Jim Bark and the Deering/Chuning Timeline

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Even though it is through the bark notes I became most familiar with the story, it was someone else who related the story of the first trips. Where he got his sources I do not know, but they have proven out well over 30 years later. The first trip or trips were just the 2 alone from what I was told. Schaffer may have accompanied them, but the story seems held up by Petrasches comments of them getting separated from differing sources. Bark met up with them sometime later and he mentions all 3 spoke German. He does however only mention 2 people. The first trip is not the trip that Bark first met the Petrasch/Thomas group. They had already been searching for sometime.

I believe Late 49er was bidding on some books just before I left for California, I was going to outbid on them ( A gift for a friend ) but thought we should always defer to one another as a courtesy. First come, first serve. He got a sweet deal.

Had a great time, but wasn't expecting the triple digits after the low seventies all week. Still is good to be home.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Books?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Thought I had replied to your post, even remember most of what I wrote, but must have punched the wrong key. It's hell to get old. :cry:

First, and most importantly, never ask or give quarter when it comes to books. It's a jungle out there and you should do whatever you have to in order to accumulate the largest collection you can. :lol: Buying books "for a friend" sounds like "it's not mine, I was just holding it for a friend".

What could be better than getting books for your friend, realizing that everyone would be better off if you just kept them for yourself, and moving on? One could do worse than aspiring to that level of commitment. :wink:

Your source could be correct, I have heard that story before. I believe their meeting with Jim Bark took place on their first attempt to enter the Superstitions. Failing in that, I believe they sold their buggy and made another effort at First Water Ranch. That seems a logical conclusion considering what we do know.

There is a time element here that requires the expertise of Garry. I would start looking into it myself, but believe I would forget why I am looking long before I arrive at some kind of conclusion. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

First Trip

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

"It was some time before Helena and Rhiney could dispose of the bakery and go look for the mine. Their first trip was the time I mentioned in the first part of this story." The Bark Notes. (Emphasis in bold by Joe)

Did your source mention his source for the story he told you?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
novice
Expert
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Greg Davis certainly came through with "the meat" regarding the mining claims associated with Jim Bark, John Chuning and other related individuals in the Superstitions. He also shared some additional Newspaper articles along with the legal descriptions of 18 mining claims! Greg, THANKS SO MUCH!

With part of the new information, I wanted to revisit the Lost Dutchman Mine that Chuning reportedly found and the mine that he worked near Indian Paint Mine. I was initially trying to marry the two mine stories earlier in the thread and I now believe that they are one and the same mine. Joe may still have a different opinion! :)

From the Greg Davis information, On December 6, 1901, John Chuning posted a notice on a mine site. On January 7, 1902 John filed Notice of a Mining Location in Maricopa County, Arizona (Book 11, Page 162). He called it the Worser Gold Mine and he located it as being 7 Miles North of the Needle and 3 1/8 Miles South of the Salt River, About 8 Miles North East of Goldfield. 1 Mile North of the Paint Mine in the Superstition Mountains , Maricopa County, Arizona.

The locators were John Chuning 1/2 interest, James Bark 1/8 interest, Frank Criswell 1/8 interest, Elmer Boody 1/8 interest and Bert Gibson 1/8 interest.

I had previously posted the following reference about this mine.
(Carlson and Stewart) Jim Bark told of a tunnel, without timbering, John Chunning blasted out near the Indian Paint Mine, 150 feet long, along a boulder-filled 18 inch crack. The "Chuning Mine" is across from the Indian Paint Mine three-fourths of the way to the top of the hill north of the old building foundation.

I also believed that the coordinates provided by Late 49er reflected the location of the "Chuning Mine".
The December 7,1901 newspaper article appearing in the Florence Tribune stating that John Chuning "has at last found what he believes to be the Lost Dutchman Mine" is surely the same mine that he posted on December 6, 1901. I believe the description provided in the newspaper that the mine was located a short distance west of the Needle is just not very accurate. For "me", the timeframe is just too compelling to try an add a separate mine to the mix.

