Adolph Ruth, the mystery.

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Good question.

Some say as many 11. It seems to me there are enough reports to indicate it was multiple maps, the exact number unknown.

The "secret" directions Ruth has are most likely those copied out of a PC Bicknell article. I do not beleive that Adolph had a clue of where he was going or what he was getting himself into.
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Ruth

Post by lazarus »

"I do not beleive that Adolph had a clue of where he was going or what he was getting himself into."

Ditto.

Laz
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Laz,

You are, of course, correct.

To think otherwise simply flies in the face of reason or logic. To think that a crippled old man, with a few maps and an article from the SF Chronicle was going to find the LDm...or any other treasure........is absurd.

Add to this that he went into the mountains completely unprepared (just how far was his daily search range going to be on one thermos of water in the middle of June)...and this was all a recipe for disaster.

P
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Correct?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Laz and Peter,

"You are, of course, correct."

It may be that Laz is correct, but it is also possible that he is wrong. In my opinion, you are both making a lot of assumptiions. How much water was Walt Gassler carrying with him, when he entered the mountains for the last time? How much distance was he planning on walking in one day?
Had it been raining in the mountains, like it was before Ruth rode in?
It seems obvious that Ruth knew where he wanted to go, in a range he had never set foot in before.

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

It may be that Laz is correct, but it is also possible that he is wrong.

NOPE, LAZARUS IS CORRECT, SORRY



In my opinion, you are both making a lot of assumptiions. How much water was Walt Gassler carrying with him, when he entered the mountains for the last time?

WALTER GASSLER HAD A PERMANENT CAMP ON PETERS MESA, HE HAD STORED WATER THERE IN THE PAST AND WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT WATER WAS THERE WAITING FOR HIM.

ADOLPH RUTH, ON THE OTHER HAND, HAD NEVER BEEN IN THE MOUNTAINS BEFORE AND I DOUBT HE HAD WATER CACHES LAYING AROUND LIKE GASSLER DID.

SORRY


How much distance was he planning on walking in one day?

DOES IT MATTER? HE WAS MOST LIKELY PACKED IN, AND HAD WATER SUPPLIES TO DRAW FROM

SORRY

Had it been raining in the mountains, like it was before Ruth rode in?
It seems obvious that Ruth knew where he wanted to go, in a range he had never set foot in before.

RUTH WAS A CRIPPLED OLD MAN GOING ON ONE LAST ADVENTURE AND HAD NO CLUE ABOUT WHERE HE WAS GOING AND WHAT HE WAS ABOUT TO FACE IN THE MOUNTAINS.

SORRY
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Facts?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Thank you for supplying the "facts" here. Now that I know what you and Laz are basing your conclusions on, I see the error of my thinking.

Once again, thank you for explaining these mysteries.

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

?

Post by TGH »

:?:
Last edited by TGH on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Post by lazarus »

"This was Ruths FIRST VISIT INTO THE MOUNTAINS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I seriously doubt Ruth ever came anywhere close to locating the LDM. The entire ordeal was obviously very unfortunate.

Laz

p.s.
how silly of me to approach this with a modicum of reasoning.
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

?

Post by TGH »

:?:
Last edited by TGH on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lazarus
Expert
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:14 am

Post by lazarus »

“In Africa a thing is true at first light and a lie by noon, and you have no more respect for it than for the lovely, weed-fringed lake you see across the sun baked plain. You have walked across that plain in the morning and you know that no such lake is there. But now it is there, absolutely true, beautiful and believable.”

-- Earnest Hemingway

Laz
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1039
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona

Post by zentull »

Tex Barkley and Jeff Adams spent a considerable amount of time searching for Ruth until the end of July. From what is reported they took this task very serious and spent days at a time searching alone and with others.

If Tex had tracked Ruth as he told Gassler then did he just rack him to a general area and spent considerable time finding the specific location or did they find that location in July and just leave things be?

Tex related information to Gassler that could implicate himself. If it was just to keep Gassler in the area, that was a bit of risky business on his part.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Questions

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

No one has said that Ruth had ever been in the Superstitions before.

What I am saying is: I believe he knew what he was looking for, without ever having seen the Superstitions before. He knew where he wanted to be in the mountains and where he wanted to go.

The same thing happened in Borrego. He knew what he was looking for...Landmarks, and knew exactly where he wanted to go once he saw them.

I believe he had information which was not on any map, or in any written material he had with him.

Someone thought he had something important enough to murder him for.
No one is trying to murder us for what they think we might have.

I expect that some will question what I have said here. That's what I would do. Not to say it's not true and not to question anyones mental abilities.
I would not say their theories are "silly, stupid"......etc. If you can find where I have done that, please quote me.

