Sims Ely places the spot 100 feet up from West Boulder canyon (P. 8 THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE)
Dr Glover places the spot below the Magill camp just off the Dutchman trail at the base of Bluff Springs mountain. (P. 303 THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE OF JACOB WALTZ)
The Superstition hikers guide places near the Bull Pass Dutchman pass intersection (P. 147 HIKERS GUIDE TO THE SUPERSTITION WILDERNESS)
Barry Storm has it at the base of Bluff Springs mountain near "Ruth's canyon junction" (P. 100 THUNDER GODS GOLD)
Brownie Holmes just mentions the expedition in passing with no note of where they were. ( P. 148 THE HOLMES MANUSCRIPT)
Estee Conaster has Ruth's skull being located on Black Top Mesa (P. 57 THE STERLING LEGEND)
Five possible locations, near and far from one another. The only eyewitness has nothing to contribute in his own story.
Adolph Ruth, the mystery.
-
Gene Reynolds
- Part Timer
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:09 pm
Ruth left more
Just a quick for what it's worth...................Glenn did not have the other map or maps at the time he spoke to erwin - nor did he have other things that Erwin could not locate at this time period - Some have since been found - others are still being looked for at present. Glenn looked for what he had at the time - but more has been found since then which shows Glenn was in the WRONG MOUNTAIN. If Ruth was going in the direction I beleive he was - it would not have been near Bluff Springs or even close, as I at one time thought, as Glenn also did.
Later guys,
Good Luck,
Gene Reynolds
Later guys,
Good Luck,
Gene Reynolds
Writer of Borrego 13
Location of Adolph Ruth's Body and Head in the Supers
I have posted a topo map in the Members Archive section under "Roger's Album" that shows the locations in the Superstitions where Adolph Ruth's body and head were found. Here are where they are marked:
Ruth's Body: Find the word "Needle Canyon" on the West side of Bluff Springs Mtn. Just left of the word "Needle", will find a small cross marked "Ruth Site". This is where Ruth's body was found and is the same location as shown in Barry Storms's book, Thunder God's Gold.
Ruth's Skull: Above the NW end of Bluff Spring Mtn is the word "Spanish Race Track" and just below it is a cross and the label "Ruth's Skull". This specific location was determined in the field by using the Newcomers photographs, compass, plotting board, glass and walkie talkies. It is probably as specific a spot as one will get to with today's available documentation. I am not at liberty to divulge who did this work.
From these two locations and the distance between them, I don't think Ruth's skull simply rolled down hill. My guess would be that animals scavanged the corpse and drug the skull some distance as it would have remained "green" longer and attracted animals longer. It would be hard to believe that anyone in the expedition that found Ruth's skull would have known where it was located. Someone involved in murdering Ruth if that was the case, would have known where his body was left, but the skull was moved some distance from the body and how would they have known where to look?
Food for thought.
Roger
Ruth's Body: Find the word "Needle Canyon" on the West side of Bluff Springs Mtn. Just left of the word "Needle", will find a small cross marked "Ruth Site". This is where Ruth's body was found and is the same location as shown in Barry Storms's book, Thunder God's Gold.
Ruth's Skull: Above the NW end of Bluff Spring Mtn is the word "Spanish Race Track" and just below it is a cross and the label "Ruth's Skull". This specific location was determined in the field by using the Newcomers photographs, compass, plotting board, glass and walkie talkies. It is probably as specific a spot as one will get to with today's available documentation. I am not at liberty to divulge who did this work.
From these two locations and the distance between them, I don't think Ruth's skull simply rolled down hill. My guess would be that animals scavanged the corpse and drug the skull some distance as it would have remained "green" longer and attracted animals longer. It would be hard to believe that anyone in the expedition that found Ruth's skull would have known where it was located. Someone involved in murdering Ruth if that was the case, would have known where his body was left, but the skull was moved some distance from the body and how would they have known where to look?
Food for thought.
Roger
I believe Mott said the skull was to the right of the group as they went down the trail. This would only make sense if they were sitting backwards on the horses or coming from the wrong direction. While this puts them in the Spanish Race track area better, it makes even less sense on the skull getting to that location without manipulation. It appears to be the only bit of remains to have traveled in such a way and its setting just seems a bit contrived, regardless of which location you favor.
Again it is another variation on the story. Why so many stories ?
Again it is another variation on the story. Why so many stories ?
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Ruth And Where He Died
Roger,
Not sure I would bet the farm on Barry Storm's "Ruth Site".
Are we looking for the LDM here, or picking over old bones? Adolph Ruth was not looking for Waltz's mine, he had bigger fish to fry.
