In the Bark notes there is no mention of Adolph Ruths body being relocated. In the opening of Sim Elys "The Lost Dutchman Mine" , there is again no mention of the body being relocated. However, in the last chapter concerning James Cravey we are left with these words "It seems, therefore, that the body of James A. Cravey was transported by the murderers to the canyon where it was discovered --- as in the case of Adolph Ruth." ( chapter 14 p. 177).
It should be noted that Ely does not imply murderer or murderers, but simply murderers. Again, though he was years removed from the search, what is it that Ely is using as a reference ? It was shortly after Ely/Bark were removed from the hunt that Gassler, who oddly remains anonymous during his search, is given carte blanche to Peters Mesa.
Cravey had his supplies brought in to La Barge canyon by helicopter. His skull was missing from the skeleton. Does anyone know where that camp was located exactly?
On a sidenote Tex Barkley threatened Barry Storm out of the area during Walt Gasslers first visit in the area. Gassler mentions that he never saw Storm in that area afterwards.
James Cravey
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Joe Ribaudo
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Differing Stories
Wayne,
Can't add anything to what Matthew has written about James Cravey, but there are a few problems with the Ruth story.
Re-read the Sims Ely account of Adolph Ruth. Does his account match the later accounts of where the body was found? There are still people alive who know the truth of the Ruth story. Some of them are still trying to lead Dutch Hunters astray today.
Do you believe that Ruth's body was moved after he was killed? Where do you think it was moved to? Does that spot make sense?
Take care,
Joe
Can't add anything to what Matthew has written about James Cravey, but there are a few problems with the Ruth story.
Re-read the Sims Ely account of Adolph Ruth. Does his account match the later accounts of where the body was found? There are still people alive who know the truth of the Ruth story. Some of them are still trying to lead Dutch Hunters astray today.
Do you believe that Ruth's body was moved after he was killed? Where do you think it was moved to? Does that spot make sense?
Take care,
Joe
Both Bark and Ely were quite meticulous in their presentations of the same story. Elys West Boulder canyon does fall within the Bark notes 2 mile parameter. Therefore it can be reasoned that he correctly interpreted the notes. That was what he intended I am sure.The first time I was taken to the skull site and the skeleton sight, I found it hard to believe an animal or flood would have put the skull in its final resting place in correlation to the skeleton.
Adolph Ruths profile map was not necessarily a map to the LDM. Adolph Ruth had maps we have been told.....there is Jeff Adams "map or directions" (kind of a puzzling statement in itself) that were followed. Which map was this ? Was it even any of the maps we associate with Adolph Ruth ?
Tex Barkley knew of certain "markers" in a certain area and would not want Ruths body to be located in that vicinity under any circumstances. Tex had plenty of motive and reasoning to move the body. If Ruth was in possession of the profile map and it was understood, it would be far easier to place Ruth within distance of that location, which would answer every question at the time. This would confuse any dutch hunter of that era. That map then was useless to those who knew the circumstances and was incomplete for the equation. If that map was missing then perhaps the body was placed there by pure chance or other reasoning and again the profile map became useless in anyone elses hands afterwards by coincidence. We have only pieces of the information that Ruth had physically and mentally.
Adolph Ruths profile map was not necessarily a map to the LDM. Adolph Ruth had maps we have been told.....there is Jeff Adams "map or directions" (kind of a puzzling statement in itself) that were followed. Which map was this ? Was it even any of the maps we associate with Adolph Ruth ?
Tex Barkley knew of certain "markers" in a certain area and would not want Ruths body to be located in that vicinity under any circumstances. Tex had plenty of motive and reasoning to move the body. If Ruth was in possession of the profile map and it was understood, it would be far easier to place Ruth within distance of that location, which would answer every question at the time. This would confuse any dutch hunter of that era. That map then was useless to those who knew the circumstances and was incomplete for the equation. If that map was missing then perhaps the body was placed there by pure chance or other reasoning and again the profile map became useless in anyone elses hands afterwards by coincidence. We have only pieces of the information that Ruth had physically and mentally.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Two Miles?