I also want to say that someone before me had also come to this conclusion because there was a hand written note on the copy of the document. "See Newspaper Article December 11, 1901 about Chewing". (The reference to the December 11 article was a reprint of the Florence Tribune story that appeared in the Arizona Republican)

In summary, I believe that the Worser Gold Mine located near the Paint Mine is the mine that John Chuning felt, and the Newspaper reported, was the Lost Dutchman Mine. The down side is that now I have only two confirmed Mines associated with John Chuning and not three as I previously posted.

All of this information has been figured out previously by someone else and it's probably public knowledge but for me at least, it's new.

Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Chuning and where he searched.

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

We have been to two of John Chunings mines. The one that is left is under water. The approximate distance between the Salt River claim and the "Paint Mine" claim, is around seven to eight miles...., in a straight line.
It is not the mine that is mentioned in the 1901 article.

It is not my information to give to anyone, so the friend who gave it to me will have to chime-in here, or tell me to make it public.

The "1901" mine is very close to the 12 mile mark that Bark mentioned. It is now sealed and has a monument in front of it. My guess is that it is as empty as the "Paint" mine.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
novice
Expert
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Chuning's Third Mine

Post by novice »

Joe,

I would normally defer on something like this but in this case, I'm having a hard time of letting go of the bone. It seems that you are involving Chuning with two mines at the same time. It's not an easy scenario for me. Again I may be misunderstanding what you are saying?

For the sake of clarity I would like to use the following nomenclature. I know that Late 49er is using LDM 1, 2, etc. but I still have trouble following what everyone is talking about.

The "initial" Mining Claim Notice for the John Chuning and James Bark Mine on the Salt River above Horse Mesa Dam is underwater and was known as the DEFENDER GOLD MINING CLAIM.

The Mining Claim Notice for the John Chuning Mine (150 feet long, along a boulder-filled 18 inch crack) near the Indian Paint Mine, was known as the WORSER GOLD MINE.

My confusion!

You wrote; "My guess is that it is as empty as the "Paint" mine."

I "think" you were referring to a third Chuning mine ("it") just west of Weaver's Needle? Why did you refer to the Paint Mine? Are you indicating that Chuning was somehow associated with the "Paint" mine or were you simply indicating that the Worser Gold Mine in the "vicinity" of the "Paint" mine was empty?

You wrote; "The approximate distance between the Salt River claim and the "Paint Mine" claim, is around seven to eight miles...., in a straight line."

Again I'm not clear on what you are talking about when you say "Paint Mine" claim. Are you alluding to the Worser Gold Mine? Also you speak of seven to eight miles. Was this reference added to simply point out the fact that the Worser Gold Mine did not fit the 12 mile Clue that was talked about earlier?

You wrote; "The "1901" mine is very close to the 12 mile mark that Bark mentioned. It is now sealed and has a monument in front of it."

Since the Worser Gold Mine was also a "1901" Mine but didn't fit the twelve mile clue, I'm sure you are speaking of what you believe to be a Chuning mine, a short distance west of Weaver's Needle?

You also wrote; "We have been to two of John Chuning's mines. The one that is left is under water."

The two would be the Worser Gold Mine and the Mine (1901 LDM Found, Newspaper Artcle?) that is sealed with a monument in front of it?

You may not be able to share anymore but I will ask anyway. Does the sealed mine with the monument fit the 1901 newspaper description of "short distance west of the Needle"?

Sorry about all the nit picking but I need someone to hold my hand and make sure I'm on the right page.

There is still the issue of the concurrent Chuning Mining Operations that I'm reluctant to dismiss. I would be interested in your scenario that might explain my confusion. Best of all would be, if you knew of a Mining Claim in Pinal County filed by John Chuning in this time period that matches your mine? The Worser Gold Mine Claim is in Maricopa County.

Thanks in Advance,

Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Confusion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

I used the "Paint Mine" nomenclature as a reference for Chuning's "Worser" claim, because everyone knows the location for the "Paint Mine", but not everyone knows where the "Worser" claim is.

The "Worser" claim is around 5 1/2 miles northwest of Weaver's Needle.
If that seems to fit for the mines you are interested in, I would not argue with you.

You are dealing with two things here: The documented claims and the stories. They may not agree with each other. You know as much about this as I do, possibly more.