If we are following Ruth's trail, perhaps we should entice Gene Reynolds back into the conversation.
Adolph Ruth did not walk to where his skull was found. On the other hand, it's quite possible that he hiked to where his bones came to rest. Where was that....again?
Joe Ribaudo
Not sure I would bet the farm on Barry Storm's "Ruth Site".
Are we looking for the LDM here, or picking over old bones? Adolph Ruth was not looking for Waltz's mine, he had bigger fish to fry.
If we are following Ruth's trail, perhaps we should entice Gene Reynolds back into the conversation.
Adolph Ruth did not walk to where his skull was found. On the other hand, it's quite possible that he hiked to where his bones came to rest. Where was that....again?Joe Ribaudo
Picking over Bones!
Roger, Interesting post and thanks for the photo.!
Zentull had told me that the Newcomer photos existed but it had never occurred to me that they might be used to pinpoint the location. I would certainly be interested in the mechanics of how it was done. I assume you were able to identify verifiable terrain features in the background of Newcomer's photos and work backward from there? I can't get the methodology clear it my mind unless it was done with numerous iterations? Even then I would have to make some assumptions that would introduce some amount of error. How close do you think your are with a fair amount of certainty? Within a 300 ft dia circle, a 600 ft circle, etc. I don't believe it makes much difference, as long as we are in the general area but from an old engineer's viewpoint, it is certainly fascinating!
Joe,
I don't believe Roger is saying that he is using the Storm account to locate the site of the skull? It seems to me they were working "strictly" from photos.
Picking over dead bones? Maybe, but people continue to use these old dead bones to further their account of the story. If you buy into the story that Ruth knew something special, perhaps where his remains were found and how he met his end might be clues. Unless of course, his body was moved there, his body was buried and someone dug it up and the remains were placed there, he was held hostage and murdered much later, and on and on it goes. OR if you believe he was an old fool who didn't have a clue of what he wanted to do or where he was going, then someone can (and have) come up with speculation to address that scenario. It never ends!
Roger has dipped his toe into the water questioning, the reasonability of HOW the head could have been placed to be found. I don't expect anyone will soon layout their theory in any detail about how, when and who placed the skull where it was found. If they were to do so I suspect that many would pounce on all of the improbables in their scenario. I know from my own perspective it's MUCH EASIER to pose questions than to offer solutions.
Are we looking for the Lost Dutchman Mine or ... It certainly wasn't me that tied Adolph Ruth to Jacob Waltz.
Zentull,
I'm not having to sit the riders on their horses backward to make Mott's account work?
I know from your post earlier that you don't believe the party was coming from First Water but instead down East Boulder Canyon, across Upper Blacktop Mesa Pass and down Needle Canyon and on to Charlebois. (I hope I've got that right!) But, if someone does believe they were coming across the flats from First Water and Bull Pass then Mott's account seems to make perfect sense with Roger's location. (At least to me, today?)
Garry
Zentull had told me that the Newcomer photos existed but it had never occurred to me that they might be used to pinpoint the location. I would certainly be interested in the mechanics of how it was done. I assume you were able to identify verifiable terrain features in the background of Newcomer's photos and work backward from there? I can't get the methodology clear it my mind unless it was done with numerous iterations? Even then I would have to make some assumptions that would introduce some amount of error. How close do you think your are with a fair amount of certainty? Within a 300 ft dia circle, a 600 ft circle, etc. I don't believe it makes much difference, as long as we are in the general area but from an old engineer's viewpoint, it is certainly fascinating!
Joe,
I don't believe Roger is saying that he is using the Storm account to locate the site of the skull? It seems to me they were working "strictly" from photos.
Picking over dead bones? Maybe, but people continue to use these old dead bones to further their account of the story. If you buy into the story that Ruth knew something special, perhaps where his remains were found and how he met his end might be clues. Unless of course, his body was moved there, his body was buried and someone dug it up and the remains were placed there, he was held hostage and murdered much later, and on and on it goes. OR if you believe he was an old fool who didn't have a clue of what he wanted to do or where he was going, then someone can (and have) come up with speculation to address that scenario. It never ends!
Roger has dipped his toe into the water questioning, the reasonability of HOW the head could have been placed to be found. I don't expect anyone will soon layout their theory in any detail about how, when and who placed the skull where it was found. If they were to do so I suspect that many would pounce on all of the improbables in their scenario. I know from my own perspective it's MUCH EASIER to pose questions than to offer solutions.
