Jim Bark and the Deering/Chuning Timeline

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Jim Bark and the Deering/Chuning Timeline

Post by novice »

Bark's Notes provide a very detailed account of the mine that John Chuning found and that he and Bark worked. (Several pages from his notes).

Ancestry.com has some historic Newspapers scanned and one is the Arizona Republican (1891-1907). Somehow ancestry.com has scanned the text and they were able to use some kind of text recognition software to index it. It is a long way from perfect, but not too bad. It is also missing 1892 which is an important time frame.

I found several articles in the newspaper regarding Bark's mining operations and they are shown below. Bark wore a lot of hats but mining was certainly always on his front burner. It seems to me that he was not only interested in The Lost Dutchman, but any other possible prospects.

This allows us to begin building a more complete timeline of the events and additional context to the story.
Arizona Republican, March 31, 1894 (Page 1, Column 3)
Notice of location of the "Big Injun" mining claim in the Superstition district was filed yesterday by Jas. E. Bark, Frank C. Criswell and H. C. Ward.
It is not clear to me whether the reference to the "Big Injun" mining claim could be associated with the Bark-Chuning Mine? If it were, it would put the Chuning story in a very early time frame. Before John found the mine that he and Bark mined, Bark related that "John had been hunting faithfully for years all alone, with his three burros."

The Bark notes also state that "One day in the late 80's there came to the ranch a man (Chuning) and camped down by the well." (This appears to be in error since Bark didn't purchase the ranch until 1891?)

Had Chuning been searching for Deering's mine before he became acquainted with Bark?
Arizona Republican, July 3, 1896 (Page 5, Column 2)
Jim Bark arrived last night from his mine on the upper Salt river where with an arastra run by water power, he is making expenses for the claim while developing. He has dammed the Salt river and gains power for an arastra by a wheel, with a rope transmission.
This is surely in reference to the Bark-Chuning Mine. From the Bark account of all of the preparation and initial mining, the operation must have been ongoing for some time prior to this date.
Arizona Republican, October 13, 1896 (Page 5, Column 2)
Jim Bark came in yesterday from his gold mine in the Salt River box canyon.
Arizona Republican, October 14, 1896 (Page 5, Column 2)
The California company that recently signed an agreement with Jim Bark to develope five of his mining claims on the upper Salt river yesterday sent out a load of supplies to the camp. The company has a small force of men at work on the claims and as they are developed the force will be increased.
It seems that the mine was still being aggressively mined in October of 1896, but it raises several questions. There is never any mention of Chuning and now we have a California Company involved.

Was Chuning a "full fledged partner" with Bark?

Perhaps someone knows whether the five mining claims were in both Bark and Chunings name? Also the date that Bark filed the claims?

Could this just be a case of Bark improving the Deering story?

We also find some additional references to Bark and his mining activities.
Arizona Republican, September 29, 1894 (Page 5, Column 1)
Ed Metcalf and Jas. Bark returned last night from the Bradshaws. There is increasing activity among prospectors in that region and a great many promising locations are being made.
Arizona Republican, April 19, 1900 (Page 5, Column 2)
Mr. Lincoln Fowler and Jim Bark will sail for Cape Nome where they will spend the summer and perhaps the winter.
This above trip was undoubtedly associated with the Alaska gold discoveries.
Arizona Republican, April 17, 1906 (Page 6, Column 3)
Articles for new Corporations were filed in the office of the County Recorder. Hassayampa Placer Mining Company. Incorporators, Frank Cox, J. E. Bark, James Burson, Sims Ely and J. M. Bark
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Post by novice »

Another incident related by Bark in the John Chuning story involved Chuning working for Johnny Ayres. Bark got the story out of sequence but it basically checks out otherwise.
BARKS ACCOUNT: John had told me he had worked for Johnny Ayres, who had a horse ranch up near the Grand Canyon. He had been developing water for Ayres. One time when John was at the ranch, I returned from Phoenix, and the first thing John would grab would be the Arizona Republican. In it he read of Johnny Ayres' committing suicide. "Well," John remarked, "I might just as well tear this note up. Poor Johnny/" John had gone into the house where he kept his go-away bag and dug a paper from within. I asked him what it was that he was going to tear up. He replied that when he got through working for Johnny he took a note for his pay as Johnny had no money. The note was for four hundred and some dollars. I remarked, "Don't tear it up, John. Let me have it, and I will see what I can do with it the first time I go to Phoenix.