I believe the "Worser" claim is not the same as the "aritcle claim". There is no way to say that 100% at this time. Have to admit, the whole thing is interesting.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
novice
Expert
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Joe,

I have been unable to stray far from my original thoughts but I think I know when I'm being humored. I suspect you have additional information that you are unable or do not care to share and wish I would go away on this issue. DONE!

All,

Greg Davis also provided a newspaper article from the Arizona Daily Gazette on the DEFENDER GOLD MINING CLAIM on the Salt River that I found interesting and offers some more insight into the Chuning timeline.

Arizona Daily Gazette, March 3, 1896 (Page 8, column 2-3)
VALUABLE PROSPECT
J. E. Bark Makes a Find Near Four Peaks


J. E. Bark and Ed Metcalf are in the city from the Superstition country, having located a half dozen or so mine claims on the new find made by Old John, who has for two years been prospecting under grub stake for Mr. Bark.

They have at last made a find, and it appears to be a rich one, about six miles south of the Four peaks on Salt river, which stream is said to cut the ledge in two. The place is almost inaccessible, being sixty miles from Phoenix and fifteen miles from a wagon road. They first reached the spot by climbing over craig rocks and difficult descents, but later by wading the river a few miles. A pretty good burro or horseback route had been mapped out while the water is low.

The find, it seems, is the richest prospect ever discovered in Arizona. Twenty inches of ore that runs from $100 to $200 a ton is embedded in the center of a lead 100 feet wide that will all pay well the price of reduction, being free milling gold.

The formation in the low valley a half mile long by a hundred yards side is granite and sandstone, an unusual formation, being below a cropping of sandstone, and unusual formation, being below a cropping of conglomerate, of which limestone is a strong component part.

This almost inaccessible location, so rich in gold, is only a sample of the vast area of the rockribbed treasure vaults of the world.

Mr. Bark is well pleased with his find, and he will place an arastra to reduce the ore until a smelter is erected.
The reference to "Old John" is obviously John Chuning and for the last two years he has been grub staked for Bark. This helps put a handle on some more of Bark's story and perhaps solidify Chunings movements and activities.

Bark's Notes: John had arrived at Bark's Ranch earlier and helped Bark with a well he was working on.
........One evening after supper, I said, "John, what will you work for per day until you get all the water holes fixed up in good shape, those that have to be kept clean from this ranch?" He thought a moment, and said "Two dollars a day and board." I hired him and told him that he would frequently have to do his own cooking, which he said was all right. He fixed all the water holes and then built a rock granary, the walls of which are in perfect shape today. One evening, John said, "Well, Mr. Bark, the granary is about finished and I don't suppose you have any more work for me."

I settled up with John and gave him an order on Goldman's store at Phoenix, as at that time they were our bankers. John handed the order back to me, and said as I was going to Phoenix for supplies the next day, John would make out a list of grub, and for me to have it sent up with my supplies, and to leave the balance of the order to his credit in Goldman's.

That evening we were sitting outside the house when he said, "Mr. Bark, do you know that there is a rich gold mine over the mountain?"...........
We can only guess how long this particular arrangement lasted but it must have been a good while. [6 months to a year?]

(Does anyone know whether the rock granary is still standing?)

Bark's Notes:
Well, John hunted for about a year and went broke and wanted to quit. But I would not hear of it and told him that he had hunted so long, that this was no time to quit as he must have covered a whole lot of country and that we would stay with it until we ran down.
This appears to have been when Bark first grub staked Chuning.

Working backward from the March 1895 article. (2 years Bark Grub Stake) (1 year of searching on his own until the money he earned working for Bark was gone) (6 months? working for Bark cleaning out water holes and building a rock granary)

This might put the initial meeting of Bark and Chuning sometime in 1892 shortly after Bark and Criswell purchased the ranch. The above seems to fit well with the story as Bark told it. The other thing it indicates is that the Bark and Chuning relationship was continuous from the time they first met until Chuning gave up on the DEFENDER GOLD MINING CLAIM?