Are we looking for the Lost Dutchman Mine or ... It certainly wasn't me that tied Adolph Ruth to Jacob Waltz.
Zentull,
I'm not having to sit the riders on their horses backward to make Mott's account work?
I know from your post earlier that you don't believe the party was coming from First Water but instead down East Boulder Canyon, across Upper Blacktop Mesa Pass and down Needle Canyon and on to Charlebois. (I hope I've got that right!) But, if someone does believe they were coming across the flats from First Water and Bull Pass then Mott's account seems to make perfect sense with Roger's location. (At least to me, today?)Garry
I think it would be worth noting that the photographs of the area of Ruth's remains are where they were gathered to be brought out of the mountains. The remains were found spread out.
Also the skull was identified as Ruth's by his dentist. I suppose there were xrays and they went by the jaw structure or something else........Ruth's dentures were found by Adams and Barkley.
I find very little correlation between the Newcomer photos of the remains and Storms area.
I find most intriguing statements concerning the 1/2 buried skull that was revealed only by the heavy rains. That was a very nice critter that set the skull down in such a photogenic way..........
Still it is too bad Brownie had pretty much nothing to say about all of this.
Regardless if we agree to disagree, why so many locations for something by so many reputable people?
Also the skull was identified as Ruth's by his dentist. I suppose there were xrays and they went by the jaw structure or something else........Ruth's dentures were found by Adams and Barkley.
I find very little correlation between the Newcomer photos of the remains and Storms area.
I find most intriguing statements concerning the 1/2 buried skull that was revealed only by the heavy rains. That was a very nice critter that set the skull down in such a photogenic way..........
Still it is too bad Brownie had pretty much nothing to say about all of this.
Regardless if we agree to disagree, why so many locations for something by so many reputable people?
Ruth's Body and Skull Locations
Let me clear up a question on the topo map I put in "Roger's Album" in the Member Archive:
1. The Ruth body site is the specific location from Barry Storm's book, Thunder Gods Gold.
2. The Ruth skull site was determined by taking the Newcomer photo's and the knowledge of where the general location that the skull was and then using the terrain in the photos with mapping/triangulation to arrive at the spot the skull was found. The Necomer photo's are not of the body site, they are of the skull site.
Other people did this work and I only have the topo map that resulted from it. I can't offer a measure of accuracy on the specific location, but would believe that the location is on the correct side of the trail.
Hope this clears the question up.
Roger
1. The Ruth body site is the specific location from Barry Storm's book, Thunder Gods Gold.
2. The Ruth skull site was determined by taking the Newcomer photo's and the knowledge of where the general location that the skull was and then using the terrain in the photos with mapping/triangulation to arrive at the spot the skull was found. The Necomer photo's are not of the body site, they are of the skull site.
Other people did this work and I only have the topo map that resulted from it. I can't offer a measure of accuracy on the specific location, but would believe that the location is on the correct side of the trail.
Hope this clears the question up.
Roger
Dirrerent Stories from Reputable Individuals?
Zentull and Roger,
Do you think that your each speaking of different of photos?
Zentull,
I guess I don't find it all that strange that there are so many locations for the skull. All of the "reputable" sources were recording their accounts sometime after the events.
I would offer an interesting exercise which I think reflects how things get changed with time. We all know that Bark and Ely were close allies and reputable individuals. I would simply encourage anyone to read their separate words in detail, regarding the Ruth story, and see how many differences they can find. I suspect you can find 15 or 20 easily. This kind of analysis may drive Joe crazy since many of these discrepancies don't have any apparent impact on the overall story and is simply hissing and spitting. But on the other hand we will pull something else from one of their stories and quote it as gospel. I just ask why all of the confidence?
I know Barry Storm is considered a scoundrel by some and Ely is a paragon of virtue therefore his account is more reliable? I believe Storm may have done more actual research that Ely and some of his stories may be closer to the truth. I just wouldn't take either's account to the bank without some backup!
I will share another opinion that I have recently reached after studying Dr. Hrdlicka's letter and the Newspaper articles. (You alluded to Ruth's dentist) I don't believe Adolph Ruth's dentist ever saw the skull let alone made a positive identification of it being the skull of Ruth, yet that is exactly what Ely states.
From the Arizona Republic of December 13, 1931
"Dr. Claude M. Moore, dental surgeon, said he upper jaw showed that the person whose skull it was had either worn false teeth or had been for many years without teeth. The upper jaw was worn smooth and gave no indication of tooth sockets." (The lower jaws had not been found yet.)