Wayne,
I believe the Bark Notes say that the skull was found "about two miles north of the Needle" and "they found the skeleton on the side of a small canyon about one-half mile from where the skull was found. It was in a very rough country."
When you visited the site where the skeleton was found, did it match the above description?
Take care,
Joe
I believe the Bark Notes say that the skull was found "about two miles north of the Needle" and "they found the skeleton on the side of a small canyon about one-half mile from where the skull was found. It was in a very rough country."
When you visited the site where the skeleton was found, did it match the above description?
Take care,
Joe
There is a detailed account of the James Cravey affair in Barney Barnards THE STORY OF JACOB WALZER. Dont know how reliable it is, as Barnard was not above twisting the truth a bit, but much of the tale rings true to me.
He also located Craveys camp on a map in the back of the pamphlet. To me it looks like the location is in LaBarge, but further north than LDMs location. I have no doubt that LDM is correct as there are several misplaced landmarks on Barnards map....a map, BTW that Walter Gassler used extensively in his search.
I have always found the Cravey incident much more interesting than the Ruth affair. That there were different agencies at work in these cases would be my guess. But it is interesting that both bodies were staged to be found where they were...to keep folks from poking around where they werent wanted.
P
He also located Craveys camp on a map in the back of the pamphlet. To me it looks like the location is in LaBarge, but further north than LDMs location. I have no doubt that LDM is correct as there are several misplaced landmarks on Barnards map....a map, BTW that Walter Gassler used extensively in his search.
I have always found the Cravey incident much more interesting than the Ruth affair. That there were different agencies at work in these cases would be my guess. But it is interesting that both bodies were staged to be found where they were...to keep folks from poking around where they werent wanted.
P
James Cravey
LDM
Interesting statement of the bodies being moved to the locations where they were found. Since the discovery of the bodies take up a time frame of 53 years, I would attribute this to a group of people verses the thought of one individual. A group of people who has known all along where the mine is located.
What I find most interesting is that none of the bodies were found in the area of one of the oldest, most detailed maps known to come directly from the mexicans.
Interesting statement of the bodies being moved to the locations where they were found. Since the discovery of the bodies take up a time frame of 53 years, I would attribute this to a group of people verses the thought of one individual. A group of people who has known all along where the mine is located.
What I find most interesting is that none of the bodies were found in the area of one of the oldest, most detailed maps known to come directly from the mexicans.
TC
Doubt that was the case where Ruth was concerned. I think the evidence, such as it is, points to Tex/Brownie/Bill moving the body when they realized that the Archeaological (did I spell that right?) Expedition would be in the mountains and figured that would be a good way to have the body "found" and the the mystery solved.
P
Doubt that was the case where Ruth was concerned. I think the evidence, such as it is, points to Tex/Brownie/Bill moving the body when they realized that the Archeaological (did I spell that right?) Expedition would be in the mountains and figured that would be a good way to have the body "found" and the the mystery solved.
P
Joe,
Not really......not what I was expecting anyhow.
For years I thought Adolph Ruth simply died because he was clueless and just got lost and died. There was nothing that led me to believe he was on to anything as far as the locations of where he was found. I found it hard to believe he even made it to where he did in his condition under the circumstances. Then things seemed a bit contrived anyway I looked at it.
In the Bark notes it is said he had 2 maps, at the ranch it is one map he possesses, Jeff Adams says " the map or directions"......as far as I know we have no accounting of the notes Ruth made on the map(s).
They really did wrap things up nicely right after the holidays though.
" Hey Jeff, lets just ride up over that way.....what do you think?"
" Why...you see something Tex ?"
" Huh? .......uhhhh, shut up Jeff and just follow me okay, its too cold to be screwing around all day."
" Why do you wanna go over there Tex?"
" Listen, do you want to go home or run around for a few more days?"
" What?......uhhhh, okay whatever you say Tex."
Not really......not what I was expecting anyhow.
For years I thought Adolph Ruth simply died because he was clueless and just got lost and died. There was nothing that led me to believe he was on to anything as far as the locations of where he was found. I found it hard to believe he even made it to where he did in his condition under the circumstances. Then things seemed a bit contrived anyway I looked at it.
