Senor Ballesteros and Ruth's driver

[zentull]

However you can apply that to South Mountain, the White Tanks or the Estrella mountains just to name a few places. All have prospect pits, tunnels and pictographs and/or petroglyphs. There are coke ovens out in Cave Creek that are of Spanish origin and I have a grinding stone that came out of my Dads backyard when they dug out our pool in 1972. Found a softball bat 3/4 of the way up Estrella mountain once. Got no clue what that one meant.

There are plenty of pits and tunnels in the Weaver mountains and Waltz actually prospected in the general area. There were Peraltas mining all over Yavapai county, so you could put the tangents in that framework and say the Waltz ore came from an unknown source there. There are still mines being operated around there.

While Ramses found some old workings there is little that separates them from thousands of others. You are a hop,skip and jump from there. Sometimes a quick trip changes perception. It was about a year ago I was curious about the book and went out to refamiliarize myself with the area. I enjoyed reading the book, it was better written than Barry Storms stuff and was a fun read, but it didn't alter my perception a bit.

[ArmchairHuntress]

Found a softball bat 3/4 of the way up Estrella mountain once. Got no clue what that one meant.

That Mom, apple pie, baseball, the American Way and clean living will get you far up the Mountain?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zen,

What you say is true, but "South Mountain, White Tanks, Estrella mountains, Cave Creek and Dads backyard" are not where Waltz sent Julia Thomas and Rhiney. I believe those places can safely be "overlooked".

Got to go back to the begining and doubt the stories that came down the pike later.

Take care,

Joe

[ArmchairHuntress]

Zen,

Got to go back to the begining and doubt the stories that came down the pike later.

Take care,

Joe

Apply Occam's Razor and see what you get.

Brenda

[Joe Ribaudo]

A.H.,

Occam's Razor is not alwayd the ultimate answer but I believe, in this case, it is probably the best theory to apply. The complications have come about through the passage of time and the numerous "new" revelations.

Who will be the first Dutch Hunter to "successfully" follow that simple path?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

We are a bit for a loss without having Herman, Rhiney and Brownie to address directly. However what they did say sometimes does not correspond with what they actually did say or mean. We are working with tangents of the framework that are filtered over time. While there is much better information today concerning what we need to know, there is still a ton of chafe out there. As I mentioned elsewhere Oren Arnold told a story, but it like other stories can seriously cloud the real facts and issues. I still have a copy of Allens book which threw me some serious curveballs for years. People such as yourself, Peter, Wiz, LDM and Greg have been kind enough to keep me from sinking in the muck and staying on track. It is also one thing to know the mountains and sit far outside and guess. If Ruth would have been successful it would have been amazing.

The BLM area north of the White Tanks is closed for restoration now. I could fit that into a conspiracy of sorts I guess. I suppose I could make.....oops......find some carvings in the rocks that would prove Waltz was there.

[ArmchairHuntress]

A.H.,

Occam's Razor is not alwayd the ultimate answer but I believe, in this case, it is probably the best theory to apply.

No, not always, seeing as how it's a medieval theory at best, but in this instance, it just might help to get rid of the extra baggage.

Brenda

[Roger]

John D. Mitchel wrote in "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest" (1933) the following on Page 122 regarding Senor Jose Ballesteros and the Peraltas:

"Ballesteros and his men met Don Antonio Pablo Peralta, the father of Miguel, who was on his way to California. Don Antonio told Ballesteros that he and Miguel had been working a mine in the Black Canyon country near what is now Prescott with Doc. Willing, (sometimes called Jack Swilling), Charles Lovejoy, M. Bernalto Gueness, Don Jose Ebarra and Don Rafael Machado."

The Arizona Miner (Prescott) carried an article on October 20, 1864, regarding the Peralta activity in the Black Canyon area as follows:

"...in the Black Canyon area, Yavapai County, Arizona, there ia a mining camp, the principal persons of the camp being Dr. George M. Willing of St. Louis, Don Antonio Pablo Peralta, his son Miguel Peralta, Don Jose Ebarra, M. Benalto Gueness, Don Rafael Machado, Don Manuel Ramon, and Charles Lovejoy, a friend of Willing. They are carrying on mining and milling under direction of Don Antonio and his son Miguel."

At least the account of Ballesteros regarding the players at the Black Canyon mine is 100% verified by a newspaper article at the right time point. Would make one place a fairly high level of veracity on his description of the Peralta's mining activity in the Superstitions.