Odd Halseth;
"It gives many indications," he said, "of being a skull of comparatively recent date. I have seen and excavated skulls hundreds of years old, however bearing an equivalent amount of skin and in somewhat the same condition, dependent upon the climate. The skull is not, however, definitely Indian in type and may readily be that of a white man and of Dr. Ruth.
From the Phoenix Gazette December 14, 1931
Odd S. Halseth, leader of the expedition sent into the Superstition mountains by the archaeological commission of the city of Phoenix and the Arizona Republic, that found the skull is preparing to send it to the National Museum in Washington D. C., to determine whether it is that of an Indian or a white man.
From the Hrdlicka letter:
On December 19, 1931, I received a human skull shipped from Phoenix, Arizona by Odd S. Halseth who stated that he had found it in the Superstition Mountains of Arizona, and that it was possibly that of Adolph Ruth of Washington D. C. who disappeared in those mountains during the month of June, 1931.
Impressions that I held from Ely and previous posts that have changed:
1. The only dentist who examined the skull was in Phoenix and the only thing he could tell was the fellow hadn't had teeth for quite a spell. (Jaw was worn smooth and there were no teeth sockets)
2. Halseth and Hrdlicka didn't appear to have any major disagreements. Halseth states the skull "may readily be that of a white man and Adolph Ruth." (This impression didn't come from Ely, but from posts on the forum.)
3. It was shipped directly to Dr. Hdrlicka in Washington D. C. by Dr. Halseth for study. (Not by Erwin Ruth and it did not pass through the hands of Adolph's Dentist)
4. It was Earl Ruth who coordinated with Dr. Hrdlicka's investigation in Washington. (Not Erwin Ruth)
I just believe it's simply "another" case of Ely getting it wrong. Does it matter? It depends on what you are looking for. To me it's as important as Ely's statement that the skull was found "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor." Again I don't believe Ely was trying to mislead anyone, he had simply misunderstood where the skull was discovered.
Garry
Do you think that your each speaking of different of photos?
Zentull,
I guess I don't find it all that strange that there are so many locations for the skull. All of the "reputable" sources were recording their accounts sometime after the events.
I would offer an interesting exercise which I think reflects how things get changed with time. We all know that Bark and Ely were close allies and reputable individuals. I would simply encourage anyone to read their separate words in detail, regarding the Ruth story, and see how many differences they can find. I suspect you can find 15 or 20 easily. This kind of analysis may drive Joe crazy since many of these discrepancies don't have any apparent impact on the overall story and is simply hissing and spitting. But on the other hand we will pull something else from one of their stories and quote it as gospel. I just ask why all of the confidence?
I know Barry Storm is considered a scoundrel by some and Ely is a paragon of virtue therefore his account is more reliable? I believe Storm may have done more actual research that Ely and some of his stories may be closer to the truth. I just wouldn't take either's account to the bank without some backup!
I will share another opinion that I have recently reached after studying Dr. Hrdlicka's letter and the Newspaper articles. (You alluded to Ruth's dentist) I don't believe Adolph Ruth's dentist ever saw the skull let alone made a positive identification of it being the skull of Ruth, yet that is exactly what Ely states.
From the Arizona Republic of December 13, 1931
"Dr. Claude M. Moore, dental surgeon, said he upper jaw showed that the person whose skull it was had either worn false teeth or had been for many years without teeth. The upper jaw was worn smooth and gave no indication of tooth sockets." (The lower jaws had not been found yet.)
Odd Halseth;
"It gives many indications," he said, "of being a skull of comparatively recent date. I have seen and excavated skulls hundreds of years old, however bearing an equivalent amount of skin and in somewhat the same condition, dependent upon the climate. The skull is not, however, definitely Indian in type and may readily be that of a white man and of Dr. Ruth.
From the Phoenix Gazette December 14, 1931
Odd S. Halseth, leader of the expedition sent into the Superstition mountains by the archaeological commission of the city of Phoenix and the Arizona Republic, that found the skull is preparing to send it to the National Museum in Washington D. C., to determine whether it is that of an Indian or a white man.
From the Hrdlicka letter:
On December 19, 1931, I received a human skull shipped from Phoenix, Arizona by Odd S. Halseth who stated that he had found it in the Superstition Mountains of Arizona, and that it was possibly that of Adolph Ruth of Washington D. C. who disappeared in those mountains during the month of June, 1931.
Impressions that I held from Ely and previous posts that have changed:
1. The only dentist who examined the skull was in Phoenix and the only thing he could tell was the fellow hadn't had teeth for quite a spell. (Jaw was worn smooth and there were no teeth sockets)
2. Halseth and Hrdlicka didn't appear to have any major disagreements. Halseth states the skull "may readily be that of a white man and Adolph Ruth." (This impression didn't come from Ely, but from posts on the forum.)