For me, it also indicates that the time Chuning spent working on the Johnny Ayres' horse ranch up near the Grand Canyon (Developing Water Holes) preceded his involvement with Bark in 1891. (Should be 1892 - Bad Math)

Joe,

I know I have chided you about your loyalty to the accuracy of the words of Jim Bark. For me he obviously got some things wrong but he also got a lot of things right. One thing I had questioned was his statement about banks in Phoenix when he got the draft for Chuning from Goldman's store.

This is just an example of your assertion that history is changed one work at a time.

From the Bark Notes credited to Al Reser in Helen Corbin's book we find the words.

"I settled up with John and gave him an order on Goldman's store, at Phoenix, as at that time there were no bankers."

From the Bark Notes provided me by Steve Creager we find the words.

"I settled up with John and gave him an order on Goldman's store at Phoenix, as at that time they were our bankers."

I don't want to lay any excess baggage at Bark's door if he is not responsible.

Garry
Last edited by novice on Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Abbott and Costello : who's on first ?

Post by zentull »

Jim Bark is ranching in the Superstition area around 1883. Joe Deering dies in 1885. In 1886 the Silver King has a big year. Chuning shows up at Barks ranch according to the notes in the late 1880s, possibly after 1888 when the Silver King production fell. Bark purchases the Superstition ranch in 1891 the year Waltz dies. In fact he mentions the incident of meeting Julia and Company just after the purchase he says possibly late summer 1892. He has his question and answer sessions with Rheiney during the course of that year. If you are accurate with your timeline, Bark already has info from Rheiney possibly before meeting Chuning. This could be the reason for grubstaking Chuning for 2 years then. Still I am even more confused on why it took Chuning so long to even begin searching for the mine, unless having heard and/or read stories of Waltzs death and Julias search he decided the mines were one and the same. Barks notes were probably not by memory, so discrepancies are there for a reason. At no time does Bark mention " If you follow the trail north about 1 1/2 miles there is such and such 200 yards due west, just below the rock slide ". If I were giving you directions to a specific area I could do better than " Follow the trail from the southern end of the mountains and you will find the marker in a canyon, I have seen it ". If Bark met Chunning according to your timeline ( which I agree with by the way ) why do the notes state differently? He knew when he met Julia and Rheiney and don't say he was forgetful or didn't proof read the notes. The story was written with care and to serve a purpose. Some of the discrepancies between notes I believe were errors or illegible areas when copied. I believe the biggest challenge with constructing the timeline is reconciling everyone within the timeframe according to the sources at your disposal. There are things I was told over 30 years ago that made no sense then that make me wonder now. Chasing the LDM is like a Koan, it's really hard and sucks, but there it is.
late49er
Part Timer
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:40 pm
Location: Reno, Nevada

Chunning and such

Post by late49er »

Hi Zentull,

thanks for deferring on the book. Hopefully I can return the favor someday.

Hi Novice,

Interesting thread. Have to admit a lot of this stuff goes over my head.
Always wondered if there was another reason Bark wanted a presence on the Salt River?

Regards,


Late49er
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Re: Chunning and such

Post by djui5 »

late49er wrote: Always wondered if there was another reason Bark wanted a presence on the Salt River?

Regards,


Late49er

Maybe that is the place the Apaches took the Doctor? Or that is where the gold came from, and they just laid it in some canyon for him to get?
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Late 49er,

No problem. Ended up working out well for me, I picked up a first edition for just a few bucks more within days. Karma is as karma does.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Wrong?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

You have misunderstood my position on the Jim Bark Notes. There are a number of instances where his transcript is wrong. The same can be said for every other author, from Barry Storm to Dr. Glover.

The question is, which mistakes are critical to your search, or the history of the legend? For me, I believe that Bark held fairly close to the truth on the stories that he was directly involved with. If he made mistakes, I doubt they really changed the facts.

Since we don't know if any "facts" were changed by others, prior to our getting the books or manuscripts, I still feel that the most logical thing to do is follow the stories we have. Where we can bolster the factual truth with stories/maps from other sources, we can start to narrow down the true search area. Once you start down that trail, you will find many, many stories/maps which, if read correctly, will dovetail into that one area.

Where we have an author who is obviously pulling our chain from start to finish, what should we do? For me, I pretty much toss the whole book.
With Bark and Ely, the overall feeling of truth is hard to ignore. They were close to the events and the principle players. That carries more weight with me, than any of the "experts" that have followed.