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

I don't quite follow your logic here.

Mitchell wrote his book in 1933. One could assume that Mitchell got his information from the 1864 newspaper article, especially since none of the principles were left out of Mitchell's account.

"Would make one place a fairly high level of veracity on his description of the Peralta's mining activity in the Superstitions."

That seems like a bit of a leap in logic considering Mitchells propensity for telling a good story. Is there something I am missing here?

Take care,

Joe

[Roger]

Joe,

On Page 126 of his book, John D. Mitchell writes:

"The following information was given to the writer by Senor Jose Balleseros de Madrid at his large cattle ranch in Southern Sonora in 1910. Ballesteros died in the year 1912 at the age of 93 years. ...."

Mitchell says he has this information first hand from the individual that experienced the events. He doesn't say that he is quoting a newspaper article, just repeating a story he was told. As to the veracity of Mitchell, in my discussions with Ron Feldman, he feels certain that Mitchell found the hidden gold in the cabin fireplace hearth that was connected to the Lost Adams - he had some success in treasure hunting. Mitchell was contemparary with many of the players in AZ's history and was an early searcher of a number of the lost mines and treasures.

What makes you think he is a teller of yarns?

Roger

[Joe Ribaudo]

All,

For anyone who is interested, Brenda is who she says she is. However, that may not be the complete story.

Brenda,

The problem with "newbies" coming onto the Forum, once they have posted under another name, is familiarity. It is very difficult to hide.

You have that "familiar" feel to your posts. For me, that is not a problem as I believe I may have mentioned before, you will get from me exactly what you give. I have treated you with respect and only you can change that.

That is, basically, what I said to kk when she came aboard. I meant it then, and I mean it now. I will assume you are not here with an agenda, other than to exchange information on our favorite hobby, and look forward to hearing your ideas.

Your trust is well placed.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

I trust all is well with you and the family.

Not sure which book you are quoting from. I presume it is "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest". I have a fine first edition and your quote is on page 121. The book is dated 1933 and originally sold for $2.00

Unfortunately, Mitchell wrote another book in 1953 titled: "Lost Mines and Buried Treasures". On page 170 "Senor Jose Ballesteros de Madrid" becomes, "Don Francisco Ballesteros of Sonora, Mexico". The rather colorful portion of the story where:

The following information was given to the writer by Senor Jose Ballesteros de Madrid at his large cattle ranch in Southern Sonora in 1910.
Ballesteros died in the year 1912 at the age of 93 years. His large holdings in Mexico had been bought with Pirate''s loot, and Ballesteros passed the rest of his days in comparative security after many years of turbulent adventures", is no longer part of the story.

This really sounds like a good project for our friend Garry. Find "Senor Jose Ballesteros de Madrid" or "Don Francisco Ballesteros of Sonora, Mexico".

As for why I believe Mitchell was "a teller of yarns".....I have read his books. That is not to say he was not a true treasure hunter and did not pay his dues. The nature of the beast (prospectors) is to spin yarns.

Take care,

Joe

[ArmchairHuntress]

All,
For anyone who is interested, Brenda is who she says she is. However, that may not be the complete story.
Brenda,
I have treated you with respect and only you can change that.
That is, basically, what I said to kk when she came aboard. I meant it then, and I mean it now. I will assume you are not here with an agenda, other than to exchange information on our favorite hobby, and look forward to hearing your ideas.

Your trust is well placed.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe and All,

That is correct, you have treated me with nothing but respect, and I appreciate that!

I truly do not have any agenda, other than to enjoy chatting with folks who are interested in the LDM and all it's tales and mysteries.

But I can see that it might take time for folks here to realize that, and that is understandable.

Brenda

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brenda,

Your attitude will take you a long way with the more reticent members here. Once again, welcome....Without any reservations.

As for Senor Ballesteros......Anyone who has the time and ability may want to research the man. It is unlikely that a man with his "vast holdings" and background would be a "ghost". In truth, I believe that Greg Davis, Kraig Roberts, Roger and Garry may already have the information that I was unable to find. I have no doubt that anyone of them would be more than willing to share that information with the Forum.

My guess would be that Mitchell made up the man. Why else would there be such a major change in the later story. It is also possible, tho less likely, in my opinion, that he was duped by a better story teller.

