Adolph Ruth, the mystery.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Walking and Riding
Peter and Zen,
As anyone who does not ride can tell you, there is a huge difference between hiking and riding a horse. On horseback you use muscles you never imagined you had. That six or seven mile ride over that terrain would have put Ruth into a great deal of agony by the time he reached Willow Spring.
By the next day, as he said he would be ready to do a little look-around.
I am no rider, but the Feldman's usually put me on more than a nag. By the time we made that kind of a ride, I was ready to never get on a horse again. I was a bit younger than Ruth, and presume I was in better shape.
Once again.....it had been raining at the Quarter Circle U. Normally if it is raining there, it's a pretty good bet it's coming down a lot harder in the Supes. Those mountains draw any storm that close, right into them.
In the kind of temp's that Zen mentioned, there would be pools of drinkable water for a couple of day at least. Hard rain, big pools of water in West Boulder for a number of days.....even some very nice waterfalls.
Maybe water was a problem, but, IMHO, the story does not really support that.
Joe Ribaudo
As anyone who does not ride can tell you, there is a huge difference between hiking and riding a horse. On horseback you use muscles you never imagined you had. That six or seven mile ride over that terrain would have put Ruth into a great deal of agony by the time he reached Willow Spring.
By the next day, as he said he would be ready to do a little look-around.
I am no rider, but the Feldman's usually put me on more than a nag. By the time we made that kind of a ride, I was ready to never get on a horse again. I was a bit younger than Ruth, and presume I was in better shape.
Once again.....it had been raining at the Quarter Circle U. Normally if it is raining there, it's a pretty good bet it's coming down a lot harder in the Supes. Those mountains draw any storm that close, right into them.
In the kind of temp's that Zen mentioned, there would be pools of drinkable water for a couple of day at least. Hard rain, big pools of water in West Boulder for a number of days.....even some very nice waterfalls.
Maybe water was a problem, but, IMHO, the story does not really support that.
Joe Ribaudo
Riding in.
Actually there's a huge difference between riding a horse and a burro as well.
Them short legs and all. Bounce,bounce,bounce,bounce,bounce vs. plop.......plop........plop.
Kinda tough on the seat especially with a plate right near your hip.
He even said he didn't do anything the first day. He wrote the letter on the second day. A day in which he said:
I'll gradually put things ship-shape. Sometime tomorrow morning I'll prospect some.
I always thought that was an interesting statement, "prospect some." Doesn't really give the impression he was heading to a known place. Now if he said "Sometime tomorrow morning I'll head to the area of the mine." why that would be a different story.
Them short legs and all. Bounce,bounce,bounce,bounce,bounce vs. plop.......plop........plop.
Kinda tough on the seat especially with a plate right near your hip.
He even said he didn't do anything the first day. He wrote the letter on the second day. A day in which he said:
I'll gradually put things ship-shape. Sometime tomorrow morning I'll prospect some.
I always thought that was an interesting statement, "prospect some." Doesn't really give the impression he was heading to a known place. Now if he said "Sometime tomorrow morning I'll head to the area of the mine." why that would be a different story.
I do not know if I ever met Obie Stoker. I have serious doubts that the comparison with Ruth merits much consideration. He had to be brought in, his camp set up for him and he was most likely not in good physical condition for his age. Ruth was unable to make Willow springs on his own.
I would have had a couple of burros packed up and walked them in if I was physically capable of the hike. Pretty similar distance as his supposed hike to Black Top Mesa. That Ruth needed the assistance is obvious.
Joe,
You would think it was crazy for me to expect you to hike to Black Top and back with a thermos of water in May. I believe you are more capable than Ruth was. That is if thats where he went....alone. Peters Mesa is ridiculous in my opinion in those circumstances. I don't believe Adolph expected it to be a one way hike............
I would have had a couple of burros packed up and walked them in if I was physically capable of the hike. Pretty similar distance as his supposed hike to Black Top Mesa. That Ruth needed the assistance is obvious.
Joe,
You would think it was crazy for me to expect you to hike to Black Top and back with a thermos of water in May. I believe you are more capable than Ruth was. That is if thats where he went....alone. Peters Mesa is ridiculous in my opinion in those circumstances. I don't believe Adolph expected it to be a one way hike............