3. It was shipped directly to Dr. Hdrlicka in Washington D. C. by Dr. Halseth for study. (Not by Erwin Ruth and it did not pass through the hands of Adolph's Dentist)
4. It was Earl Ruth who coordinated with Dr. Hrdlicka's investigation in Washington. (Not Erwin Ruth)
I just believe it's simply "another" case of Ely getting it wrong. Does it matter? It depends on what you are looking for. To me it's as important as Ely's statement that the skull was found "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor." Again I don't believe Ely was trying to mislead anyone, he had simply misunderstood where the skull was discovered.
Garry
I posted this in the other topic, but it has equal relevance here.
My problem with Storm has always been his enthusiasm exceeds his comprehension. I have a 45/70. I have shell casings and live rounds from the late 1880s. Barry jumps to conclusions and likes to trim the pieces of the puzzle to fit. I don't believe Ely said all that could be said and in the case of Ruth, was telling the story from a distance, but Storm tried to tell a story about heroic treasure hunter Barry Storm. Just as Brownie will not tell you about Dick Holmes.
Dr Hrdlicka received the skull on December 19th and the skull was discovered on the 12th. The group wouldn't have gotten back to Phoenix until the 13th and it is doubtful the skull was inspected by the authorities until the 14th if at all. Add in several days for shipping.......It seems Halseth may have just shipped the skull off for identification as being Ruths, because at that time it was unidentifiable. It appears the Pinal county sheriff had little or nothing to do with this.
It should also be noted there are no publicity photos of the search parties later checking that area. I believe Tex and Jeff Adams were probably sent back out afterwards in January, when the skull had been identified as Ruths, by McFadden. Oddly, it was the Maricopa group searching and located the remains in Pinal county and there is no sign of Sheriff Laveen.
The death certificate is from Maricopa county as well filed, Febuary 17 1932.
Now.......Ruth was camped in Pinal county, his skull was found in Pinal county and his remains were found in Pinal county. All reports indicate that everything was handled exclusively by Maricopa county. Specifically former Maricopa county Sheriff Jeff Adams and Tex Barkley.
My problem with Storm has always been his enthusiasm exceeds his comprehension. I have a 45/70. I have shell casings and live rounds from the late 1880s. Barry jumps to conclusions and likes to trim the pieces of the puzzle to fit. I don't believe Ely said all that could be said and in the case of Ruth, was telling the story from a distance, but Storm tried to tell a story about heroic treasure hunter Barry Storm. Just as Brownie will not tell you about Dick Holmes.
Dr Hrdlicka received the skull on December 19th and the skull was discovered on the 12th. The group wouldn't have gotten back to Phoenix until the 13th and it is doubtful the skull was inspected by the authorities until the 14th if at all. Add in several days for shipping.......It seems Halseth may have just shipped the skull off for identification as being Ruths, because at that time it was unidentifiable. It appears the Pinal county sheriff had little or nothing to do with this.
It should also be noted there are no publicity photos of the search parties later checking that area. I believe Tex and Jeff Adams were probably sent back out afterwards in January, when the skull had been identified as Ruths, by McFadden. Oddly, it was the Maricopa group searching and located the remains in Pinal county and there is no sign of Sheriff Laveen.
The death certificate is from Maricopa county as well filed, Febuary 17 1932.
Now.......Ruth was camped in Pinal county, his skull was found in Pinal county and his remains were found in Pinal county. All reports indicate that everything was handled exclusively by Maricopa county. Specifically former Maricopa county Sheriff Jeff Adams and Tex Barkley.
The Dwag and the Saint
How appropriate.
A shovel.
E.
A shovel.
E.
Erwin Ruth received a letter September 2nd 1931 informing him of the exploration/search group that included Brownie. The information in that letter is how he concludes his manuscript.
Brownie Holmes claims that the search group was formed after he discovered the vandalism in Garden Valley in November 1931. He discusses the reasons behind the trip in greater detail than the actual discovery of the skull.
Was the search group in the letter active prior to December 1931 is what I am wondering. Tex Barkley, it is said, was originally asked to guide this group we are told. I wonder if there were problems getting it off the ground in it's original form with Tex and Jeff Adams and the December group was just loosely connected to the original idea.
Brownie Holmes claims that the search group was formed after he discovered the vandalism in Garden Valley in November 1931. He discusses the reasons behind the trip in greater detail than the actual discovery of the skull.