Seems like a good thread to pursue.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[ArmchairHuntress]

A few thoughts:

Joe said something like I am who I say I am, but that there may be more to my story. Then I got to thinking, is he politely fishing for information on my fiance? I may have no serious plans to get my hands on the LDM, but what about the fiance?

You are safe there, as well. Marty was diagnosed with MS last July. Somedays, it's a struggle for him just to stay out of bed. On good days, his interest lies more in keeping the '66 on the road, and tinkering with his 1100 Shadow, and finding other bikes that "need just a little work to make 'em run." Heat, physical exertion, and stress are all no-no's for an MS patient. While Marty is aware of my interest in the LDM, he prefers to listen to me chatter about it, rather than joining me in my quest for tales and mysteries and talk about the LDM.

Now. Why would a teller of a story change the story later? Because he was given erroneous information in the beginning, or, the story or parts of the story were fabricated to begin with.

Researching the Ballesteros information would be fun, but, I have no idea how to conduct a research, other than pulling up Google and plunking in what I'm looking for. Seems to me you need a point to start, and that travel would be involved in some cases, and travel is not on my agenda.

Like I said, I've Googled Ballesteros and all I came up with was modern day Ballesteros'. But it would be interesting to follow that avenue and see where it took you!

Brenda

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brenda,

I was not fishing for further information on you, or your "fiance". What you have already provided is more than enough.

Sorry to hear about Marty's MS. A number of our clients (Power Wheelchair) are afflicted with MS, and the power chairs give them a tremendous amount of freedom.

Since Ballesteros was Mitchell's source and died two years after telling him the story, I can't imagine how he could find out the original story was "erroneous". Did Senor Ballesteros also give him an "erroneous" first name?

The whole thing seems like a bit of a stretch, but perhaps one of the members I mentioned has already done the leg work, and can enlighten us....Roger?

Respectfully,

Joe

[ArmchairHuntress]

Brenda,

I was not fishing for further information on you, or your "fiance". What you have already provided is more than enough.

Sorry to hear about Marty's MS. A number of our clients (Power Wheelchair) are afflicted with MS, and the power chairs give them a tremendous amount of freedom.

Joe

Joe,

I know how hard it is to convey emotion in email or in posts, and I forget to use the emoticons, but I was smiling when I mentioned fishing for information on my fiance. I guess I was just thinking ahead and trying to forestall any other doubts about my intents and purposes (and that I'm not your forum wacko ).

Thanks for the mobility information. Marty is, at this time, very mobile. He's having more trouble with fatigue than muscle weakness. We've been having some heat here in Portland, and I think that's what's sapping his energy right now, plus he chose to go with the Avonex injection, and the four days of flu-like symptoms can be exhausting as well.

Happy Hunting,

Brenda

[ArmchairHuntress]

Standing at the mine's entrance Weaver's Needle is at 4 O'Clock

That's interesting. I haven't seen that version of that clue before.

Here's another one I just found and don't know if anyone's seen it before:

>Rising above the Superstitions like the Eiffel Tower is Weaver's Needle, a tall stone monolith that is the legendary home of the Lost Dutchman Gold. It was here that Jacob Waltz hid his Motherlode.

On his deathbed, rattled with pneumonia brought on by days of rain and floods that had trapped him in the mountains, he revealed that if you held a cross on top of Weaver's Needle at sunset, its shadow would fall across the cache where he'd stashed his considerable horde of gold.<

From this website:

http://gorp.away.com/gorp/location/az/supersti.htm

It's a travel website and this article was written by someone who took an adventure trip into the Superstitions. But how tall of a cross? 6 foot? 2 foot? Is there a standard length?

Brenda

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brenda,

Actually, if I were really suspicious, I would be more interested in your co-workers.....one in particular. Is there someone else you work with who is also interested in the LDM?

No need to answer, as it's possible you don't know. I will not ask any other questions along this line.....Promise.

Take care,

Joe

[ArmchairHuntress]

Brenda,

No need to answer, as it's possible you don't know. I will not ask any other questions along this line.....Promise.

Take care,

Joe

Actually, I don't know if there is a coworker who has an interest. I've been mentioning it here and there, but no definite response from any immediate coworker. I've only been there since March, so I don't know everyone's interests. One coworker did mention that her husband might know a bit about the LDM, as he was a mining engineer, but she did not say what type of mining he specified in, and he is not employed with our company.

However, I am the receptionist, and as such, will eventually learn something about everybody. If you'd like, you can email me who the person is, and I can try and find out. I'm kind of curious too, now.

Brenda