Matthew,
You do make that saddle sound like a place that would be worth going to see. For as many times as I have been back into I.S. Canyon I have never seen the slightest sign of a trail in there anywhere. You mentioned that it is now overgrown. That may be why I have not seen it. I usually keep to the open areas away from the brush as much as possible. The thought of running to a snake in a confined area makes my skin crawl. Once I decided to go to the top of the ridge above the windmill where the water tank is and see what the I.S.C. looked like from above. When I finally made it to a point where I could see down into I.S.C. it looked like the Grand Canyon with no possible access down into it from where I was. I had no idea that I had climbed so high! I think I took a picture of the saddle you are talking about from where I was. Do you know if it is possible to get to that saddle from there allowing me to keep to the high open areas and avoid going down into any brushy areas, or would I have to cross over a bunch of brush choked ravines to get there?
Joe,
I am out of information that I am willing to share. The information you want may be in Jake’s manuscript, but until I know for sure I am not letting go of what I have to anyone.
You have now squeezed me into a corner so tight by your constant prodding that I am glad I signed on this board with an alias and relish in the thought that I don’t have to worry about people like yourself showing up on my doorstep. I don’t know what your fascination is with my education and don’t know if I should take it as a compliment or an insult, but I fail to see what it has to do with anything we have been discussing.
Matthew and the other fine members here,
I can see the signs of the opposing forces of this forum circling over my head like buzzards even that I had hoped that if I stuck to my topic I could avoid getting involved with the background feuds that are so distractive to the flow of friendly conversation here. I enjoyed our exchanges and look forward to reading any future posts that anyone makes on the subjects of Ruth’s early trips or the I.S.C. area, but I think it is time for me to back out of here as a contributor to the forum before I get sucked into the battle.
krf
You do make that saddle sound like a place that would be worth going to see. For as many times as I have been back into I.S. Canyon I have never seen the slightest sign of a trail in there anywhere. You mentioned that it is now overgrown. That may be why I have not seen it. I usually keep to the open areas away from the brush as much as possible. The thought of running to a snake in a confined area makes my skin crawl. Once I decided to go to the top of the ridge above the windmill where the water tank is and see what the I.S.C. looked like from above. When I finally made it to a point where I could see down into I.S.C. it looked like the Grand Canyon with no possible access down into it from where I was. I had no idea that I had climbed so high! I think I took a picture of the saddle you are talking about from where I was. Do you know if it is possible to get to that saddle from there allowing me to keep to the high open areas and avoid going down into any brushy areas, or would I have to cross over a bunch of brush choked ravines to get there?
Joe,
I am out of information that I am willing to share. The information you want may be in Jake’s manuscript, but until I know for sure I am not letting go of what I have to anyone.
You have now squeezed me into a corner so tight by your constant prodding that I am glad I signed on this board with an alias and relish in the thought that I don’t have to worry about people like yourself showing up on my doorstep. I don’t know what your fascination is with my education and don’t know if I should take it as a compliment or an insult, but I fail to see what it has to do with anything we have been discussing.
Matthew and the other fine members here,
I can see the signs of the opposing forces of this forum circling over my head like buzzards even that I had hoped that if I stuck to my topic I could avoid getting involved with the background feuds that are so distractive to the flow of friendly conversation here. I enjoyed our exchanges and look forward to reading any future posts that anyone makes on the subjects of Ruth’s early trips or the I.S.C. area, but I think it is time for me to back out of here as a contributor to the forum before I get sucked into the battle.
krf
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Joe Ribaudo
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?
krf,
Sorry you took it that way, I said it was a compliment. Also sorry you took my questions as "out of line". No answer or can't say is always ok.
I told you I would not say more after your first post. You addressed part of your posts to me, so I assumed you wanted a response. I can hear the thunder in the distance already.
No need to leave, I will not respond to anything you post in the future.....PERIOD! That means even if you say something to me directly.
Joe Ribaudo
Sorry you took it that way, I said it was a compliment. Also sorry you took my questions as "out of line". No answer or can't say is always ok.
I told you I would not say more after your first post. You addressed part of your posts to me, so I assumed you wanted a response. I can hear the thunder in the distance already.
No need to leave, I will not respond to anything you post in the future.....PERIOD! That means even if you say something to me directly.
Joe Ribaudo
Zen,He had to be brought in, his camp set up for him and he was most likely not in good physical condition for his age. Ruth was unable to make Willow springs on his own.
I would have had a couple of burros packed up and walked them in if I was physically capable of the hike. Pretty similar distance as his supposed hike to Black Top Mesa. That Ruth needed the assistance is obvious.