I made a few inquiries in Phoenix, and some one told me that E. J. Bennett was a silent partner of Johnny. So I took a chance, went to E. J. Bennett's office, told him that Chuning was hunting for a lost mine up in the Superstition mountains, and was worse than broke; that he was getting along in years, as he was over sixty; that he had a note of Johnny Ayres for work he had done on the horse ranch, etc. E. J. said, "Have you the note with you?" and I produced it. He looked it over took a pencil and figured the interest, reached for his check book and asked me who he should make the check to. I said, "To me." He made it to me and it called for six hundred and some dollars. When I handed John the certificate of deposit, he thanked me. From then on he would not take a dollar from me. He continued to hunt for the mine, and still made the ranch his headquarters. He built numerous rope ladders to let himself down over cliffs in which could be seen caves, and which were absolutely unapproachable in any other way. Rope ladders that I would not trust myself at all upon, he would go down twenty-five and thirty feet, and if anything gave way it was "Katy bar the door for John."
From the Arizona Republican, April 7, 1899 (Page 5, Column 3)
IT WAS NOT SUICIDE
Mr. E. J. Bennett returned yesterday from Prescott where he went to attend the funeral of his partner John Ayres who died at Sisters' hospital at Prescott last Saturday morning. It was at first reported that Ayres had poisoned himself on the train while on his way to Prescott. This is not true. The cause of death was acute inflammatory rheumatism with which he had suffered for some time. He was brought to Prescott from Seligman last Wednesday night.
E. J. Bennett was indeed a partner of Johnny Ayres and we have no reason to doubt Bark's account. In the 1900 census, E. J. Bennett was listed as a Real Estate Dealer in Phoenix. It does place the story later than I had originally considered.

One of the interesting items in the account was the original note was for four hundred and some dollars and Bennett gave Bark a check for six hundred and some dollars after calculating the interest. It would seem to me that the note probably specified an interest and Bennett was probably obligated for the debt and he wasn't just paying it out of the goodness of his heart?

Chuning was developing water for Ayres, which is the job he did for Bark also. The interest on the note was about two hundred dollars. It is impossible to tell how old the note was but for that amount of interest it would have probably been for work completed four to eight years previous?

When did John Chuning work for Johnny Ayres in the Grand Canyon area? Was it before or after his initial work for Bark (1892-93)?

Another reference in Bark's Notes relates that John Chuning showed up at his ranch after the Silver King Mine had shut down.

From a web site relating the history of Superior we find the following reference. Both the Silver King mine and Pinal were abandoned in 1888 when the ore was depleted. Perhaps someone can expand on this reference? Is this correct?

Bark also wrote "Although when John first started hunting, he had never heard of the Dutchman, but was hunting entirely on what Deering had told him."

It sounds like Bark has some things messed up and John may have been searching for Deering's mine sometime before his contact with Bark?

Garry
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Abandoned?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

The Silver King was not actually "abandoned" until 1893. "The last year of profitable operation was 1887." Numerous efforts have been made to reopen the mine, almost continuously, since 1893. You can find a very fine history of the mine in: "When Silver Was King" by, Jack San Felice. Had you been able to make it to the Rendezvous, you could have picked up a signed "First Edition". :)

Your work is important in trying to "seperate the wheat from the chaff".
Anyone who is a history buff is impressed, as I am, with your prodigious research. You Sir, are a keeper. Please don't stop.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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12 Mile Clue

Post by novice »

Joe,

Thanks for the info and the reference to Jack's book.

I had initially thought that the shutdown of the Silver King was probably due to the Silver Panic in the summer of 1893 when Congress repealed the Sherman Act. I did not realize the vein had begun to play out much earlier.

I was having trouble stuffing everything into the narrow time window, but the late 1880's date seems to work better, at least for me. It doesn't seem likely that the reference in the Bark Notes of "the late 80's" was simply a misstatement.

All,

I want to make sure I have the location of the Bark-Chuning mine correct and I suspect someone can pinpoint it for me.
BARKS NOTES: Our mine was situated on Salt River, just at the edge of the water, and the Horse Mesa mountain, looms over in almost a straight cliff for over two thousand feet. The Horse Mesa dam is just below about a half mile and the mine is now flooded.
Bark Continued;
I asked him (Chuning) where he got it (the gold ore)and he said over in the box canyon of Salt River, above where Fish Creek comes in.
Bark Continued;
We had powder, picks and shovels and finally finished our trail. Some of it, to put it mildly, was very dangerous, as it was built along a cliff about five hundred feet above the river, and fifteen hundred feet above us to the top of the cliff.
It sounds like the mine was at the edge of the Salt River but the trail to reach the mine required a climb of about 500 feet above the river before going down to the mine? It also sounds like it was at the mouth of an unnamed box canyon on the south side of the river? The mine is now under water? Please let me know if I'm missing something.

Questions:
1. Does the unnamed box canyon have a name on modern topo maps?
2. Is there a more exact location for the mine than about 1/2 mile above Horse Mesa Dam?