In the Bark notes it is said he had 2 maps, at the ranch it is one map he possesses, Jeff Adams says " the map or directions"......as far as I know we have no accounting of the notes Ruth made on the map(s).
They really did wrap things up nicely right after the holidays though.
" Hey Jeff, lets just ride up over that way.....what do you think?"
" Why...you see something Tex ?"
" Huh? .......uhhhh, shut up Jeff and just follow me okay, its too cold to be screwing around all day."
" Why do you wanna go over there Tex?"
" Listen, do you want to go home or run around for a few more days?"
" What?......uhhhh, okay whatever you say Tex."
Zentull
You are on the money as far as the Barkley thing goes. Things fit too neatly: Expedition visits Supes, and golly gee they just happen upon Ruths body where everyone else failed.
What most likely happened was...
1) Ruth was packed into a different part of the mountains by someone who took Ruth into their own area of interest to see if the terrain matched up with Ruths clues
2) Ruth was killed, I like to think it was accidental, but he was just as dead.
3) The body was moved and buried.
4) The national publicity surrounding the case make the folks covering up the incident nervous...they also dont want armies of search teams swarming the mountains
5) The Expedition gives them a valid excuse to unearth the body (hence the "green" skull) and move the remains to where they can easily be found. The body is found, no more search parties, no evidence to speak of, everything is neat and clean.
Now as always the above is just my opinion and I might be wrong.....but I doubt it.
P
You are on the money as far as the Barkley thing goes. Things fit too neatly: Expedition visits Supes, and golly gee they just happen upon Ruths body where everyone else failed.
What most likely happened was...
1) Ruth was packed into a different part of the mountains by someone who took Ruth into their own area of interest to see if the terrain matched up with Ruths clues
2) Ruth was killed, I like to think it was accidental, but he was just as dead.
3) The body was moved and buried.
4) The national publicity surrounding the case make the folks covering up the incident nervous...they also dont want armies of search teams swarming the mountains
5) The Expedition gives them a valid excuse to unearth the body (hence the "green" skull) and move the remains to where they can easily be found. The body is found, no more search parties, no evidence to speak of, everything is neat and clean.
Now as always the above is just my opinion and I might be wrong.....but I doubt it.
P
Sounds like a plan to me TGH.
What else is interesting is in Sims book he get's a phone call and "suddenly knows for a fact who killed Adolph Ruth".
What else is interesting is in Sims book he get's a phone call and "suddenly knows for a fact who killed Adolph Ruth".
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
I, of course, can not say with a certainty who killed Ruth. What is interesting is the actions of the major players after the incident.
It seems almost beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tex Barkley or his agents went thru some trouble to transfer the body to another part of the mountains.
If that hypothesis is true (and maybe it aint) just WHO would Tex go thru all that trouble (and risk) for? Who would YOU go through that trouble for? Certainly not Keenan and Purnell.
I think someone would only risk that for a close friend.
Or family member.
P
It seems almost beyond a shadow of a doubt that Tex Barkley or his agents went thru some trouble to transfer the body to another part of the mountains.
If that hypothesis is true (and maybe it aint) just WHO would Tex go thru all that trouble (and risk) for? Who would YOU go through that trouble for? Certainly not Keenan and Purnell.
I think someone would only risk that for a close friend.
Or family member.
P
Are you talking about Glenn Magill ?
Was the forestry service cabin one of the line cabins from the Quarter Circle U ? There was one at the southern end of Bluff Springs at one time or so I was told, I am not sure of any others following up La Barge.
I am for the most part unfamiliar with Craveys operation and his reasonings of why he thought he knew where the mine was. Those springs were not seasonal at that time, were they? There is something really weird to me about dropping a guy off with a reservoir of water, a bag of groceries and a .22 rifle.
Was the forestry service cabin one of the line cabins from the Quarter Circle U ? There was one at the southern end of Bluff Springs at one time or so I was told, I am not sure of any others following up La Barge.
I am for the most part unfamiliar with Craveys operation and his reasonings of why he thought he knew where the mine was. Those springs were not seasonal at that time, were they? There is something really weird to me about dropping a guy off with a reservoir of water, a bag of groceries and a .22 rifle.
