Adolph Ruth, the mystery.

[zentull]

El Dorado,


Will do as you requested.

'Over the Mountains
Of the Moon,
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,'
The shade replied, -
'If you seek for Eldorado!'

[djui5]

also did the 4000 gold bars disapear like posts on this forum or are they still waiting to get picked up by the people here who know the location?

How do you know about this?

[eldorado]

Mr. Zentull,

Yes Eldorado is an elusive goal. Your poem says it well. Try this:

I have given thee the gold countries:
given thee what is in them of electrum,
lapis lazuli, and malachite.
--An epistle to Seti I from the Sun God
as given in the inscription in the Temple
at Edfu, Egypt circa 1300 B.C.
Gold has always been with us and always will be.
What it does to a man`s heart is the issue.

Mr. Saguaro

As far as I know the Dawg and the Saint never got paid. That is when the floaters started appearing. I believe they stayed pretty nuts ongoing.

I really don`t know what happened to the 4000 items. My bet is they are still stashed either in Needle Canyon or West Boulder Canyon.

Novice

Walt/Walter Glasser for the purists out there did not come back to the Superstitions at the end of his life to look for anything. He came back to be with close friends, celebrate the LDM, and have a little fun. With his untimely passing Mr X simply finished up what Mr. Gassler started. Confused a lot of people and that was the intent.

Personally I would be more interested in West Boulder Canyon, high up on the east side. There are things still in there.

In fact every question surrounding the Ruth business can be answered in that hole. Find the adit that the dawg and the saint missed. Get a shovel and see for yourself.


Mr. Ribaudo

Good to see you got the material.



E.

[zentull]

Adolph Ruth now according to the forum has several very distant locations he was either searching and/or murdered in. Why would the body be transported to Black Top Mesa from any of these locations?

It would seem the initial searches and area of most likely discovery would be the general Willow springs vicinity.

Also walt Gassler implies the body could have been removed from elsewhere than what Tex suggested. Why would he mention this and not discredit the entire story?

[zentull]

If it is any consolation guys, I rarely know what I am talking about......

While the number of posts is very limited at this time and spread among just a few members, the actual viewings are business as usual.

I was glad we got the Ruth,Cravey and Gassler topics some play. As with other subjects Joe has told me from day one that I may not see the responses I am hoping for. I am persistent though. It isn't about what you say, but what you leave behind. The knowledge dwindles with the people.

Early on so many subjects got just a few token posts than were dropped...

I have a topic I will post soon I hope will at least bring a few token responses.......

[eldorado]

Mr. Ribaudo,

I was here exactly because of the reasons put in my posts. My business is completed with a party concerning an old debt and I have no reason to continue posting.

If you read my posts you would see that the ledger I was reading off of was quite old. I simply could not make out the name. I do not know everyone that we do business with. In some instances that is intentional.

Randy,

If you are interested in the Ruth business I added a bit of information to my last post that will help.


Now gentlemen I have a card game at Benny Binion`s old place in Las Vegas. A individual needs to be relieved of his money. Mr. Binion`s demise made the Ruth affair look like a walk in the park. He had one hell of a ride. Damn good looking woman.

Have a great life


E.

[Frederick Boyd]

Mr Saguaro,

OK. Let us hope that we can get back to business now. Just give the members a chance.

I am sure the next post about someones great grandmother being related to Adolph Ruth twice removed on his grandfathers side will be just as thrilling and infomrative as the last 3000 posts relating to geneology have been!!!

Seriously. though. Just give it a chance. The forums have always gone through slow times. It will pick up again, I hope.

Frederick Boyd

[don]

getting back to the post content ....does anybody else even entertain the thought that ruth wasnt murdered at all?

[Frederick Boyd]

Mr Saguaro

See what I mean? This cracks me up when you guys fight.

Frederick Boyd

[Frederick Boyd]

This is too crazy for me.

Goodbye.

Frederick Boyd

[zentull]

I do not believe Adolph Ruth died of natural causes. There are a number of things that play that route, but it is flimsy evidence.

One thing is the search was primarily done in the vicinity of his camp and surrounding areas. The area the body was found in was not an area they may have expected to locate him in. However that means the information and details of the map that are said to have been revealed to a number of people did not happen.

An argument against this would be Walter Gasslers info concerning Tex Barkley moving the body. Walter isn't convinced of the location, but believes he moved it. There is no reason to tell this story the way it is written unless it was somehow factual. Walter took the facts with him, but left a puzzle behind. I do not believe it was just the simple case of a sense of humor.

[eldorado]

Mr. Zentull,

I know you will be glad to hear I won, and had a great night of well what happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas.

Couldn`t resist one more thought. Ruth was stashed in the Mine by the Saint and the Dawg until they moved the gold bars out. The last thing they wanted was too much attention in their area of interest.

Once everything was shipped out and things quited down a bit they simply relocated him and created a real mess. Ruth did get a free tour of the mountains anyway. One piece at a time.

Gassler was not involved with this craziness. He was just a good man who did a hell of a lot of good. At the end he returned home to the place in the mountains that was and is special.