Was the search group in the letter active prior to December 1931 is what I am wondering. Tex Barkley, it is said, was originally asked to guide this group we are told. I wonder if there were problems getting it off the ground in it's original form with Tex and Jeff Adams and the December group was just loosely connected to the original idea.
Garry, I still have not located the information I read concerning Abe Reid however, I have found something else that is very interesting.
In kollenborn's book Superstition Mountain A Ride through Time, Tom states that Glen Ward a prospecting partner of his father, talked to Ruth for several hours on June 18th.
This is a very good chapter with letters from Halseth, Hrdlicka,and Jeff Adams that everone should read that is interested in the Ruth affair. It appears that Kollenborn really did his homework.
In kollenborn's book Superstition Mountain A Ride through Time, Tom states that Glen Ward a prospecting partner of his father, talked to Ruth for several hours on June 18th.
This is a very good chapter with letters from Halseth, Hrdlicka,and Jeff Adams that everone should read that is interested in the Ruth affair. It appears that Kollenborn really did his homework.
Maybe
Maybe Ruth found the same as everyone else ... nothing.
Maybe Barry Storm told the truth about what he found...just didn't understand it.
Maybe all the stories started with Abe Reid...and he's still laughing!
I think Ruth just died all by his lonesome...Tomorrow maybe I'll do a little prospecting...
I think Barry saw the LDM...a played out Spanish mine...
Abe Reid seems the inigma. I hope someday someone shares more on him.
Shelby
Maybe Barry Storm told the truth about what he found...just didn't understand it.
Maybe all the stories started with Abe Reid...and he's still laughing!
I think Ruth just died all by his lonesome...Tomorrow maybe I'll do a little prospecting...
I think Barry saw the LDM...a played out Spanish mine...
Abe Reid seems the inigma. I hope someday someone shares more on him.
Shelby
Glen Ward
Terry,
Thanks for the heads up on Glen Ward! I don’t have Tom’s Book but looks like I need to run it down. I have read all of his accounts on the Apache Junction Library web site. Tom has a story called Murder Conspiracy at the Circle U Ranch. In it he said that “someone” on the internet suggested that Abe Reid, Milton Rose, Jack Keenan and Leroy Purnell conspired to murder Adolph Ruth at the Circle Quarter U. Tom’s opinion is pretty straight forward. Any conspiracy is ridiculous and Adolph simply got himself in a bad situation and didn’t survive the elements.
This is where I got the story of the sighting of Ruth near the brush corral south of West Boulder Canyon on the day he apparently went missing. This must have been Glen Ward and Tom states that this encounter was recorded in the man’s prospecting journal.
Just curious if this Glen Ward was tied in any way to Bob Ward?
Garry
Thanks for the heads up on Glen Ward! I don’t have Tom’s Book but looks like I need to run it down. I have read all of his accounts on the Apache Junction Library web site. Tom has a story called Murder Conspiracy at the Circle U Ranch. In it he said that “someone” on the internet suggested that Abe Reid, Milton Rose, Jack Keenan and Leroy Purnell conspired to murder Adolph Ruth at the Circle Quarter U. Tom’s opinion is pretty straight forward. Any conspiracy is ridiculous and Adolph simply got himself in a bad situation and didn’t survive the elements.
This is where I got the story of the sighting of Ruth near the brush corral south of West Boulder Canyon on the day he apparently went missing. This must have been Glen Ward and Tom states that this encounter was recorded in the man’s prospecting journal.
Just curious if this Glen Ward was tied in any way to Bob Ward?
Garry
I reaaly don't believe Tom Kollenborn or anyone else who has visited those sites believes for a moment there wasn't some sort of hijinx concerning Ruths remains though.
While sitting at one of the campfires at the rendevous one Dutch hunter was very adamant about where Ruths skull and remains were and did not give the conspiracy theories much credence.
When asked how the skull got where it was found, he quickly said "Someone put it there".
I am sure there was a lot of speculation on what happened and who dunnit from all those concerned. Of course the fact that Tex Barkley and Brownie Holmes both made public statements saying adamantly that Ruth was murdered and they were there should hold some weight.
While sitting at one of the campfires at the rendevous one Dutch hunter was very adamant about where Ruths skull and remains were and did not give the conspiracy theories much credence.
When asked how the skull got where it was found, he quickly said "Someone put it there".
I am sure there was a lot of speculation on what happened and who dunnit from all those concerned. Of course the fact that Tex Barkley and Brownie Holmes both made public statements saying adamantly that Ruth was murdered and they were there should hold some weight.