James Cravey
Glen Magill states that he got a call from the widow of one of the men who packed Ruth into the mountains, saying that she had Ruth's maps and wondered if Magill wanted them. Because of her son's interference after he learned of her conversation Magill never received the maps. His conclusion was who ever had the lost maps must be the killer.
murphy
I can definitely agree with Peter that Cravey is very interesting. Whether it is by either report of his remains, he is way off course for someone who knew where he wanted to be. He seemed to have his mind set, worked out where he needed to be and was in good health physically. It seems doubtful that he could of gotten lost in that area with the needle as a reference point.
Ruth could have worked out his clues, located his markers, got all excited and taken a tumble or got snakebit. Not likely, but possible still.
What is it with old guys running around in the summer heat ?
Ruth could have worked out his clues, located his markers, got all excited and taken a tumble or got snakebit. Not likely, but possible still.
What is it with old guys running around in the summer heat ?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Why Hide The Truth?
All,
You all have made really good points concerning Ruth.
It's interesting that his body and head were found right where a good many Dutch Hunter's believe the LDM is located. That would include a number of folks who were searching before Ruth.
Many of the maps, that were around long before Ruth, also pinpoint that area.
It seems obvious to me that Tex was involved in changing the story, at the very least, of the entire episode. If that's true, why? Anyone who buys the story about him being worried about his cattle, needs some help with his theory.
If Ruth was killed, and then the body was moved away from whatever he found, which seems a given, can we rule out the markings on Black Top?
Can we also rule out the Cactus Marker? How clever would it be to leave the body where he was killed, and then start the rumor it was moved?
I believe the source for how Ruth was taken into the mountains, came from Tex Barkley. Was it the truth?
The entire story smells to high heaven.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
You all have made really good points concerning Ruth.
It's interesting that his body and head were found right where a good many Dutch Hunter's believe the LDM is located. That would include a number of folks who were searching before Ruth.
Many of the maps, that were around long before Ruth, also pinpoint that area.
It seems obvious to me that Tex was involved in changing the story, at the very least, of the entire episode. If that's true, why? Anyone who buys the story about him being worried about his cattle, needs some help with his theory.
If Ruth was killed, and then the body was moved away from whatever he found, which seems a given, can we rule out the markings on Black Top?
Can we also rule out the Cactus Marker? How clever would it be to leave the body where he was killed, and then start the rumor it was moved?
I believe the source for how Ruth was taken into the mountains, came from Tex Barkley. Was it the truth?
The entire story smells to high heaven.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Re: Why Hide The Truth?
Joe Ribaudo wrote: I believe the source for how Ruth was taken into the mountains, came from Tex Barkley. Was it the truth?
Well that's an interesting viewpoint, and if Tex lied about what happened, then that would change everything wouldn't it?
I'm not sure there is any way to proove anything, aside from Tex, or someone that was there, telling the truth, which considering the history of the LDM is more than highly un-likely.
Even the actions of Ruths son are very questionable.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
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We Agree?
Peter,
"Exactly right."
Nzhogo nandago,
Joe Ribaudo
"Exactly right."
Nzhogo nandago,
Joe Ribaudo
Yes, that was the exact point I was making.
Only a very smart and well-informed Dutch Hunter would be looking for the LDM in the vicinity of Adolph Ruths body. After all, most of the valid clues and your favorite source the Bark Notes (if you disregard the many parts that were "added" by people other than Jim Bark)points right to that area.
Cant possibly see it being anywhere else.
Only a very smart and well-informed Dutch Hunter would be looking for the LDM in the vicinity of Adolph Ruths body. After all, most of the valid clues and your favorite source the Bark Notes (if you disregard the many parts that were "added" by people other than Jim Bark)points right to that area.
Cant possibly see it being anywhere else.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Source?
Peter,
"if you disregard the many parts that were "added" by people other than Jim Bark"
One wonders which "many parts" that would be? Do you have a source for that "fact"?......Not that I disagree.
Nzhogo nandago,
Joe Ribaudo
"if you disregard the many parts that were "added" by people other than Jim Bark"
One wonders which "many parts" that would be? Do you have a source for that "fact"?......Not that I disagree.
Nzhogo nandago,
Joe Ribaudo