If someone has addressed the Chuning "at least 12 mile clue" in Bark's Notes previously, please be patient.
BARK NOTES: I wish to call attention to the distance between where John was prospecting and where we had every reason to believe the Lost Dutchman is........This mine that John discovered while hunting the Dutchman is at least twelve miles off the course, and I think he finally hunted further away than that.
When I take my string and use the Superstition Wilderness Outdoor Recreation Map. I reach just south of Weaver's Needle, through Miner's Summit and Red Tanks Divide.

This appears to be south of most of the LDM searchers area? Am I missing something or is this a clue that requires some additional rationalization.

In addition this reference also seems to indicate that Bark, at least, believed that the Deering Mine and the Lost Dutchman were one and the same?

Garry
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How Close?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

I believe, without actually going to the location of the Salt River mine, you are close enough. I figured out that location a number of years ago.
Not sure how important it is, unless you believe that Chuning believed that was actually the area of Deering find.

Most people have overlooked the "at least 12 mile clue". I have no doubt that just about everyone will deny that, but believe it is true. I have mentioned it to a number of Dutch Hunters, and they all draw a blank. You will find that happening quite often as you continue your research.

The trail to the mine would be around the 2400' level. There is only one place where the cliffs match the description and that is around 1/2 mile from the dam. Not sure about the "box canyon" reference. There are a number of ravines or washes in the area that might end up in a box.

Couple of interesting points here: You are back, very close, to Barranca Grande and if you climb the back side (south) of Horse Mesa, you will be right on top of one of Late 49ers GPS clues.

Wonder how Horse Mesa got its name? 8O :) Also wonder if we have been led away from where our conversation was begining to be focused, by another "newcomer"? Not saying that's what happened, just wondering. :)

The "at least" portion of that passage may be important. Sounds like you are being pulled out of the mystery of the mystery and into the specifics of location. Be careful here, as the mountains have a draw of their own.

Good Hunting,

Joe
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Post by novice »

Joe,

Don't think there is much danger of me trying to figure out where the LDM is in the very near or distant future! My eyes glaze over when I read many of the posts, not from disinterest but I simply don't have a clue what anyone is talking about.

For example, you addressed my question about the "at least 12 mile clue" but some of it went right over my head. Does that clue fit your LeBarge Spring/Trap Canyon scenario?

All,

I suspect I have a different take on the Bark-Chuning Clues and this is strictly from a NOVICE'S VIEWPOINT!!

From what I can gather Bark wrote some of the stories in the early 1920's and he obviously added the Ruth Story after 1930. Just reading the notes, I would be very hesitant to dismiss the possibility that Bark intended to publish them. Just from the way they are written (First person conversations, etc.). I suspect it wasn't for a limited audience. If it wasn't written for the public, who was it written for?

A question I have is how he came up with the stories? Did he record the stories as they were told to him or did he simply create the stories from things he had heard and experienced. I would opt for the latter explanation. (IMHO Bark wasn't a stickler for documentation) Also I would have to assume Bark was genuine and doing the best he could with the stories. If someone feels he was trying to mislead the reader, then we would have to throw out most of what he says? (I'm not saying he was correct but that he believed what he was saying was correct.)

Starting from that baseline, this is what I believe;

(1) Bark believed that the LDM and the Deering mine were one and the same.
(2) Bark believed that he knew the "vicinity" of the mine (Perhaps within a mile or so?).
(3) Bark's clues should be interpreted literally because he was taking the reader to that "vicinity" where he believed the mine to be.
(4) The clues we are reading are not those of Joe Deering or even John Chuning but those of James Bark. Bark may have gotten some information from Chuning but by the 1920's I believe he was paraphrasing it to fit his understanding of the probable location of the mine.
(5) If Bark says Deering went "seven miles", I doubt those were Deering's words or even Chuning's but it most likely fits Bark's idea of the "vicinity" of the mine.
(6) Follow the Bark clues and you should find the "vicinity" where "he" thought the mine was located.
(7) Was Bark correct? I DON'T HAVE A CLUE!

Back to more mundane subjects. The answers "may" not be important in locating the LDM but they at least help me in painting a better visual image of what I'm reading.
BARK WROTE:
We rode to within about two miles of the vein, but that two miles was a holy terror to get over, even on foot, but we got there with most of our clothing torn off and many skinned places.
When Bark and Chuning were going to the Salt River mine the first time, Were they basically traveling "up" the south side of the Salt River to the mine?

Since the trail was at the 2400 foot elevation level has any portion of it survived? Would the only access to the old trail be from the lake?
BARK WROTE:
(From the Bark-Chuning Mine) " So I struck out afoot, got to the ranch that night. The next morning I got a horse and rode into Phoenix that day, ordered my supplies, hunted up a freighter. He loaded and struck out the next day, and the third day arrived at the ranch.
I don't quite know what to make of this but does anyone have any suggestions as to the trail Bark would have taken back to the ranch and approximately how far it would have been?