"Be Careful of What You Do Before A Lie Becomes The Truth"
When asked how the skull got where it was found, he quickly said "Someone put it there".
That would be correct. Anyone that has hiked West Boulder will tell you that there's no way in hell a limp man, walking with a cane in his "normal" shoes, with nothing but a bottle of water made it to where Ruth was found from Willow Springs, in the middle of July when it takes more than a gallon of water to survive a day. It's about as impossible as anything really.
Not only that, anyone who can look at that skull and tell me square in the eye that Ruth was NOT murdered is a patent LIAR, or is so detached from reality they should be on meds
No offense to anyone. "It doesn't take a rocket scientist"
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Ruth And Where He Died.....
Randy,
A few "early" writers mention a different location for the Ruth remains.
Ely writes on page 8: "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor, one of the dogs came upon a skull-to which particles of flesh still adhered."
The detail of the distance "above the canyon floor" seems a bit specific.
On page 9, he continues: "....Tex Barkley, did make a further search of that brushy ridge overlooking West Boulder Canyon for the body of Adollph Ruth. Their search was successful. At a considerable distance from the spot where the skull had been discovered, they found a dismembered skeleton which was easily identified.......no Spanish map or documents."
Did Ely get the truth mixed up with the "public" finding? Is it possible the bones were moved for the "public" finding? Some have speculated that is exactly what happened. It's not like he did not know Needle Canyon and Black Top Mesa like the back of his hand.
Once you begin to doubt the "First Water Ranch" story, as being how Ruth was brought into Willow Spring, a new story will begin to rise out of the ashes.
Good hunting,
Joe Ribaudo
A few "early" writers mention a different location for the Ruth remains.
Ely writes on page 8: "In the thick brush overlooking West Boulder Canyon, about one hundred feet above the canyon floor, one of the dogs came upon a skull-to which particles of flesh still adhered."
The detail of the distance "above the canyon floor" seems a bit specific.
On page 9, he continues: "....Tex Barkley, did make a further search of that brushy ridge overlooking West Boulder Canyon for the body of Adollph Ruth. Their search was successful. At a considerable distance from the spot where the skull had been discovered, they found a dismembered skeleton which was easily identified.......no Spanish map or documents."
Did Ely get the truth mixed up with the "public" finding? Is it possible the bones were moved for the "public" finding? Some have speculated that is exactly what happened. It's not like he did not know Needle Canyon and Black Top Mesa like the back of his hand.
Once you begin to doubt the "First Water Ranch" story, as being how Ruth was brought into Willow Spring, a new story will begin to rise out of the ashes.
Good hunting,
Joe Ribaudo
An unresolved question that was never answered:
Supposedly by all accounts the expedition is traveling East on the Dutchman trail. They had finished the descent from Bull Pass and were on the flat before going uphill again. In the lead is Spot and trailing him are 2 other hounds and Brownie Holmes. Newcomer is next leading the mule with his equipment. Richie Lewis is next either leading or trailing the string of horses they had. Odd Halseth and Mott bring up the rear with Music beside them.
Music darts to the right and comes to a dead stop at a Palo Verde tree........Everyone jumps off the Horses and ties them up and heads over to see what is up.
This is to the North of the trail...........
Supposedly by all accounts the expedition is traveling East on the Dutchman trail. They had finished the descent from Bull Pass and were on the flat before going uphill again. In the lead is Spot and trailing him are 2 other hounds and Brownie Holmes. Newcomer is next leading the mule with his equipment. Richie Lewis is next either leading or trailing the string of horses they had. Odd Halseth and Mott bring up the rear with Music beside them.
Music darts to the right and comes to a dead stop at a Palo Verde tree........Everyone jumps off the Horses and ties them up and heads over to see what is up.
This is to the North of the trail...........
Ruth Skull Discovery Site
Maybe I'm confused, but it they were moving east the skull would have been on the south side of the trail if it were on the right?
There is a newspaper account that identifies Odd Hasleth as being the one who actually pointed the skull out. I'd have to look up which one but I'm sure I saw it.
I haven't found many Mott mistakes and he was there and he wrote his observances within a few days of the actual event. I wouldn't dimiss any portions of his descriptions lightly.
Garry
There is a newspaper account that identifies Odd Hasleth as being the one who actually pointed the skull out. I'd have to look up which one but I'm sure I saw it.
I haven't found many Mott mistakes and he was there and he wrote his observances within a few days of the actual event. I wouldn't dimiss any portions of his descriptions lightly.