The LDM has never been something I have pursued, but I have studied the legend. That includes coming to some conclusions as to where it might be. I have no desire to see you "go away on this issue". I will answer where I can.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
novice
Expert
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Zentull,

I'm still trying to put the story together in my mind and would like to spend some time on Deering/Chuning in the pre-Bark time period also.

There are a couple of items in your post I would question BUT I have not done any personal research on them and I offer the following only as food for thought!

Jim Bark is ranching in the Superstition area around 1883.

I will quote from a previous posts by Aurum and I believe it to be accurate.

"Jim Bark lived in Phoenix from 1881 - 1886 but when Waltz died in 1891, Bark had been living at Humboldt in Yavapai County for almost five years."

I'm not sure what Bark was doing between 1881 and 1886 in Phoenix but I don't "believe" he was ranching in the Superstitions? I'm sure someone out there probably knows and may help us out?

The story was written with care and to serve a purpose.

Many have assumed that the Notes were never intended for publication but I have a hard time with that. The Introduction seems to cry out that these stories are intended for the public. Granted Bark certainly doesn't give specific directions to where he felt the LDM was located but he wouldn't have much of a story if he did that.

I also question whether the notes were written with care. I believe they are stories as he remembered them. We could probably do no better looking back at events after thirty years. I don't think meticulous documentation and research were his strong points.

Your point about the reference to Chuning searching in the late 1880's is dead on. The notation appears in Bark's Notes and it is repeated by Ely as 1889. I'm not sure what to make of it? Bark said Chuning had been searching "several" years (2 or 3) or maybe (5 or 6) when he located the DEFENDER GOLD MINE (1895). He also said the Silver King had shut down (1891?) Joe indicated that Jack San Felice wrote that the Silver King had become unprofitable by 1888.

Joe,

Your point is well taken about Bark's stories. I personally don't believe he was trying to mislead anyone but he may have taken some poetic license in certain areas to dovetail the stories. He incorporates a lot of detailed stories (How to build an arastra, Pete's horse Billy, John's dog etc.) that have nothing to do with trying to locate the LDM. The notes were meant to entertain as well as inform the reader about the legends and times associated with the Lost Dutchman Mine. He was very successful! If there are clues included in the notes which lead someone to the vicinity of where Bark felt the mine was located, it's an added bonus.

I probably wouldn't recognize what you would consider an "important fact" if it bit me! I'm sure that our perception of relevant facts would differ markedly. :)

Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Bark's Conclusion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Does anyone know where Jim Bark concluded the LDM was located? Anyone know how much time he spent searching that area? After all, he had the best information available to any Dutch Hunter.

He had: Julia Thomas, Rhiney Petrasch, (Next to Waltz, the best....)
John Chuning/Joe Deering, Tom Weedin/Dr. Walker, George Scholey and the list goes on.

Seems like an easy answer. Serious question, hope everyone chimes in here.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Statement :

1883 James A. Bark ranched the area around Superstition Mountain.

Author :

Tom Kollenborn
novice
Expert
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Zentull,

I have certainly seen no documents that would refute the 1883 ranching date nor would I be foolish enough to contradict Mr. Kollenborn. Thanks for the reference!

All,

In response to Joe's question about where Jim Bark thought the Lost Dutchman was located, There is an article, "Could I be Wrong", posted on the Doug Stewart web site written by Richard Robinson. I found it very entertaining and cleverly done and if you haven't read it, I believe most would enjoy it.

http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/dutch.shtml

Apparently Mr. Robinson recently ran into James Bark and was asking him about where the Lost Dutchman was located. The conclusion was that it was on the WEST SIDE OF BLACK TOP MESA.

The source for this conclusion came from page 63 (Silverlock and Malhm?) of the Thomas Probert, Bark Notes. (My version of the notes must have had a gremlin because I could not find the reference. Perhaps I just didn't look hard enough?)

I don't know anything about the background but at least Mr. Robinson lays out his reasoning, is not hinting and he does name a specific location, which is refreshing.