My initial take it is that it is quite a walk and then to ride to Phoenix the next day (50 or 60 miles?)

These guys don't seem to fit my image of present day hikers and horsemen? Perhaps an extremely rough 14 mile round trip by Deering wasn't that difficult by their standards?

Garry
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Gentlemen; A trip to visit the site of the Bark/Chuning mine on the salt river would make a great outing for the fourm members. The mine is in the vicinity of Mormon Flat Dam/Canyon Lake. I have copies of the claim papers. Tom Kollenborn knows where it is located. This hiking trip is something we can discuss at the LDM Dutch Hunting get-to-gather if anyone is interested in doing the trip. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

OPS!!!!! I made a mistake. It's Horse Mesa Dam and Apache Lake. Sorry. If we go on the outing we may find the old trail built by Bark and Chunning but the mine is most likely under the Lake. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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GREAT IDEA!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Greg,

Even though I already knew that you were....It's good to know that you are "still monitoring this miserable mess that used to be a forum". :lol:

It would really be interesting to see the area of the Chuning/Bark claim.
I think my X is pretty close to the original claim, and that X is in the water.

That would be a fine outing for everyone and we could look up Late's clue as well. If I start five or six hours before everyone else, it's possible we might all get there at the same time. :)

Now if someone who knows Tom Kollenborn, really well, could talk him into making the next Rendezvous, we might even stand a pretty good chance of ending up in the right place.

I believe the trail comes in from the east side and travels west towards the dam. Bark said: "the mine is now flooded".

Any chance you could give us the legal description on the claim?

Take care,

Joe
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They don't make em..........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

If you have a specific question as to what I said, I will try to clear it up for you. Which parts did you have a hard time following?

In a straight line, you are looking at a little over 8 1/2 miles. Having to follow the terrain, might make that closer to the "at least 12 mile clue".

Just to confuse you a little more, I don't believe in the "scenario" I presented. There are clues by the bushel as to where Bark believed the mine to be. Many have been voiced on this Forum. As far as I know, the obvious ones have all been followed....and followed......and followed.......

Someone like you, as far as I am concerned, has the best chance of finding the real clues. I prefer something simple, like the Stone Maps. :lol:

It's true that Bark believed he knew the "vicinity" of the LDM. More than that, he believed he knew the mountain it was located on. If that is so, you can bet he looked and found the mine......if it was there. My opinion?
It was and he did. 8O

At that point, the only thing left for him to do.....is write a book. Since he had no gold, the mine must remain lost. Thus, we all buy the book hoping to find the clue that Bark overlooked and get rich. For that to work, the mine has to remain a mystery.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by novice »

Greg,

If you are able pull the mining claim documents and provide Joe with the legal description, I wanted to put in my own request. Could you also provide?

(1) The dates the claims were filed
(2) The number of claims filed (The newspaper indicates 5?)
(3) The names of those filing the claims
(4) And of course the name of the claims (Perhaps the "Big Injun"?)

As far as the old trial; Of course I was wrong again when I assumed it probably came in from the west. My limited map doesn't indicate to me how you could easily reach the trail from the east or how Bark got back up on the mesas? Again I assumed you would go to the area where Horse Mesa Dam was built and hike a half mile upstream and perhaps find the end of the trail. It may be one solid cliff and impassable?

Joe,

Since you were just playing the devil's advocate with the La Barge Spring, Trap Canyon trail, there doesn't seem much point in "my" trying to understand it? I suspect you have to have hiked that area before it has much meaning anyway. Your rationalization of the 12 mile clue as a hiking distance was interesting. I would still be interested in where you believe the trail from the mine to Bark's ranch went?

You did write in another thread:
If I were interested in searching the same ground as John Chuning, I would start around Picacho Butte and Coffee Flat Mountain. That's the best I can do right now. Don't think you will find that in anyone's notes.
This would seem to match the "at least 12 miles" clue?

One other point I'm not clear on is the "fact" (It seems this is what most people believe) that Deering was on his way to the Silver King from Colorado and of course was traveling North to South. Bark certainly indicates this and the rest of his story should match that case.

From Dr. Glover's story, he indicates that Deering was looking for the two soldier's mine and had been in the mountains for some time and perhaps more than once. If this scenario were correct, it would seem to me that Deering could have been "anywhere" and possibly in a canyon exiting the south side of the Superstitions. (Hence he could have been going South to North?) Wasn't there a story that one of the soldier's bodies was found in this "12 mile" vicinity?

I need to get back to an area I'm more comfortable with.

Garry
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Waste of Time?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

There are many cases where I have argued the merits or faults to a given scenario. The point is not to discourage or encourage a certain point of view, but to show there may be other possibilities for any of the stories, as we know them.