What Gassler accomplished was to help preserve and safeguard things that as you can see from this board are still in danger.

By the way did you know Benny Binion hid more precious metals in the desert than the Peraltas. He hid a hell of a lot of silver in a buried vault near Parumph, Nevada before he went to the other side.

Man women can be cold.


E.

[djui5]

Ruth was stashed in the Mine by the Saint and the Dawg until they moved the gold bars out.
E.

E.,
You say "mine", yet it was full of gold bars. Was this an empty shaft? Or was it a cave created to stash the gold bars in? Were the gold bars from the mine itself? Did they mine the ore, smelt it down and make gold bars out of it?

[novice]

I was curious about the trail the Expedition took that found the Ruth Skull.

According to Harvey Mott, staff writer for the Arizona Republic the pack train left First Water to travel to Charlebois Canyon.

The route traveled through a wild and tangled canyon and across West Boulder Creek. We reached East Boulder Creek and headed abruptly over a divide. It was tortuous going, both on the long climb and on the steep descent. We were glad to take it easy across the floor of the canyon at the bottom before beginning another climb.

They found the skull in this section of the trail.

We finally resumed our trail and more than an hour later we came to Charlebois Canyon, refreshing scenic spot in the midst of a barren country.

Tex Barkley also had a corral built there which they used. (Charlebois Canyon)

Can someone walk me through this trail using present day topo map features that relate to Mott's description? Is this basically the "Dutchman's Trail"?

Thanks,

Garry

[djui5]

I believe this is the general path they took...



click this, then click it again when the new window opens with the map. It's a bit wide...

[novice]

Randy,

Thanks for the map. It is better than anything I have. I hope everything now is somewhat clear but I wouldn't bet on it. It this an online map or one you scanned?

1. The wild and tangled canyon was First Water Creek?

2. After reaching East Boulder we headed over a divide which was Bull Pass?

3. After the descent we moved across the floor of the canyon which was Needle Canyon?

It appears to me that you cross the Needle Canyon stream bed approximately a mile above it's confluence with Boulder Canyon? It looks like a rather flat open area and there is not much of a ridge at all that separates it from flowing into La Barge?

This flat seems to me to be where the skull was found?

4. Before beginning another climb which would be up La Barge Canyon to Charlebois Canyon?

I would appreciate anyone's critique of the above. Do I have some things wrong? I'm particularly interested in the terrain where the skull was found. Needle Canyon doesn't appear deep here at all? Was the skull found on the East or West side of the stream bed?

Garry

[zentull]

Garry,

The group entered at the First Water ranch and went to Garden Valley first. They had been in the mountains for 5 days before discovering Ruths skull. I believe they came down East Boulder canyon and took the Dutchman across the southside of Black Top.
They continued on to Charley boy after that.

I have only seen a dozen or so photos from the expedition, though there should be a report somewhere of where they visited.

[novice]

Zentull,

When you say they came "down" East Boulder, do you mean down stream? Why do you feel they were in upper East Boulder Canyon? Does this route match Mott's trail description?

I have reread the Harvey Mott article in the December 20, 1931 Arizona Republic, that was published in the 2002 Superstition Mountain Journal (Ruth Skull: The Left and Right Sides, by Greg Davis)

My sense is that Mott is only writing about the December 11 trip when he states they started out from First Water. I believe they were regrouping at First Water after the Garden Valley Prehistoric Village visit. The weather had been rainy and their explorations had been limited and their plans were go into the heart of the mountains to another site for an extended period.

I tried to use some excerpts from the Mott article in the previous posts and they may not have been clear but I suspect you have the complete article? If I'm off base here or you don't have access to the article, please let me know.

Garry

[novice]

Zentull did take me aside on this thread in an effort to save me from embarrassing myself. I do appreciate his thoughtfulness and concern but sometimes you have to let people make their own mistakes and learn the hard way. I know that Dr. Glover has suggested the skull would have had to have rolled up hill to be where it was found.

My scenario of the discovery of Adolph Ruth's skull follows. 99% of it is derived from the Harvey Mott stories appearing in the Arizona Republic Newspaper and maps furnished by Zentull, Randy and the hiking book of Carlson and Stewart.

The reason I place so much faith in the Mott account is that he was actually there when the skull was discovered, he was a professional whose job it was to report information factually, he had no ax to grind and his account was only a few days following the event. For me, it doesn't get much better!

The Archaeology Expedition pack train left First Water fairly early the morning of December 11, 1931. Included in the party were Richie Lewis (Outfitter), Brownie Holmes (Guide), E. D. Newcomer (Newspaper Photographer) Odd Halseth (Archeologist) and Harvey Mott (Newspaper Writer). The pack train consisted of 11 horses, and included four hunting dogs. This is one area I am unclear as to what Mott's meaning was. Were there 6 pack horses and 5 riding horses or were there 11 pack animals and the 5 riding animals? This might have a minor impact on my image later on when the skull was discovered. Anyone?