Garry
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Mr Robinson has his black lava topped mountains mixed up. If one is at the S/M (you know the two "crazy" men) diggings and looks eastward one doesnt see Black Top Mesa from there...which is certainly NOT a little bit higher than the rest of the mountains in the vicinity. There is, however, another mountain
viewable from there with a black lava top. And golly, gee , from some angles that mountain looks just like an ox......oh nevermind......

LDMs over in the Boulder country anyways..please ignore the above....lol
buscar
Part Timer
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:36 am
Location: Mohawk Valley

Sims Ely and the Lost Dutchman Mine

Post by buscar »

Posted by late49er Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject: Sims Ely and the Lost Dutchman Mine

Recently I was in Downieville, California and came across a hardback book by a gentlemen named Sims Ely. The book and a number of letters from the Pheonix area were being sold at a yard sale by an elderly lady who was cleaning out her garage. Seems her husband had passed away recently. Her family was from the Pheonix area and the material had belonged to her husband. Anyway I bought the books and letters, for five dollars. I have read a bit of the book and have to admit it is quite good. Haven`t looked at the letters yet but they seem to be addressed to Mr. Ely.

I have prospected for gold in california for many years. Moved here 10 years ago from georgia. My grandad use to prospect a lot in the Dahlonega area of n georgia. Anyway we have our share of lost mines up here and i have never done much but just look for gold never lost mines. I am curious is Mr. Ely a reliable source and is the lost dutchman mine still being looked for.

Also is there any museum, etc., in the Pheonix area that might be interested in this material. I would be happy to donate it once I finish reading the material.

I just stumbled across this website today.

regards,

Late49er


Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: Sims Ely and the Lost Dutchman Mine

The book was signed by Mr. Ely. There is a personal note to a Mr. Tom Watson. I finished up the book today and really enjoyed his story. He seems quite the story teller and it seems like he knew what he was talking about. There are 17 letters of correspondence between Mr. Ely and Mr. Watson. From what I can tell Mr. Watson was a banker in Tonopah Nevada, and years ago was involved in the opening of unclaimed safety deposit box at the bank. Anyway Mr. Watson wrote Mr. Ely about something in the box and the two of them apparently prospected your area and did quite well with the material. One of the letters indicated they covered up the entrance to a I believe mine shaft once they had removed some ore. I really don`t understand a lot of what I am reading but they seem to be well acquanted with each other. Anyway hope this adds to you material and given the nature of this material any idea of who might be interested in this bit of history. Whoever receives this stuff I only want it to made available to anyone who is interested.

Regards,

Late 49er

Can anyone provide new information?

buscar :)
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Mistaken?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Your version of the Bark Notes has that passage in it, I would imagine.
They are supposed to be the words/thoughts of Jim Bark.

Peter,

This seem to be an important "mistake" to me. Are we to assume that Jim Bark had not been to the Massacre Grounds? He has the distance fairly precise.

If we assume, all we can do at this point, that the words were Bark's, then we have to also assume that he has mislead us with a purpose.

It's also possible that someone else put that passage in his notes, prior to them becoming public.

It could be that the overall passage was only slightly changed by......? in a deliberate effort to throw searchers off the real trail. When a man starts getting "clever", he will often not be clever enough to just deleate the entire thing. Leave a little truth, to make it believeable and take out the important landmarks.

We know that the passage is false. We know that Bark is unlikely to make such a mistake, so we are left with a puzzle. This puzzle is not the entire legend, only a small portion of it. That makes it a little easier to work out. Our only choice here, is to take the passage and assume their is some truth in it. How do we pull that truth out?

I would do it by bringing in other stories, to see if there is any relationship to this one. Start out by assuming that the Massacre Grounds is an important element. It seems to be the one clue in the story that is unchangeable.

For someone like you, Peter, (been there) that would seem to be an easier trail. Was the distance also changed? Was the "Black topped" portion added in order to send searchers into that area? Lots of trails to follow here, but we have a place to start.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
late49er
Part Timer
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:40 pm
Location: Reno, Nevada

Jim Chunning and such

Post by late49er »

Hi Randy,

Good point about the Salt River. Who knows what really went on up there.

Imagine there is gold all over the place.