None of the old, accepted stories have led (that we know of) to the LDM.
Why not consider looking at those old stories and clues from a fresh perspective? Year after year you see folks walking the same trails that have been walked a hundred times.

I believe that Deering was traveling from Prescott to the King. The "fact" of how he described the trail, indicates that he had spent a good deal of time in the Superstitions. At this date, who knows?

This is really Peter's area of expertise. I understand there is someone else, who is even farther up the food chain on this story.

There are many accepted "facts" which are not really facts at all. For instance: It is well accepted that the Apache would never dig gold out of the ground. This bolsters the belief that they covered the mines. It also accounts for the many "lost nerve" stories of Apaches showing the location of the LDM to White-eyes.

While that's a great story, it's not the complete truth. The Apache did use gold nuggets, dust and gold ore to make purchases. That's common knowledge. What's less well known, is that they actually had a working gold mine and used the proceeds to purchase supplies when the Gov. subsistance was slow to arrive. That would be.....all the time.

You can see where these "facts" might change some of the "absolutes" as related to the history of the Peralta Mines and in particular, the LDM.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by novice »

Another event in the Chuning timeline is the newspaper article (Dr. Glover) in which Chuning located the Lost Dutchman mine.
Florence Tribune. December 7, 1901
News was brought to Florence this week that John Chuning, who has been prospecting the neighborhood of Weaver's Needle and the Four Peaks, has at last found what he believes to be the Lost Dutchman mine – a rich gold property with a history. Chuning discovered old workings consisting of a shaft and tunnel, which he is now cleaning out, a short distance west of the Needle which can be plainly seen due north from Florence in the Superstition Mountains.
There is also an account of a similar story in Bark's Notes:
He (Chuning) also ran a tunnel one hundred and fifty feet, along a crack in a hill near the Paint mine, north of Sombrero Butte. The crack was about eighteen inches wide and filled with boulders. He ran the entire distance without any timbering, and all alone. Every foot had to be blasted, with no possibility of their being a mine or any ore. I think it was the most dangerous piece of work I ever saw accomplished by man.
I suspect these accounts may be referring to the same thing but I'm having trouble marrying the two? Any thoughts or help would be appreciated!

Is the Paint mine the same one that Jack Carlson calls the Indian Paint mine in his hiking book?

Would Jim Bark be using Sombrero Butte and Weaver's Needle interchangeably?

What did Bark mean when he stated " with no possibility of their being a mine or any ore"? Was it because the geology was wrong? I would have thought that Chuning was every bit as knowledgeable as Bark when it came to prospecting?

Some additional tick marks for the Chuning timeline comes from the U.S. Census.

June 1, 1880 – The census listed John (Chewning) 27 and born in Missouri. He was in Gunnison County, Colorado working as a miner.

There were some major gold and silver strikes in the Gunnison area in 1879 but by 1882-83 they were already beginning to play out.

June 24, 1900 – The census listed John Chuning 48 and born in Missouri. He was living with Elmer Boody in Pinal County, Arizona. His occupation was listed as ore miner. Elmer was listed as a Stock Drover. Elmer was renting the house and he and Chuning were the only ones living there.

Elmer Boody was Bark's foreman and this would appear to be Bark's Quarter Circle U Ranch where they were living?

May 5, 1910 – The census listed John Chuning 58 and born in Missouri. John's occupation was listed as a miner, prospector who was working on his Own Account (Not for a Wage). There was also a column that recorded how many weeks the person was unemployed in 1909 and for John the answer was zero. He was living alone and renting a house in Maricopa County, Arizona (Mesa Precinct).
From Bark's Notes:
We found John Chuning there as at Tortilla station on the Apache trail. We found John Chuning there as a station tender, where he had been working for about a year for the stage company running stages from Mesa to Roosevelt Dam, over the Apache Trail.
This listing in the census for John is almost surely the Tortilla Station on the Apache Trail. There were numerous individuals in the same area who gave their occupations as road builders. (Working on the Apache Trail road?)

There was also a Station Agent listed, Jonathan Babbs and a Stage Station Caretaker James Minter. I'm not sure about Bark's reference that Chuning was the Station Tender?


Garry
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Not The Same

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

I think you can stop trying to "marry the two".

"old workings consisting of a shaft and tunnel.." and "He (Chuning) also ran a tunnel one hundred and fifty feet, along a crack in a hill..." do not seem to be describing the same thing, to me.

One is something that Chuning created and the other is "old workings consisting of a shaft and tunnel...." that he "discovered". The mine that Bark is referring to is very close to the Paint Mine. I believe it is one of the mines that Late 49er has mentioned.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Staying on the Road

Post by novice »

Thanks to Greg and Joe for trying to keep me between the ditches.