I agree. As krf pointed out, Ruth's prior opportunities to go into the Superstitions were before his 1919 injury, and as such, don't really mean anything as far as his capabilities in 1931.
krf,
Your perceptions are valid. Thank you for what you contributed, and I hope to see more from you. But I sure don't blame you if you want to fade. There are indeed opposing camps here, and it all gets very childish. LDM advised not to trust anyone here; I second that advice. I'm sure you know who is who by now.
Good luck!
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Tennies
Well.....Thank goodness for that. Not wearing tennis shoes does have it's good points.
Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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JIM HAMRICK
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Ruth mystery
Having no dogs in this fight (no theories as to what happened to Mr. Ruth) but as an older person with an artificial hip for some 30 some years I do have some observations.
Knun posted portions of Mr. Ruth's letter and to me it was very clear as to its meaning. After riding a mount for 6 miles in my case I would have doubts as to my ability to stand up on my legs. As for the term "Prospect some" just meant that he would look around. unless the camp was on a fairly lever area I would doubt that he could have traveled more than a mile from the camp due to his age and leg.
Mr Ruth, if he had a map, was looking for land marks shown on the map (my opinon). If the map was thought to be genuine and all the land marks were there then one might assume that the mine was located and only had to be traveled to.
Jim Hamrick
Knun posted portions of Mr. Ruth's letter and to me it was very clear as to its meaning. After riding a mount for 6 miles in my case I would have doubts as to my ability to stand up on my legs. As for the term "Prospect some" just meant that he would look around. unless the camp was on a fairly lever area I would doubt that he could have traveled more than a mile from the camp due to his age and leg.
Mr Ruth, if he had a map, was looking for land marks shown on the map (my opinon). If the map was thought to be genuine and all the land marks were there then one might assume that the mine was located and only had to be traveled to.
Jim Hamrick
TC,Wiz, Iam sure that both you and kfr are well aware of who is who on this forum. I would not try to lump everyone into the category of the most niave to ever shit behind a pair of tennis shoes.
I'm sorry, could you rephrase that? I don't understand what you said.
I got the first sentence. I don't know what kfr does or doesn't know. I got the impression he (she?) sensed the high BS factor here.
You lost me at the part about shitting behind tennis shoes. Not trying to start a fight - I'm just missing your meaning.
My stumbling block is if he saw things in I.S. Canyon that fit with what he expected to find there, why didn't he return there in 1931 instead of going to the Barkley Ranch? It leaves me assuming that there was another important landmark that he was looking for that he did not find there? or maybe he was still in the process or learning the lay of the land from all directions.
If I may be allowed to speculate for a moment; From what I know about Ruth and his experience in looking for lost mines, I find it hard to invision him flashing a map around in front of a lot of people and saying that he is going to find the mine it applies to. My speculation would be that he might have told ONE person about his map. That ONE person is probably the one that started the story going around that Ruth was flashing the map all around. Everyone else then kept that story going and it grew into what it is today. I speculate that the ONE person shot Ruth and started the gossip to create a large number of suspects.
krf
This is a very interesting perspective.
"What if" Ruth never went to the Barkley ranch? What if he called Tex to see about taking him in, and Tex said he was busy and refered him to someone else who packed him in the mountains.
Either way, under this scenario, that he either only showed 1 person the map, or never made it to the Barkely ranch, Tex has some problems with the story.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
There are a number of accounts and a drawing of what those at the ranch say the map looked like. Tex probably didn't let just anyone handle shipping his cattle. There is probably some way that the shipment could be verified, as well as Tex's whereabouts. It is doubtful that everyone was in one huge conspiracy. Too many people, too many loose ends. One of them would have written a book or two by now.
Brownie Holmes is most famous in the dutch hunting community because of the deathbed story and ore passed down from his father. He is probably most well known for the photo of Ruths skull. I don't believe the Holmes manuscript has more than 2 sentences on the discovery of Ruths skull and only a few paragrahs concerning Ruth at all. Everyone involved closed the doors including Jeff Adams and Sheriff McFadden.
Does anyone know the timeline between the discovery of the remains and when they were removed? Of the photos I have seen it appears that Tex and Jeff Adams left the remains behind for later removal. They then spend two days looking for the mine. They mention only that no one had been at the point designated. Who knows what they saw, talked about or found during that time. You would think it in both their best interests to make notification asap ?
