Adolph Ruth, the mystery.

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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djui5
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Post by djui5 »

Hey - why didn't the quote come up in a little box? Did I screw up a setting or something?

Wiz,
It seems if you leave the ="Wiz" part of the quote, in the first pair of brackets, it won't submit properly to the forum. Try editing it, and taking the ="djui5" part out and it will look fine. I think it's something wrong with the forum software...hello Count :D


krf,
Thank you for sharing that information. It's much appreciated.
Randy Wright
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Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
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June

Post by Knun »

Zentull,

Alot has been said about the heat but one thing in Ruth's favor, as I understand it, is just that.

It was around 100 degrees when he went in. Again, as I understand it. Not exactly unbearable and the nights would have been actually pleasant.

Water on the ground means he could have drank stinky pothole water if need be even with one Thermos. (Maybe he did and that's how Tex really trailed him!) After all, he was familar with at least a Cali desert. Now I know one Thermos (which looked in the pics as though it was less than a quart) couldn't get a back east yankee more than a half mile, but hey, it did look like a Stanley so who knows.

Was he blazing a trail or on a trail? If he started at daybreak was it around 80 degrees?

Just so many variables!

I personably don't think he intended to go further than a mile or two. If you had someone pack you in would you want to walk more than a mile or two?

"He saw" something alright. Hey! Look at that over there! BAM!!!...Ruthless!
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Post by krf »

Joe,

You catch me totally off guard. I expected that when you responded, as I was sure you would, it would be in a most argumentative nature. Although I realized that the information I presented has been around for a long time, some of it has never been in any books as far as I know. The way the topic was drifting so far off course concerning Ruth’s prior knowledge of the lay of the land and the potential hazards in the mountains before he went in, I felt that a little explanation of his experience and abilities was in order to prevent the less informed from thinking he was a total idiot, which was the picture that was being drawn of him.

It’s too bad that you take offence to my suggestion that you call Roland. I am sure that there are others that would like to have some independent verification of the origin of the gold in Gassler’s backpack. Unless someone else that knows Roland and has already heard his version of the story and verifies what I have said, the poor guy might get a flood of calls where one may have been enough.

The story presented by Unsolved Mysteries is one that inspires the imagination and creates the illusion that he went in and found the mine for which he had searched so long. The gold in the backpack was the physical evidence that supported the illusion. As you said in an earlier post, it’s hard to let go of something (or someone) you have believed in for a long time, but it’s all part of separating the wheat from the chaff.

It was a nice thing you said about not disturbing Roland, even though you said it in an argumentative way. I tip my hat to you for that.

krf


LDM

It's good to know that the Gassler family is is doing well. I never met Roland in person, but I developed a certain closeness with him over the phone. The poor guy did his darndest to to get me to leave that Lost Dutchman "thing" alone and not get involved in it. A very sincere person indeed! I would hate to think I did anything that would cause him even a moments greef by making that post. It would be nice if someone else would confirm what I said so that it would be forever put to rest about the gold in his backpack. I am not sure where Ruth was on that third day in the Tortilla area, just that he followed Peter's Trail to some high saddle to where he described the spectacular view.

krf
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Willow Spring

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

krf,

I took no offense.....well, maybe a little, but you don't know me....right? Just pointing out the reasons why I only had an interest in the fight, but no dog. :lol:

I didn't really expect you to answer my questions, but understand your reasoning completely.

As you can see, there are some here who believe that Ruth was a "total idiot". Gene Reynolds and I, side with your view.

As you have said you don't want to be pressured for "information", I will ask this of the other members.

If krf's copies of "Ruth's Notes" are legitimate, it would really bring up a very important question. If Adolph Ruth had made two "exploratory trips into the Superstitions", and his third trip was meant to be the one where he went to the LDM, why did he let them put him at Willow Spring? With only that small thermos to carry water, he was not planning on going very far.

Perhaps he was an idiot after all. :lol:

As for why he insisted on going in at that time of the year, perhaps he was looking for shadows. :?

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Mike McChesney »

Hey KRF,

It's nice of you to rally to the defense of Ruth. He was not a Greenhorn in the desert, but he also was not a desert rat!

In 1919, he didn't just fall into a ravine. He and his son were out in the (now) Anza-Borrego Desert looking for lost Peralta Mines with the maps his son (Erwin)had obtained while in the service of Mexico (Long Story).

It was getting late and Erwin had told Adolph not to wander off. He did anyway. He wandered around for a while until stumbling and falling down into a ravine, breaking his leg just below the hip. He was missing for four days.

Those don't exactly sound like the actions of someone accustomed to the wilderness.

Mike
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Post by Mike McChesney »

By the time 1931 rolled around, he had been pretty consistently mine hunting with Erwin in SoCal. I believe they tired of that in about 1929.

Mike
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Moses

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I have heard and read the story of how Ruth broke his hip, and I don't believe he was just wandering about. Gene gives some pretty good accounts of the incident, which he gleaned from the Ruth family, in Borrego 13

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Post by krf »

Joe,

I am sorry, you asked for my source of the Ruth material. I intended to reply to that and I got off into something else and forgot about it. I have no objection to telling you where I got the information even though it may cause you and a few others to raise an eyebrow and roll your eyes.

My source was Nancy Cochran whom I met when Jake was in prison. Her source of course was Jake. Jake’s source was several boxes of materials that Nancy said Jake got directly from Erwin Ruth.

As far as the material being available for your review; Well, not from me, I am sort of protective of it. I only hit the high spots of the notes in my post. They go into some detail about things Ruth saw in Indian Spring Canyon that I have verified to be there. In his style of taking notes, he did not mention why those items were of interest to him, only that he observed them just as he had expected to find them there. I have no idea what they mean or what importance they may be to anything.

I do not know if it is true or not, but I have been told that some of the same information is in a manuscript that Jake wrote while he was in prison. I have never seen the manuscript and do not know how you would go about obtaining a copy of it, but if you know anyone that has it, you might look there.

Re; Your last post. I have already apologized above for not answering your question about my source. As far as the small thermos is concerned, what more would you need if your camp was near a spring?


Mike Mc….

If falling down in the desert makes you an idiot. I QUALIFY for that! So does everyone I have ever been out hiking with. I even know some Die-Hard Desert Rats that qualify by that definition. :D

krf
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Wrong Source

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

krf,

Actually, that was the least important question I asked. The one that counted had to do with if the "originals" are available to see, and if not do
you know why? Since you have revealed, at least, part of the notes, seeing that part of the original would do no harm.

I said I would not comment further on your post and if you quit responding to me, I will do just that.

The only part of the original notes I would care to see, would be the parts confirming that he made earlier trips into the Superstitions. You have already told us that was in the notes, so nothing of importance would need to be revealed.

It's true that I would be suspicious of anything that came from Jake, especially as it concerns that box, but no one should dismiss what Jake had, out of hand.

Once again, the thing you would have to do, especially if a book is in the works, is tie the LDM, Adolph Ruth and Willow Spring into one neat package. Something tells me that would be a bit of a stretch from where you think it is.

The reason I mentioned a book, is because your education is showing.
That is a compliment.....before everyone jumps down my throat again. :lol:

Joe Ribaudo
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?

Post by TGH »

:?:
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Ruth Mystery

Post by TC ASKEY »

Some interesting information that has not been mentioned until now. I hope that krf will stay in the converstion. Is there anything that you would like to add to this Joe or was your comment a carrot before the horse thing ?
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Ruth notes.

Post by LDM »

LDM
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Post by krf »

Joe,

As far as I can see there is no tie between Ruth and the LDM or Willow Spring. Neither of them are mentioned in the informtion I have and I do not recall mentioning either of them in my post. If you wish to tie Ruth to the LDM you will have to make that connection yourself.

Good Luck,

krf
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Post by TGH »

:?:
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Ditto

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

krf,

I would echo what Matthew has said.....in spades, except without seeing the original notes, I would proceed with some caution. Jake may have had some very important information, but he was not above a wee bit of larceny. He was not in prison by mistake.

He is also correct about private messages and e-mails. There are a number of people on this Forum who are not exactly what they project to the members. That does not include me, as you get exactly what you see's. :lol:

If I should e-mail or private message you as krf, you have my permission to post that message on this Forum. No doubt every other member will make you the same offer. :roll:

Don't know who has "harangued" you for information, but perhaps I don't know the meaning of the word. Perhaps it means responding to your posts openly and without guile. Asking a couple of questions about the notes required only a.....yes they are around still, or not and yes they are availabe, or not.

Would I like to see the originals? Who wouldn't? As I said, the part you have already told us about would be harmless to show....someone.

Would I offer you money for copies....no. I will wait for the book and read that.

Watch out for the back stabbers here, they will cut your throat over a rumor.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

:?:
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Ruth Mystery

Post by TC ASKEY »

Peter, When you say Jim are you refering to Joe's old boxing partner or is that an oversight on my part.
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Post by TGH »

:?:
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Post by krf »

Matthew,

Thank You for the advice. I will comply with it and avoid private conversations with people I do not know. The last thing I want is to make a bunch of LDM'ers think I have any secret information about the location of their mine. I have already revealed almost everything I know anyway and don't have any more to offer about Ruth, and nothing to offer anyone concerning the LDM.

I remain interested myself because I am fascinated by the fact that some of the landmarks mentioned in the notes do exist in I.S. Canyon. Whether those observations were made and recorded by Ruth himself, or by someone else and presented as Ruth's observations I can not say. Maybe someone else will eventually come up with additional information about Ruth's trips into the Superstitions prior to 1931 that comes from another source. For me it is logical that Ruth would check out the superstitions on his way back and forth to Calif. My stumbling block is if he saw things in I.S. Canyon that fit with what he expected to find there, why didn't he return there in 1931 instead of going to the Barkley Ranch? It leaves me assuming that there was another important landmark that he was looking for that he did not find there? or maybe he was still in the process or learning the lay of the land from all directions.

If I may be allowed to speculate for a moment; From what I know about Ruth and his experience in looking for lost mines, I find it hard to invision him flashing a map around in front of a lot of people and saying that he is going to find the mine it applies to. My speculation would be that he might have told ONE person about his map. That ONE person is probably the one that started the story going around that Ruth was flashing the map all around. Everyone else then kept that story going and it grew into what it is today. I speculate that the ONE person shot Ruth and started the gossip to create a large number of suspects.

I have been told many times that following up on anything that comes from Jake is a waste of time. For me, it's not a waste of time, but rather a pleasant way to spend it. Anyone that has ever been into I.S. Canyon would understand that. One day I will follow it all the way up to the saddle you mentioned, just to see it as you described it for myself, even though the way I read the notes, Ruth did not go to that saddle, but one East of it just off of Peter's Trail near the South Eastern tip of Tortilla, but I could have misunderstood.

krf



Joe, No offense taken. I understand where you are coming from. I have pretty much told my whole story. Now I am just hoping someone else can add something to it that would confirm what I have come to believe. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. In the mean time I have found a nice place to get away from it all and let my imagination take me which ever way the wind blows.

krf
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Good Post

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

krf,

Like I said....."your education is showing". You have a way with words, Sir.

Very well done post.

Good luck.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by zentull »

" On this adventure the elder Ruth who is not in perfect health and with his shortened leg which resulted from the injury........." Erwin Ruth

Prior to the Superstition journey Erwin would seem to join the ranks of those who would doubt Adolph's physical capabilities.

Joe,

I find it difficult to believe even by working close to camp and exploring the canyons in that vicinity, that Ruth would be able to do so without assistance.
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What Could He Do?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Had you ever met Obie Stoker, say around eighty or eight-five, you would have sworn he had one foot in the grave. Unless you saw him out dancing with a thirty-somethin gal, or tried to keep up with him in the Superstitions.

Hard to tell what a man is capable of doing. Obie lived to 102, which would come as a shock to anyone who knew him well. He ended up getting hitched to a Florida girl in her teen's, while in his 90s. Mind never quite caught up with his body. :)

Joe Ribaudo
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Indian Springs Canyon.

Post by LDM »

LDM
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From Adolph

Post by Knun »

Zentull,

From Adolph's last letter:

I rode my burro until we got to the water. I didn't get off because I was afraid I could not stand on it again.

Wonder if he was talking about his bum leg or the burro?

They at once put up the tent and my bed. Everything else was put on the ground. I was too tired and aching to do much. I could hardly stand up. The distance we made was between six and seven miles.

They guy was spent just from getting there and hadn't walked a lick.

Lastly:

The highest yesterday was 93, but now, at 2 o'clock it is 94.

I'll take those temperatures for hiking anytime.
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Post by TGH »

:?:
Last edited by TGH on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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