Greg pointed out that there was an additional reference to a John Chuning in the 1880 census that fits our John Chuning. John was 28, Born in Missouri and living in Wickenburg, Arizona and working as a laborer at the Vulture Mine. It is possible that both references are to our John as the dates the census taker came by were about 10 days apart. It was not uncommon for someone to appear twice in the same census but it would be unusual if they were many in a different state! I would say that Chuning was at the Vulture Mine for sure and possibly in Gunnison.

Greg also shared information from the Great Register of Pinal and Maricopa referencing John Chuning and he is sharing many other tid bits that it will take a while to digest.

After Joe got me straightened out on the two mines being different, he sent me back to the Late 49er posts. Now I will probably get in the ditch again!

I reread the account of the Indian Paint Mine and Chuning's mine in Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart's book "Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness". I also found what I "believe?" to be a set of coordinates supplied by Late 49er to Chuning's mine?

N 33 29.906
W 111 24.889

I also "think" I gleaned that Joe's, Uncle Obie also had a claim very close to this area?

I guess what I'm left with is the mine (a short distance west of the Needle) referred to in the 1901 Florence Tribune article that Chuning was cleaning out.

Does anyone know whether it has been found and if its location is generally known to the public? Of course if someone could supply coordinates, that would be the ultimate answer!

Joe, you seemed to imply that the coordinates (Four locations) that Late 49er supplied were "worked mines" and not landmarks, etc.? Is this correct? I even dusted off some old Delorme software!

Garry
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Mixing Mines

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

I think you are getting your mines mixed-up.

Uncle Obie's mine was at Second Water....Close to the Paint Mine and close to John Chuning's mine, or at least one of the mines that Late believes is a LDM. (One of Many)

I have seen a lot of digs in the mountains and have friends, relatives and partners that have seen even more. That is the case here.

"Joe, you seemed to imply that the coordinates (Four locations) that Late 49er supplied were "worked mines" and not landmarks, etc.? Is this correct?"

Did I really say that? :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
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I think you are getting your mines mixed-up

Post by novice »

Joe,

I frequently have trouble understanding what you're saying and now you have me trying to figure out what I said! I have reread both our posts several times and I "think" we are saying the same thing?

This is what I believed I was indicating?

Mine #1
(Carlson and Stewart) Jim Bark told of a tunnel, without timbering, John Chunning blasted out near the Indian Paint Mine, 150 feet long, along a boulder-filled 18 inch crack. The "Chuning Mine" is across from the Indian Paint Mine three-fourths of the way to the top of the hill north of the old building foundation.

I also believed that the coordinates provided by Late 49er reflected the location of the "Chuning Mine".

(Joe Ribaudo) Interesting spot you [Late 49er] have given us. Very close to Uncle Obie's old claim..........Just north of Second Water Spring and on the north side of Second Water Canyon.

Mine #2
Uncle Obie's Claim

Mine #3
The Indian Paint Mine Ruin; A deep shaft was observed at the mine by Barry Storm in 1937 and by Dick and Sharon Nelson about 1978. Greg Hansen and Russ Orr said the Forest Service filled in the mine shafts sometime in 1991 or 1992. (Carlson and Stewart)

The mines are all in the vicinity of Second Water along with some "others" that are mentioned in Carlson and Stewart.

Are you indicating that I still may be mixing some mines up?

As for the 1901 LDM mine just a short distance west of the Needle. That's the one I was asking about?


In rereading Late 49er's posts I came across this reference.

[Late 49er] Anyway Mr. Watson wrote Mr. Ely about something in the box and the two of them apparently "prospected your area" and did quite well with the material. One of the letters indicated they covered up the entrance to a I believe mine shaft once they had removed some ore.

I ran across this patent on the BLM Site (The actual image is available)

Sims Ely filed a patent October 27, 1947 in the Phoenix Land Office. It was for 20 acres and called the Scarlet Lode. The legal description was in Sections 21 & 22, Township 4 North, Range 3 East in Maricopa County.

I suspect there is no relationship to Late 49er's reference. (It may have been tongue in cheek?) I don't have maps with the sections, townships, etc. Can anyone roughly tell me where this patent is or shed any light the Scarlet Lode? Was this even the older Sims Ely?

LATE 49ER, If you are still around please jump in here!

Garry
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Has Late "Left The Building"?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Just a guess, but I think Late is still posting. :wink:

Here is another "fact" for you folks to add to the mix:

If one were to take the line from the Cactus Marker, run it through the markings on Black Top Mesa and then continue the line on....., you would run smack dab through one of Late's clues. :) I believe it might also run through Uncle Obie's claim. That line would end up at the Silver Mine? that Obie talked about. Wonder if Barry Storm knew that? 8O

Probably just a coincidence. :?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: I think you are getting your mines mixed-up

Post by djui5 »

novice wrote:
Sims Ely filed a patent October 27, 1947 in the Phoenix Land Office. It was for 20 acres and called the Scarlet Lode. The legal description was in Sections 21 & 22, Township 4 North, Range 3 East in Maricopa County.