From First Water, the party moved up the present day Dutchman Trail and crossed West Boulder Creek. They reached East Boulder and headed abruptly over a divide (Bull Pass). They finally reached the floor of the canyon (Needle) and were enjoying the respite from the long climb and steep descent and preparing for another climb that would take them to their destination in Charlebois Canyon.

The area they were moving through is relatively flat. The following is my image of the pack train moving across this flat area.

Mott states they were traveling single file, which would indicate to me, that with eleven animals (or 16 animals?), they were spread out for considerable distance. At 15 feet per animal it would have been over 50 yards from front to rear. (Jesse could certainly provide a better estimate).

The dogs belonged to Richie Lewis and one named "Spot" along with two others were out in front along with Brownie Holmes who was picking out the best possible route for the train to follow. Behind Brownie came E. D. Newcomer, carefully leading the pack horses carrying all his cameras and plates. Strung out behind were all the pack horses, running loose but keeping faithfully to the trail broken by the riders ahead. Richie Lewis was roaming about keeping the outfit in line. Odd Halseth and Harvey Mott were bringing up the rear.

Again Mott's words "Near us (Halseth and Mott) roamed Music, head hung down, indifferently following his supposed duties of hunting out lion tracks. Suddenly he broke away to the right. He didn't bay, and we didn't think he'd found a scent, so we were on the point of calling him into line when we noticed what he had found." (Ruth's Skull)

It seems clear to me that Mott is stating that Music was not up front with Brownie and the other three dogs, but was near the rear of the pack train with Mott and Halseth when he left the trail and found the skull.

The reason for all of this detail is to question the popular story that Brownie was somehow involved, placed the skull under the tree and led the expedition to the skull so that they would find it. For me this story just doesn't square with Mott's description!

Brownie and three of the dogs had already passed the discovery site and it appears that the rest of the group were about to pass the site when Music discovered the skull. Unless Brownie had talked with Music earlier, the story doesn't make sense to me?

This has no impact on whether Ruth was murdered or not but I hate to see history changed and Brownie take an undeserved rap because of unfounded speculation. If someone is looking for the murderer and their accomplices, I think they might do well to look beyond Brownie.

Since I have been so verbose, I'm going to go walker12 one better.

This is just my $.03 worth.

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

A lot can be seen from the back of a horse, especially in the Superstition Mountains.

I don't know if Brownie had anything to do with what happened to Adolph Ruth, but if he did, I imagine he would not want to be the one to point out the skull. Two dogs and a large party of men, all looking for signs of historical significance, and you might hope someone/something else would be the "finder".

You are doing a good job of trying to picture the locations, but until you are standing on the ground, you will be a long way from any conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

[novice]

Harvey Mott was one of five people standing (or sitting astride a horse) on the ground that day and he told the story to thousands of people within a few days.

I can certainly do my "own share of speculation" but you frequently ask for something a little longer in tooth?

The most convincing thing that could be done to change my mind, would be to provide evidence that discounts Mott's story.

There are a lot of other improbables about Brownie or Tex placing the skull to be found. The detail mechanics of such an act leave much to be desired in my mind. When, Why, How etc.

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

I was not saying that anyone's story, in particular, was not factual. No one knows for sure, but I believe you are right in believing Mott's story.

With the Ruth story you just have to wonder where the truth gets set aside. In my opinion, it get's sidetracked when he arrives at the Quarter Circle U, and never gets back on a straight track from that point.

All of the sources are dead now, and those who are still around telling their stories, may have a few reliablity problems. Even if they are telling it exactly as it was told to them, the original source may not have told the entire truth.

Just about every story that has come out of those mountains has some kernel of truth in it. I believe most of the stories have been changed just enough to lead the researcher astray.

Many of the stories are kept alive by those with a vested interest in their survival.

I have always maintained that if someone like you, finally puts all of the clues together, in the proper order, and finds the end of the Stone Map trail or the LDM, he will find that someone else has already been there years ahead of him and cleaned out the location. They will find an empty hole in the ground.

That assumes there ever was an actual treasure or mine in the first place.

Personally, I believe there was a treasure, as well as (at least) one mine.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

There are at least 5 noted spots where Adolph Ruths skull has been located. Mott claims it was to the right off the trail along Bull pass.

Dr Glover places the skull at the foot of Bluff Spring mountain.

In those 2 cases look at the topography of how the skull would have to travel from the other remains.

I would hope that someday the interviews with Brownie would become part of a public archive. I believe some of the problem lies in what Brownie said about the discovery.

Mott was not as familiar with the mountains as the others and may have figured afterwards he was in one place along the trail, when he was actually somewhere else.

Motts public account differs a little from Brownies. The differences as small as they seem are mountains apart.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zen,

You could add Sims Ely's location to the mix.

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

It was one of the five I was mentioning. I thought the two I mentioned were very nice contrasts. This poses 2 questions: Where is the actual site and why so many different sites that are so spread out ?


I was hoping to get out Saturday and take some pictures of a few sites from various angles to help Garry since he is at a disadvantage, but I got stuck with babysitting.