Believe Bark once said you can lead them to water but you can`t make them drink. Wonder if he meant the Salt River.

On another subject before you read Ely`s book take a gander at LDM`s ore samples from the Superstitions posted on this site. Once you read the book think about how Ely describes the LDM and how that description applies to one of LDM`s specimens.

Next ponder that ore sample in comparison to the ore samples tested by Glover. Raises a lot of interesting questions.

Keep in mind that the most fundamental aspect of all gold deposits is they are in fact geological phenomena. That is the most importent clue and one that well never changes. The tradition of the LDM is not as settled.

Just the ramblings of an old man but I really don`t think those beautiful gold specimens all came from the same hole.

Didn`t mean to hijack this thread. Just started babbling.


Regards,


Late49er
Last edited by late49er on Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Richard Robinson

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Hard to give Mr. Robinson a lot of credit here, because it appears he has never been to the Massacre Grounds. If he had he would have said, in his imaginary conversation: But you can't see Black Top Mesa from the Massacre Grounds. Can you explain that inconsistancy?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Joe

You are correct of course. The Bark Notes are the best source available to us UNTIL they place the mine where it is, and not where you want it to be.
Then whatever part of the Notes hints at that was added by "another" or we are deliberately "mislead" lol

Gimme a break.

Not that I care where people think the mine is, mind you. I dont have a group of folks I am trying to convince that my "theory" is correct. I could care less. The more folks you send over to the Boulder country, the better off the mountains will remain...



P
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Where It Isn't

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Since you know the LDM is not in the "Boulder country" (That's a lot of country", we must assmue that you believe you know what "country" it is in.

As I have not removed any gold from the LDM, it's obvious that I don't know what "country" it's in. Only Late knows for sure. :)

I know you use the "weight of the evidence" to conclude the correct "country" and the rest of us (me) are a "one pony show". There must be one or two sources that stand above the rest in your files.
Can you share those two with the rest of us?

I will give up a few of my ponies here:

The Fish Map
The Adolph Ruth story
The Stone Maps
The Julia Thomas story
Chuck Ribaudo's conclusions and claim.
Obie Stoker's story and claim
The Bicknell search
The Brownie Holmes search
Tex Barkley's story
Jacob Waltz's story
Dale Howard's story
Dr. Glover's most important "new" clue.
Where Ed Piper was discovered hiding.
The Sims Ely Book
The James Bark Manuscript

Like yours, my list is much longer than this.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Peter,

Since you know the LDM is not in the "Boulder country" (That's a lot of country", we must assmue that you believe you know what "country" it is in.

DUH. LIKE I AM THE ONLY ONE.

As I have not removed any gold from the LDM, it's obvious that I don't know what "country" it's in. Only Late knows for sure.

I know you use the "weight of the evidence" to conclude the correct "country" and the rest of us (me) are a "one pony show". There must be one or two sources that stand above the rest in your files.
Can you share those two with the rest of us?

NOPE. FOLKS THAT "KNOW" DONT SHARE. FOLKS THAT "DONT" WRITE BOOKS.

I will give up a few of my ponies here:

The Fish Map
The Adolph Ruth story
The Stone Maps
The Julia Thomas story
Chuck Ribaudo's conclusions and claim.
Obie Stoker's story and claim
The Bicknell search
The Brownie Holmes search
Tex Barkley's story
Jacob Waltz's story
Dale Howard's story
Dr. Glover's most important "new" clue.
Where Ed Piper was discovered hiding.
The Sims Ely Book
The James Bark Manuscript

IF YOU THINK BROWNIE, TEX, ELY AND BARK THOUGHT THE MINE WAS WEST OF LABARGE YOU BETTER LAY OFF THE VINO. WITHOUT THEM INCLUDED IN THE LIST ABOVE IT IS NO BETTER THAN AN OREN ARNOLD EPIC.

AND JUST WHERE DO YOU THINK ED PIPER WAS DISCOVERED HIDING?
(AND WAS HE FOUNDING HIDING OR HEADING SOMEWHERE?) PLEASE IF YOU ARE GOING TO BRING UP SUBJECTS LIKE THIS, AT LEAST HAVE A CLUE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.........
Post Reply