Garry
It would be 18 miles East, and 24 miles North of the confluence of the Salt and Gila rivers.

Each "range" is 6 miles, and each "township" is 6 miles. So township 4N is 24 miles north.

Each section in a township is a mile square, starting from the northeastern corner as #1, and making it's way across in sequencial numbers, then down to the next line, and back across, and so on.

Here
http://www.revenue.state.az.us/Forms/Pr ... endixA.pdf
Randy Wright
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"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
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Chuning Mines

Post by novice »

Randy,

Thanks for the information and the link. I think I figured it out. (Range 3E would be 12-18 miles East) and Sections 21 & 22 would add another 3 miles (to the 12 miles) and put you about 15 miles East of the Principal Meridian. Similarly (Township 4N would be 18-24 miles North) and Sections 21 & 22 would add another 2 or 3 miles (to the 18 miles) and put you 20 or 21 miles North of the Baseline Longitude. (Perhaps a mile or two east southeast of the Phoenix Deer Municipal Airport?) Not accurate but this seems to be the ballpark. The only thing that made this of any interest was the fact that Sims Ely was involved. May have been his son as the date of 1947 puts Sims Sr. well up in years.

Joe,

I surrender! I feel like the puppy that the old dog is trying to lead off and get lost. (Cactus Markers, Black Mesa Markings, Silver Mines, etc.) I guess the bottom line, I'm perfectly happy with the John Chuning mine that Bark described. (At least I feel like I have a stake in the ground?) I believe the documentation for the 3 Chuning mines discussed here is pretty good.

I will return to the porch!

I was working on another possible Chuning Mine and I will throw that in here for what little it's worth!

I wanted to explore the possibility of a fourth Chuning Mine. The hard documentation is nebulous. The references comes from the Bark Notes and previous posts by Joe and Late 49er.

Roger wrote in another thread;
Joe, please share the locations that Chuning searched that you have information about.

From the more available records, the only info on this I have seen has been the Bark Notes regarding the mine that Chuning and Bark worked on the Salt River above where Fish Creek comes in and the Brownie Manuscript telling of the Tortilla Flats area.
Joe wrote;
I happen to "know" the places where Chuning searched and some of them may very well have been the "worst place" that Deering ever saw.
Joe also wrote;
If I were interested in searching the same ground as John Chuning, I would start around Picacho Butte and Coffee Flat Mountain. That's the best I can do right now. Don't think you will find that in anyone's notes.
Late 49er provided the following coordinates for a mine?
N 33 25.57
W 111 17.35
The best I can tell, this location is on the northwest corner of Coffee Mountain, roughly at the 4400 foot level.

Bark wrote;
This mine [Salt River Mine] that John discovered while hunting the Dutchman is as least twelve miles off the course, and I think he finally hunted further away than that.
Bark's twelve mile clue could put us in the area of Coffee Flat Mountain and Late 49er may be indicating the location of a mine?

A fourth mine, of Chunings, that he explored very early on? I probably won't get much help here but perhaps where there is smoke there may be fire?

NOW I"M BACK ON THE PORCH

This is what I "believe" the genealogy of John Chuning to be. Most was derived from census information.

John Chuning was born May 1852 on the western edge of Missouri. (Perhaps in Jackson County). John was the son and second child of Alexander M. and Matilda "Carneal" Chuning who were married in Jackson County, Missouri, four years earlier. John had at least 6 siblings. John's father was a farmer and John grew up in Holt County, Missouri just north of St. Joseph.

John could read and write and he was shown to be attending school in the 1870 census when he was 18 years old. It is not know when he left home or how he reached Arizona 10 years later but his parents and some of his siblings were still in Holt County, in 1880.

Garry
Last edited by novice on Thu May 18, 2006 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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No Porch Sitting!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

You will not get out of this deal that easily. Some people are not meant to retire to the porch, and you would be one of them. :lol:

I did not insert the "Picacho Butte" search area because of anything that Late posted. My uncle and Ernie Provence found many rope ladders in the area mega-years ago. They warned me that the ropes were unsafe, in case I should run across any of them.

I assume someone else on this Forum is aware of those areas and hope they jump in here. You are correct as to the 12 mile reference putting you in this area. There are a few other clues/stories that will also place you in this area.

John Chuning threw a wide loop in the range and trying to re-trace his footsteps is an excercise in futility. On the other hand.....he knew what he was looking for. Most of us think we know what we are looking for, he knew.