Brownie Holmes is most famous in the dutch hunting community because of the deathbed story and ore passed down from his father. He is probably most well known for the photo of Ruths skull. I don't believe the Holmes manuscript has more than 2 sentences on the discovery of Ruths skull and only a few paragrahs concerning Ruth at all. Everyone involved closed the doors including Jeff Adams and Sheriff McFadden.
Does anyone know the timeline between the discovery of the remains and when they were removed? Of the photos I have seen it appears that Tex and Jeff Adams left the remains behind for later removal. They then spend two days looking for the mine. They mention only that no one had been at the point designated. Who knows what they saw, talked about or found during that time. You would think it in both their best interests to make notification asap ?
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Mike McChesney
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Re: Moses
No, he wasn't just wandering about. He had at least one map in his possession, when he went off. The only problem is that in 1919 (hell, it's just as bad today), going anywhere in the Borrego Badlands (This was where they were. Between the 78 and the Salton Seaway) after dark is an invitation to get lost. I wouldn't wander out there after dark, and I'm a 14 year combat vet Army Ranger, who's been roaming the Anza-Borrego Area for years.="Joe Ribaudo"
Mike,
I have heard and read the story of how Ruth broke his hip, and I don't believe he was just wandering about. Gene gives some pretty good accounts of the incident, which he gleaned from the Ruth family, in Borrego 13
Joe Ribaudo
But like I said, Adolph and Erwin had gotten pretty desert savvy between 1919, and 1931 when he met his end. Although most of their time in the desert from 1919 to 1929 were spent in SoCal, until he realized that at least some of the maps they had fit more closely the terrain elsewhere (AZ).\
Mike
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Joe Ribaudo
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Judgement.
Mike,
Adolph Ruth saw what he was looking for and left his son to set up camp.
It was 2:00 in the afternoon when he left. As he got closer to his destination, caution and time were the last things on his mind. He was probably seeing landmark after landmark, and possibly trail signs, and knew he could get there before dark. He did find the mine that was shown on the map. At that point, I doubt he was thinking at all.....just reacting. Started back too late and got caught by nightfall.
Bad judgement, but understandable. Not sure how clearly anyone would be thinking if they found the LDM.
Joe Ribaudo
Adolph Ruth saw what he was looking for and left his son to set up camp.
It was 2:00 in the afternoon when he left. As he got closer to his destination, caution and time were the last things on his mind. He was probably seeing landmark after landmark, and possibly trail signs, and knew he could get there before dark. He did find the mine that was shown on the map. At that point, I doubt he was thinking at all.....just reacting. Started back too late and got caught by nightfall.
Bad judgement, but understandable. Not sure how clearly anyone would be thinking if they found the LDM.
Joe Ribaudo
Zen,
You think they found his maps and went for a looksee? Or did I miss something in your post.
You think they found his maps and went for a looksee? Or did I miss something in your post.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
According to Jeff Adams in a letter , He and Tex found the body and had possession of the " map or directions" and they followed it and claim that no one had been at that point. Adams did not mention what they did or did not find though........
There was a topic about this some time back or just some posts concerning it. I believe it was just in the last few months.
There was a topic about this some time back or just some posts concerning it. I believe it was just in the last few months.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Close
Wayne,
Actually, what Sheriff Adam's said, was: "This trip took us two days of very hard labor and following these directions we came to the place pointed out in the instructions and found no evidence of any human being ever having been there at any time in the past."
He was not stating that Ruth had not been there, he was saying that no one had "ever" been there. That would rule out any kind of mine.
Looking at his history after that point, you could assume he did not find the LDM at the end of the trail.
Two days, as you said, of hard labor will take you a long ways in those mountains.
Joe Ribaudo
Actually, what Sheriff Adam's said, was: "This trip took us two days of very hard labor and following these directions we came to the place pointed out in the instructions and found no evidence of any human being ever having been there at any time in the past."
He was not stating that Ruth had not been there, he was saying that no one had "ever" been there. That would rule out any kind of mine.
Looking at his history after that point, you could assume he did not find the LDM at the end of the trail.
Two days, as you said, of hard labor will take you a long ways in those mountains.
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Nice Lightning Storm
I know. Sat out in the jacuzi for awhile and watched the light show.
Joe
Joe
Little creepy isn't it?Kind of what I meant.....I am distracted by this strange wet substance falling from the sky...........nice storm moving across the valley tonight.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari