Adolph Ruth, the mystery.
Maybe to make it look like he wandered off and died of natural causes, looking in an area far from the culprit's favorite area?djui5 wrote:If he was killed in his camp, why would they move him? Unless animals dragged him off...
On the other hand, if he was forced to go somewhere, not having his boots would be a pretty effective way to keep him from trying to get away.
Hey - why didn't the quote come up in a little box? Did I screw up a setting or something?
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WyattWestwood
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Deleted...................
Last edited by WyattWestwood on Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ruth Mystery
LDM,
It is my opinion that Ruth died exactly where his remains were found. I can also go along with Joe that Ruth new the landmarks he was looking for. However, I would be suprised if either one of us would believe Ruth was in the correct location. More likely the location that someone else believed was the location that pertained to the maps his was known to possess. It was stated that Ruth had shown the maps to others during his stay at the Barkley Ranch. It is also my opinion that Ruth had to have been aided to reach the location in Needle Canyon with only a short amount of water without any help at all, unless he was just stupid and I doubt that.
He may have had help from Ray Howland or the cowhands you mentioned in your earlier post.I have no idea.What I find hard to believe is that Howland could recognize Ruth but none of the cowhands, had he spent any time at all at the Barkley Ranch. Especially when you consider most of Barkleys range was located in the area Howland was known to search. He had to have run into Barkleys cowhands on more than one occasion. But then again, maybe this is information that would not be wise to share.
There has been a great deal of bickering that has occured in the last several days. Most of it has been uncalled for. I would hope that someone would have the ability to silence their friends prior to their mouth overloading their ass. P. S.--- Forgot you re not supose to say ass on the C.B.
It is my opinion that Ruth died exactly where his remains were found. I can also go along with Joe that Ruth new the landmarks he was looking for. However, I would be suprised if either one of us would believe Ruth was in the correct location. More likely the location that someone else believed was the location that pertained to the maps his was known to possess. It was stated that Ruth had shown the maps to others during his stay at the Barkley Ranch. It is also my opinion that Ruth had to have been aided to reach the location in Needle Canyon with only a short amount of water without any help at all, unless he was just stupid and I doubt that.
He may have had help from Ray Howland or the cowhands you mentioned in your earlier post.I have no idea.What I find hard to believe is that Howland could recognize Ruth but none of the cowhands, had he spent any time at all at the Barkley Ranch. Especially when you consider most of Barkleys range was located in the area Howland was known to search. He had to have run into Barkleys cowhands on more than one occasion. But then again, maybe this is information that would not be wise to share.
There has been a great deal of bickering that has occured in the last several days. Most of it has been uncalled for. I would hope that someone would have the ability to silence their friends prior to their mouth overloading their ass. P. S.--- Forgot you re not supose to say ass on the C.B.
TERRY - Update your email address. Current one is dead and you will not receive notices.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Ruth
Terry,
My personal belief is that Ruth did not walk farther than a mile from his camp. He was looking for landmarks or monuments. Who knows if he found anything.
My guess is that he did find something, not the mine, but something that compelled him to write down that well known phrase.
Matthew,
Good point.
Joe Ribaudo
My personal belief is that Ruth did not walk farther than a mile from his camp. He was looking for landmarks or monuments. Who knows if he found anything.
My guess is that he did find something, not the mine, but something that compelled him to write down that well known phrase.
Matthew,
Good point.
Joe Ribaudo
Buzzaeds
The Buzzard question always bothered me about all three.
A few years back I walked up to a dead coyote which had two buzzards circling a couple hundred feet overhead. There were three on the ground going at it.
Another time, years ago, I saw about ten circling and found a dead deer. Looked like it was a few days old at most. Pretty clear sign of death.
Heck, maybe a mountain lion took him out when he went to the edge of his camp to take a leak. Course I've never seen one carry a forty-five! lol
A few years back I walked up to a dead coyote which had two buzzards circling a couple hundred feet overhead. There were three on the ground going at it.
Another time, years ago, I saw about ten circling and found a dead deer. Looked like it was a few days old at most. Pretty clear sign of death.
Heck, maybe a mountain lion took him out when he went to the edge of his camp to take a leak. Course I've never seen one carry a forty-five! lol
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Joe Ribaudo
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Taking A Hike
Don't know how many of you were interested enough to take that hike, but I did it around thiry years ago. A man walking with a cane did not make that summer hike with a quart thermos.
It had been raining, so there would have been small pools, at least, of fresh water. For me, it's the condition/age of the man, the distance and the terrain, plain and simple. Odds are that he did not walk far.
Having seen men walk those mountains in sneakers and.....yes, cowboy boots, the footgear is not an issue, at least for me.
We have discussed the birds before, and if you did not get in the right place at the right elevation, you would not see them over the back side of Black Top. That assumes that Tex was looking for them. I believe he searched the area around Ruth's camp at first. That would not include Black Top Mesa.
It's not feasable that a mountain lion would drag a man far in that terrain.
Joe Ribaudo
It had been raining, so there would have been small pools, at least, of fresh water. For me, it's the condition/age of the man, the distance and the terrain, plain and simple. Odds are that he did not walk far.
Having seen men walk those mountains in sneakers and.....yes, cowboy boots, the footgear is not an issue, at least for me.
We have discussed the birds before, and if you did not get in the right place at the right elevation, you would not see them over the back side of Black Top. That assumes that Tex was looking for them. I believe he searched the area around Ruth's camp at first. That would not include Black Top Mesa.
It's not feasable that a mountain lion would drag a man far in that terrain.
Joe Ribaudo
You're right.
Good points Joe.
Another aspect which points away from natural predators are the simple facts in the discovery of the remains.
His belongings were relatively intact. Belongings which include his attire.
It seems as though he was turned to bones inside his clothes or something else happened.
Inside the clothes would mean insects without the intrusion of larger animals. Something which doesn't happen often.
By the way, just how far was Adolph from his camp when found?
Another aspect which points away from natural predators are the simple facts in the discovery of the remains.
His belongings were relatively intact. Belongings which include his attire.
It seems as though he was turned to bones inside his clothes or something else happened.
Inside the clothes would mean insects without the intrusion of larger animals. Something which doesn't happen often.
By the way, just how far was Adolph from his camp when found?
Ruth & Gassler
Hello All,
It is interesting the way you guys hash things out on here and some of the tidbits that fall out in the process are interesting as well.
I am not as fluent in the Dutchman Legend as a whole as some of you obviously are, but I have studied the Ruth affair for many years. There has been a lot of discussion about Ruth’s ability to get into the mountains on his own and under his own power. Hasn't anyone ever heard of Purnell & Kennan or did I miss something? Everyone seems to view Ruth as an inexperienced Greenhorn that had no idea what he was doing. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Ruth had been involved in hunting for lost mines for many years before his fatal trip into the Superstitions in 1931.
He was already a desert-wise hunter when he broke his hip looking for an old Peralta mine in search of the "Borrego" mine in 1919. He had made several trips to Borrego before that unfortunate trip. Think about it for a minute, he made several trips from Washington DC to Borrego and other destinations in the San Diego area prior to 1919. Do you think he ignored Arizona as he passed through every time? Especially when he knew or suspected all along that some of the maps in his possession applied to the Superstition Mountains?
The fact is, the 1931 trip, which was his last, was certainly not his first trip into the Superstitions. I have in my possession, information (copied from Ruth's own notes) that describes an earlier trip he made into the superstitions in which he spent 3 days headquartered at the Tortilla Ranch. His first day he spent exploring the area we know today as the Miller Mines area but George Miller and Robert Aiton were already established there and he presumed that if there had been anything of value to be found there, they had already found it. His second day was spent exploring the "Indian Spring Canyon" area and the third day he followed what we know today as Peter's Trail around the Eastern corner of Tortilla Mountain to a saddle that offered him a spectacular view overlooking Weaver’s Needle & Peter's Mesa. I do not have any documentation for it, but I was told that he also made at least one other exploratory trip into the Superstitions by way of the old Milk Ranch.
Ruth was very well prepared for the 1931 trip. He had studied the mountains from several different entry points and knew exactly what he would need in the way of supplies for the length of time he intended to stay. He planned to make his camp near a source of water and had a thermos for carrying water on trail as he ventured out from his camp.
I know of at least two other people that have information concerning Ruth's earlier trips into the Superstitions. They are well known figures in the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine and a number of you probably know them. Out of respect for their privacy I will mot post their names, but I am sure that if you ask around in the right places you will come up with supporting information for what I have presented here form other sources.
I hope I did not severely contradict anyone or step on anyone’s toes. In the event that I may have spilled the beans about something that someone has considered private or confidential information my apologies in advance. It was not my intention to do so as it is all a matter of historical record. Although speculation and supposition can often bring forth something important, I felt that this topic was getting too involved with too much of it and need some facts to help get it back on an historical track.
I have once short piece to share about the Walter Gassler story, which also seems to be drifting into more speculation than historical fact. (Despite the heroic efforts put forth by LDM to keep it on solid ground). Back in the mid to late 80’s I corresponded with Roland Gassler on a number of occasions. I haven’t spoken with him in over 10 years now but last I knew he was still listed in the greater Phoenix phone book. Glendale or Peoria, if I remember correctly. I first contacted Roland by looking him up in the phone book after seeing the Unsolved Mysteries episode about his father’s death in the mountains. The story Roland tells is quite different from the one presented in the TV show. I am almost certain Roland told me that he was given the backpack his father carried on that fatal trip; it was never lost or stolen, as many people still believe. I have notes about that conversation but I have been unable to locate them as of yet. One thing I am sure of is that when I asked Roland about the gold that was in his father’s backpack he verified that that part of the story was true, there was gold in the backpack. But. . . He went on to explain that his father did not find that gold in the mountains during that last trip or any other trip. That gold was a sample of high-grade ore (gold in quartz) that his father acquired from someone (he did not name the person, but I assumed it was Tex Barkley) and always carried into the mountains with him to compare with any quartz veins or float he came across. All the hype about the gold in the dead man’s backpack is just that – “HYPE”. Either the Unsolved Mysteries people needed some real “Thunder” to pump up the story, or they were “Duped” by their sources of information for that story.
Please! Don’t everyone go looking up Roland Gassler in the phone book (assuming he is still alive and has not gone to an unlisted number) and bombard him with phone calls and questions. This was not a topic he enjoyed talking about. He had no interest in the Dutchman while his father was searching for it and had even less interest in it after his father died on the trail in search of it.
I suppose there is no way to keep Ole’ Joe “Gimmie-The-Facts” Ribaudo from jumping right into it with both feet as soon as he reads this, so why don’t the rest of you sit back and let him make the call so Roland only has to go through it once and let him give you his report on the Straight-From-The-Source Roland Gassler version of the story.
If I have something else in the way of valid historical information concerning other discussions that I am free to share with you, and I am not beaten up too bad or pressured to hard for more information concerning this post, (I have herein shared all that I am willing or able to share concerning Ruth & Gassler) I will return.
krf
It is interesting the way you guys hash things out on here and some of the tidbits that fall out in the process are interesting as well.
I am not as fluent in the Dutchman Legend as a whole as some of you obviously are, but I have studied the Ruth affair for many years. There has been a lot of discussion about Ruth’s ability to get into the mountains on his own and under his own power. Hasn't anyone ever heard of Purnell & Kennan or did I miss something? Everyone seems to view Ruth as an inexperienced Greenhorn that had no idea what he was doing. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Ruth had been involved in hunting for lost mines for many years before his fatal trip into the Superstitions in 1931.
He was already a desert-wise hunter when he broke his hip looking for an old Peralta mine in search of the "Borrego" mine in 1919. He had made several trips to Borrego before that unfortunate trip. Think about it for a minute, he made several trips from Washington DC to Borrego and other destinations in the San Diego area prior to 1919. Do you think he ignored Arizona as he passed through every time? Especially when he knew or suspected all along that some of the maps in his possession applied to the Superstition Mountains?
The fact is, the 1931 trip, which was his last, was certainly not his first trip into the Superstitions. I have in my possession, information (copied from Ruth's own notes) that describes an earlier trip he made into the superstitions in which he spent 3 days headquartered at the Tortilla Ranch. His first day he spent exploring the area we know today as the Miller Mines area but George Miller and Robert Aiton were already established there and he presumed that if there had been anything of value to be found there, they had already found it. His second day was spent exploring the "Indian Spring Canyon" area and the third day he followed what we know today as Peter's Trail around the Eastern corner of Tortilla Mountain to a saddle that offered him a spectacular view overlooking Weaver’s Needle & Peter's Mesa. I do not have any documentation for it, but I was told that he also made at least one other exploratory trip into the Superstitions by way of the old Milk Ranch.
Ruth was very well prepared for the 1931 trip. He had studied the mountains from several different entry points and knew exactly what he would need in the way of supplies for the length of time he intended to stay. He planned to make his camp near a source of water and had a thermos for carrying water on trail as he ventured out from his camp.
I know of at least two other people that have information concerning Ruth's earlier trips into the Superstitions. They are well known figures in the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine and a number of you probably know them. Out of respect for their privacy I will mot post their names, but I am sure that if you ask around in the right places you will come up with supporting information for what I have presented here form other sources.
I hope I did not severely contradict anyone or step on anyone’s toes. In the event that I may have spilled the beans about something that someone has considered private or confidential information my apologies in advance. It was not my intention to do so as it is all a matter of historical record. Although speculation and supposition can often bring forth something important, I felt that this topic was getting too involved with too much of it and need some facts to help get it back on an historical track.
I have once short piece to share about the Walter Gassler story, which also seems to be drifting into more speculation than historical fact. (Despite the heroic efforts put forth by LDM to keep it on solid ground). Back in the mid to late 80’s I corresponded with Roland Gassler on a number of occasions. I haven’t spoken with him in over 10 years now but last I knew he was still listed in the greater Phoenix phone book. Glendale or Peoria, if I remember correctly. I first contacted Roland by looking him up in the phone book after seeing the Unsolved Mysteries episode about his father’s death in the mountains. The story Roland tells is quite different from the one presented in the TV show. I am almost certain Roland told me that he was given the backpack his father carried on that fatal trip; it was never lost or stolen, as many people still believe. I have notes about that conversation but I have been unable to locate them as of yet. One thing I am sure of is that when I asked Roland about the gold that was in his father’s backpack he verified that that part of the story was true, there was gold in the backpack. But. . . He went on to explain that his father did not find that gold in the mountains during that last trip or any other trip. That gold was a sample of high-grade ore (gold in quartz) that his father acquired from someone (he did not name the person, but I assumed it was Tex Barkley) and always carried into the mountains with him to compare with any quartz veins or float he came across. All the hype about the gold in the dead man’s backpack is just that – “HYPE”. Either the Unsolved Mysteries people needed some real “Thunder” to pump up the story, or they were “Duped” by their sources of information for that story.
Please! Don’t everyone go looking up Roland Gassler in the phone book (assuming he is still alive and has not gone to an unlisted number) and bombard him with phone calls and questions. This was not a topic he enjoyed talking about. He had no interest in the Dutchman while his father was searching for it and had even less interest in it after his father died on the trail in search of it.
I suppose there is no way to keep Ole’ Joe “Gimmie-The-Facts” Ribaudo from jumping right into it with both feet as soon as he reads this, so why don’t the rest of you sit back and let him make the call so Roland only has to go through it once and let him give you his report on the Straight-From-The-Source Roland Gassler version of the story.
If I have something else in the way of valid historical information concerning other discussions that I am free to share with you, and I am not beaten up too bad or pressured to hard for more information concerning this post, (I have herein shared all that I am willing or able to share concerning Ruth & Gassler) I will return.
krf
It'a ALL in "WHO" you know
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Joe Ribaudo
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How Far
Knun,
Ruth actually would have been going down hill, most of the way. He would drop around 460' as he headed out into Boulder Basin. That would have been around 2 miles. Mostly downhill for another 1 1/4 miles across the Basin. At aprox. 3 1/4 miles he would start his climb up to Bull Pass. Actual miles traveled would be just a hair over 4 miles at the end.
Joe Ribaudo
Ruth actually would have been going down hill, most of the way. He would drop around 460' as he headed out into Boulder Basin. That would have been around 2 miles. Mostly downhill for another 1 1/4 miles across the Basin. At aprox. 3 1/4 miles he would start his climb up to Bull Pass. Actual miles traveled would be just a hair over 4 miles at the end.
Joe Ribaudo
Big Cats
You know there's an interesting thing about Lions. They breed almost at will. A good year means lots of babies. A bad year means no babies. Sometimes babies overlap. That ends up being, for the lion, like being a single mother with triplets. Kinda makes life tough. Mom can be a downright "B" at times.
They generally hang out in a couple mile square at most and in the first 6-8 weeks poor momma has to bring home dinner. No eating out 'til then.
Buzzards somehow find dead things real quick. Their kinda like seagulls. You never see one and when there's food the sky's the limit.
Then there are those pesky Coyotes. Dragging stuff all over the place. Give 'em a full belly and their playing around with anything they can.
Bugs and ants on the other hand just take little tiny pieces with them. They even find food underground. Fly's are a little different. They find their food on top just like Coyotes or Lions. In fact, they compete.
My money is on "Come with me and leave them Boots." Since at that point the perps were committed, when the time was right, a quick draw forty-five to the temple. Two seconds and you've done the deed.
When and where the time was right is a big question.
Another question, who was where shortly before Ruth was found? With shortly being generic in nature. Such as prior to the expedition? Prior to the notification of the expedition? Etc., etc.
They generally hang out in a couple mile square at most and in the first 6-8 weeks poor momma has to bring home dinner. No eating out 'til then.
Buzzards somehow find dead things real quick. Their kinda like seagulls. You never see one and when there's food the sky's the limit.
Then there are those pesky Coyotes. Dragging stuff all over the place. Give 'em a full belly and their playing around with anything they can.
Bugs and ants on the other hand just take little tiny pieces with them. They even find food underground. Fly's are a little different. They find their food on top just like Coyotes or Lions. In fact, they compete.
My money is on "Come with me and leave them Boots." Since at that point the perps were committed, when the time was right, a quick draw forty-five to the temple. Two seconds and you've done the deed.
When and where the time was right is a big question.
Another question, who was where shortly before Ruth was found? With shortly being generic in nature. Such as prior to the expedition? Prior to the notification of the expedition? Etc., etc.
Last edited by Knun on Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Only serious issue I have with Ruths physical ability was he retired because he could not keep up with his day job. I pretty much doubt Adolph Ruth made it up Black Top Mesa on his own. Borrego was a different man who's physical abilities would still be questionable, but a far more reasonable chance.
A good point to further rule out the issue of a mountain lion would be the bone condition. Ruths bones would have been fragile and easy chewing for the marrow. There are few or no breaks in those that would suggest that any animal had been around those bones. The coyotes and smaller carnivores would have pretty much left little evidence and there would have been tell tale blood stains that would have given up an easier excuse than was given.
A good point to further rule out the issue of a mountain lion would be the bone condition. Ruths bones would have been fragile and easy chewing for the marrow. There are few or no breaks in those that would suggest that any animal had been around those bones. The coyotes and smaller carnivores would have pretty much left little evidence and there would have been tell tale blood stains that would have given up an easier excuse than was given.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Ruth
krf,
I seldom ask for "facts", but often ask for sources. Especially so, when we are presented with "new" evidence, as happens here now and again.
This is not a "new" story and I have heard it before. I would guess I heard it from you, but if not, from one of the "two well known figures" you speak of, for sure.
I would never call someone like Roland Gassler and dredge up what must have been a very hard time for him. In the first place, I have never searched for the LDM. In the second place, knowing the history of the legend, I have never believed that Walt Gassler found anything and I don't believe any of the stories that surrounded his death. No surprise there.
Some of the things you have said, actually puts an exclamation point on what I have said about the matter.
Since you practically begged me to comment on your "revelations", I will.
I won't jump in with both feet, but just nudge one little toe in.
Can you tell us where the original Ruth notes came from? Are they available for others to see? If not, do you know why not?
You have echoed my thoughts on the abilities of Adolph Ruth, and on what he knew. That's a personal opinion based on what I know about the man and his history.
I will not say anything else concerning your post.
Good luck and take care,
Joe Ribaudo
I seldom ask for "facts", but often ask for sources. Especially so, when we are presented with "new" evidence, as happens here now and again.
This is not a "new" story and I have heard it before. I would guess I heard it from you, but if not, from one of the "two well known figures" you speak of, for sure.
I would never call someone like Roland Gassler and dredge up what must have been a very hard time for him. In the first place, I have never searched for the LDM. In the second place, knowing the history of the legend, I have never believed that Walt Gassler found anything and I don't believe any of the stories that surrounded his death. No surprise there.
Some of the things you have said, actually puts an exclamation point on what I have said about the matter.
Since you practically begged me to comment on your "revelations", I will.
I won't jump in with both feet, but just nudge one little toe in.
Can you tell us where the original Ruth notes came from? Are they available for others to see? If not, do you know why not?
You have echoed my thoughts on the abilities of Adolph Ruth, and on what he knew. That's a personal opinion based on what I know about the man and his history.
I will not say anything else concerning your post.
Good luck and take care,
Joe Ribaudo
Carnivores on Ruth
Actually I was not serious about a Lion attacking Ruth. Again, unless they carried heat.
Any meat eater would have left obvious markings even a volunteer rescue worker would have recognised let alone a common layman such as myself. Tex and Adams were neither.
.45 to the head for him, I think. Moved from where ever to where ever, buried, then dug up prior to the expedition I fear.
Any meat eater would have left obvious markings even a volunteer rescue worker would have recognised let alone a common layman such as myself. Tex and Adams were neither.
.45 to the head for him, I think. Moved from where ever to where ever, buried, then dug up prior to the expedition I fear.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Buried?
Knun,
How deep you think they buried him? Take time to dig a deep hole? Cover the grave with rocks to keep the critters from digging him up?
Last thing a cowboy wants to do is work a shovel....got to get off your horse for that kind of thing.
Got to admit, it's a pretty interesting mystery.
Joe Ribaudo
How deep you think they buried him? Take time to dig a deep hole? Cover the grave with rocks to keep the critters from digging him up?
Last thing a cowboy wants to do is work a shovel....got to get off your horse for that kind of thing.
Got to admit, it's a pretty interesting mystery.
Joe Ribaudo
Knun,
We are in agreement, though that would have been a better story to throw everyone off. There are still people who believe Coyotes will jump their fence and run off with their children. Poodle maybe. But I would like to see them get back over the wall with even that.
Do we know, if using the Black Top location, where Ruth supposedly approached from? From where he was found that would be a 5 mile trek if he came the most direct route through Bull pass. Any other passage would have been more difficult and much longer. The only mental error he may have made is a big one. His timing on the season to enter the mountains was a bad bit of planning.
We are in agreement, though that would have been a better story to throw everyone off. There are still people who believe Coyotes will jump their fence and run off with their children. Poodle maybe. But I would like to see them get back over the wall with even that.
Do we know, if using the Black Top location, where Ruth supposedly approached from? From where he was found that would be a 5 mile trek if he came the most direct route through Bull pass. Any other passage would have been more difficult and much longer. The only mental error he may have made is a big one. His timing on the season to enter the mountains was a bad bit of planning.