Garry
That is where I am completely lost. There is a lot that needs reconciled with the story. I wonder if because of the delays and backtracking Mott got a few things turned around? I don't know if Hiking to the spot with Greg would even fix it.
So Garry, you believe in pygmies with 4 arms and 4 legs too?
So Garry, you believe in pygmies with 4 arms and 4 legs too?
Everything is perfectly clear to me, so I can't be confused! 
I sure don't think Mott was lost at all. I think he knew exactly where they were. It was 1931 and I don't know whether there were such names as First Water Creek, Parker Pass, Bull Pass, or Marsh Valley. I do know that they don't appear on the 1900 Florence Quadrangle and that wasn't changed significantly until about 1956.
According to Mott, they got started after backfilling and other maneuvering "pretty" early from First Water Ranch to travel to Charlebois Canyon. They went up a tangled canyon (First Water Creek?) - Crossed West Boulder - Reached East Boulder and headed abruptly over a divide (Bull Pass?) - Down the other side, a steep descent (it was slow going for the pack animals), then across the canyon floor before beginning another climb.
Crossing the canyon floor they found the skull. Mott doesn't say how long they spent at the discovery site but they took some photos, packed the skull and searched nearby. Knowing it got dark early in the mountains they continued on to the mouth of Charlebois Canyon, which took over an hour. They had had no lunch and turned the horses into Tex Barkley's Charlebois Corral and Brownie fixed bacon and beans.
It all fits for me.
They must have had 4 arms. How else could they hang on the cliffs to cut the heiroglyphs? I would sugggest whistling if they bother you.
NOVICE
I sure don't think Mott was lost at all. I think he knew exactly where they were. It was 1931 and I don't know whether there were such names as First Water Creek, Parker Pass, Bull Pass, or Marsh Valley. I do know that they don't appear on the 1900 Florence Quadrangle and that wasn't changed significantly until about 1956.
According to Mott, they got started after backfilling and other maneuvering "pretty" early from First Water Ranch to travel to Charlebois Canyon. They went up a tangled canyon (First Water Creek?) - Crossed West Boulder - Reached East Boulder and headed abruptly over a divide (Bull Pass?) - Down the other side, a steep descent (it was slow going for the pack animals), then across the canyon floor before beginning another climb.
Crossing the canyon floor they found the skull. Mott doesn't say how long they spent at the discovery site but they took some photos, packed the skull and searched nearby. Knowing it got dark early in the mountains they continued on to the mouth of Charlebois Canyon, which took over an hour. They had had no lunch and turned the horses into Tex Barkley's Charlebois Corral and Brownie fixed bacon and beans.
It all fits for me.
They must have had 4 arms. How else could they hang on the cliffs to cut the heiroglyphs? I would sugggest whistling if they bother you.
NOVICE
No one else cares, but I will play devils advocate here:
Mott refers to 2nd water as 1st water on the trip to the Red Paint mine. So he wasn't that familiar with the area.
Brownie was leading them on the best possible trail he could find. If there was no trail or it was flooded and he was rerouting it becomes very suspect that he happens to pick a line within sight distance of the Skull. Did Brownie know? Either that or the perpetrators were genius's. Probably there was a trail.
Mott seems to report the trail as a fresh one from the previous trails. Most likely the old First Water trail which would have been a pain if it was flooding. Then it is across Parker pass , Brush Corral, up Bull Pass and..........
Seems the right side thing really bugs me. If it is a typo, it is a huge one. Remember too that the dog didn't make a sound. They all saw him stop and then followed his gaze to the skull. Sounds damn closer than the picture suggests. The horses seem strung out and all of them aren't even accountable for in the picture.
You need to make a trip out for some time in the mountains Garry. This one would keep us up until the morning I figure.
Mott refers to 2nd water as 1st water on the trip to the Red Paint mine. So he wasn't that familiar with the area.
Brownie was leading them on the best possible trail he could find. If there was no trail or it was flooded and he was rerouting it becomes very suspect that he happens to pick a line within sight distance of the Skull. Did Brownie know? Either that or the perpetrators were genius's. Probably there was a trail.
Mott seems to report the trail as a fresh one from the previous trails. Most likely the old First Water trail which would have been a pain if it was flooding. Then it is across Parker pass , Brush Corral, up Bull Pass and..........
Seems the right side thing really bugs me. If it is a typo, it is a huge one. Remember too that the dog didn't make a sound. They all saw him stop and then followed his gaze to the skull. Sounds damn closer than the picture suggests. The horses seem strung out and all of them aren't even accountable for in the picture.
You need to make a trip out for some time in the mountains Garry. This one would keep us up until the morning I figure.