What we know, for the most part, is where we believe the correct area is. That applies to just about everyone. The most important factor here, in my opinion, is knowing what to look for in our favorite area.

Clues are prolific for this legend, and many Dutch Hunters latch on to the obviouos and miss the casually mentioned ones. Another problem is mis-reading the information. A prime example, something I have mentioned before, is found in the Bark Notes. You don't have to look far before finding the story of Bark finding some campers six or seven miles west of the main ranch. Here's the question: How many people did he find at that camp? Who were they?

That question drove Steve Creager crazy for awhile. He asked a well know Dutch Hunter the same question, and got the same answer that he came up with. We all understand the same story differently. Happens all the time, especially on this Forum. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
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Rope Ladders

Post by novice »

I made a mistake on Late 49ers coordinates. My post should have read on the northwest corner of Coffee Flat Mountain!

One thing (among many) that puzzles me is the rope ladder stories.

From Barks Notes;
He [John Chuning] continued to hunt for the mine, and still made the ranch his headquarters. He built numerous rope ladders to let himself down over cliffs in which could be seen caves, and which were absolutely unapproachable in any other way. Rope ladders that I would not trust myself at all upon, he would go down twenty-five and thirty feet, and if anything gave way it was "Katy bar the door for John.
The rope ladders seem to be a trademark for Chuning but what I can't understand is why he would abandon them and build a new ladder for his next attempt? Why not pull your ladder back up and move it to your next location of interest? Seems kind of wasteful, especially for a guy like Chuning?

Bark didn't say that Chuning abandon them and left them hanging all over the mountains but it seems the implication is that the ladders that Chuck Ribaudo and Ernie Provence and those that Brownie Holmes referred to may have been Chuning's rope ladders?

I'm sure Joe is setting us up with this question and he believes the answer is not the obvious one. It won't be the first time I have been bit!
You don't have to look far before finding the story of Bark finding some campers six or seven miles west of the main ranch. Here's the question:

How many people did he find at that camp?

Who were they ?
My version of the Bark Notes state;
As I [Bark] was riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893, I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas and a young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrasch.
Seems simple? Two people there, Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch? (Traveling with a horse and buggy?) (Since Rhiney would have been about 25, maybe Bark got the 18 year olds name wrong?) (Maybe Chuning was there behind a cactus?) :)

Enlighten us!

Garry
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Short Quoting

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

Let's take the entire quote, or at least a bit more of it. :)

For starters, you place a period at the end of your quote. This is how it actually reads: "....young man about 18 years old by the name of Rhiney Petrach,whom Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted. Mr. Thomas was German , and all three spoke the German language. I had a speaking acquaintance at the time with all three as I had met them in their bakery in Phoenix..........It was generally known in Phoenix that Thomas had run away with another woman, and that Mrs. Thomas No. 1 and the boy Petrach were still running the bakery. So I was somewhat surprised to meet them camped near the Superstition mountain....."

You are, of course, correct. My point stands, most people believe there were three people camped there. Now the question that remains is: When did you first hear the question? Take a little time before you answer, as I seldom ask a question where I don't already know the answer and usually have it in print. :)

Few people have answered correctly.....in fact, none. At this point everyone will say they knew all along. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed May 17, 2006 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by novice »

Joe,

Where did I first hear the question? Perhaps from you, but it if so it went right over my head. I think you will have to dig out your reference (I suspect I have the same references, so no funny business) on this one. :)

I believe I always thought there were two people. What I didn't understand was where the other person went that was noted in the earlier newspaper article that indicated there were three people searching. Bark goes on to say that his cowboys saw Julia and Rhiney later with saddle horses and pack animals, I always wondered about the timeline (my favorite tool :lol: ). When did all of these things happen and in what order, where did they get the horses and pack animals, what happened to the horse and buggy, what happened to the third person and of course who was the third person? I know you guys have beat the last one around pretty good!

Could it be that thirty years later Bark, when he was writing the story, simply forgot about the other person? We might believe that the third person was germane to the story but perhaps Bark didn't?

I'm still wondering why Chuning left his rope ladders hanging around?

Garry
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Correct

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

I have wondered about that article myself. You are correct on all counts here. It has no bearing on finding the LDM. It only shows how easy it is to change history one word at a time. Three is the generaly accepted number for that first trip. Even the best, Dr. Glover, has it in his book.

In fifty years, we may find that the distance from the ranch has changed along with the direction and which ranch. I believe the same thing has happened with the Adolph Ruth story, not by mistake but with purpose. 8O

Perhaps once Chuning let himself down, he did not need to go back up to make his exit. Once my brother and I found those two monuments, we made our way down by a more direct route. I would not choose our path down for making the climb up. Been in that same position many times in the Supes.

You are a "smart cookie".

Respectfully,

Joe
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