I would question, even the theories I believe are true and factual. I would question my friends as well as my enemies. I would even question my own theories, trying to get others to point out my errors in thinking. That has been done a number of times, and I always thank the person that corrects my mistakes.

The history of this Forum is one of give and take. If we don't have something something that adds to the topics, we could just keep our comments to ourselves.

Questions and theories that don't agree with our thinking are not personal attacks on individuals.

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Post by djui5 »

Tex related information to Gassler that could implicate himself.


What info? 8O
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

?

Post by TGH »

P :?:
Last edited by TGH on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Post by djui5 »

ahhh

That's a lot of "if's" though.

Maybe Tex did move the body, and buried it so no-one would find it. But why? Why would honest Tex do something like that?

Also, if Tex moved the body so it would be found elsewhere, and then screamed "hey, I found him!" people might question it, then discover that Tex moved the body. I think he wanted someone else to find it.

It does all seem fishy, that is IF Walts story was true..
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1039
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona

Post by zentull »

Remember also that Tex and future Sheriff Jeff Adams were together not only upon the discovery of Ruths remains, but the last known public searches in July. It was just a couple of months later the expedition that would be led by Brownie Holmes began organizing. Jeff Adams was part of this group as well. It is interesting that this was reportedly a scientific expedition and a search party jointly. Tex, the expert on these matters was absent from the list of the party.
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

?

Post by TGH »

:?:
Last edited by TGH on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Post by djui5 »

This all leads me to believe that Tex knew the killer, and was trying to cover for him/them. Maybe they were someone close to his camp, and he didn't want all the extra attention... or maybe it was something else we all know nothing about 8O

Peter,
Good point.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

?

Post by TGH »

:?:
Last edited by TGH on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Post by djui5 »

Who knows.

I have read in places that Jeff Adams thought Tex and Brownie were responsible for Ruths death till his dying day. More likely scenario is that they had a hand in the cover-up.

This is possible, that he had a hand in the cover up. I think the answer would be obvious by Jeff's involvement with Tex previous to this engagement. Were they good friends? Or did they just cross paths every once in a while? If the latter, I'm inclined to believe that Jeff came to his conclusion after seeing how Tex was acting during this time. Maybe Tex did something to make him suspicious, as did Brownie. Maybe he saw and heard things that were never reported.

If the former, I'd be inclined to think he had a big part in it. Who's to say that Tex and Jeff didn't know about the killing before hand? It's possible, isn't it? Maybe Tex saw what Ruth had to offer, and got a little too excited? Ahh..that's just crazy talk though. That wouldn't make sense if Tex wanted to take him in himself, as if Tex got the chance to take him in himself, he would have hoped to work side by side with Ruth. Maybe that's why he was so upset when he found out Ruth was in the mountains on his return? Or, more likely, he's just a good guy who knew what had happened to Ruth when he heard someone carted him to the mountains, being quite familiar with the people surrounding the area and the incident. Maybe he just felt bad for Ruth. Just kinda thinking out loud here...
Whoever was the perp was likely to be close to both of them... IF the "moving the body" scenario is to be beleived...and thats a BIG if.
Agreed
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
LDM
Part Timer
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2002 12:07 pm

Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1039
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona

Post by zentull »

I do believe Ruth knew more or less where he wanted to go and what he was looking for. His ability physically to accomplish those tasks is what I question. His preparation mentally should not be the point of contention, but his execution of his plan. In that I believe he was out of his depth.

Brownies devotion to Tex could have evolved from this incident.
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

?

Post by TGH »

:?:
Last edited by TGH on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

?

Post by TGH »

:?:
Last edited by TGH on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wiz
Expert
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 2:55 am

Post by Wiz »

One of the things to consider is that, as I understand it, Mr. Ruth had left his hiking boots back in his camp. This isn't something a sane person would do willingly. Even if he was transported to his final location, he would have put his boots on, unless he was dragged off unwillingly. There's always the possibility that he was killed right there in camp, packed to another area, and hidden.
As far as Tex's involvement goes, I believe Tex had a successful cattle business at the time. This would indicate that he was an intelligent man, used to hard work. I doubt he would risk all that to be involved with Ruth's killing. He might, however, risk covering it up. The whole story about following the cane prints is very smelly. I'd be surprised if Ruth ever left his camp. I favor Peter's theory of the event/perps.

Someone asked who had said Ruth had been in the Superstitions prior to his fatal trip. IIRC, Erwin said it in one of those manuscripts. He said Ruth had made several recon trips into the mountains prior to packing in. For all the reasons already given, this hardly seems credible to me. So, if that is false, what else did Erwin make up?

edit: whoops, meant PRIOR to packing in.
Post Reply