John Chuning Finds LDM

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armchair
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John Chuning Finds LDM

Post by armchair »

In his book Thomas Glover reported that John Chuning once thought that he had found the LDM but later resumed his search elsewhere.

In a post last year Joe Ribaudo posted the statement, "I believe John Chuning did find the location. Because it was worked out, he refused to believe it was the LDM."

I'm wondering if there was further evidence that would lead one to think that what John Chuning found was indeed the LDM? To me the 1901 newspaper account would tend to discredit the find.
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Finding.....?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

AC,

Actually what I said was:

"I believe John Chuning did find the location. Because it was worked out, he refused to believe it was the LDM. He started looking at the next canyon over and then the next canyon.............."

What I was trying to convey was that it's possible that many may have found the LDM and it was empty. Their search then took them farther and farther afield. I believe Brownie Holmes is such a case.

As for John Chuning: If there is any truth to the Joe Deering story, the man most likely to recognize the "Deering" location is Chuning. He knew exactly what Joe Deering actually said, not what we have been told he said.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
armchair
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Chunning Mine

Post by armchair »

Joe,

Thanks for your reply. That is the quote I'm referring to. Your point that no one accepts that they have found the LDM if it turns out to be worked out is a good commentary on human nature.

I agree that if what he found fit his Deering clues, that no one would know better than him.

But for someone to say it was the "LDM" wouldn't it need to fit the LDM clues too?

Glen McGill's find was also not considered to be the LDM because it turned out to be worked out, but at least it seemed to match the LDM clues. I didn't think Chuning's find fit based on the detail given in the article that it was "west" of Weaver's Needle. I was wondering if anyone knew more details of Chuning's find and if it did fit some LDM clues?
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Clues or Clueless?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

AC,

Not sure how you can determine that Chuning's find did not fit the LDM clues, just from the article.

A number of people say they know exactly where John Chuning's "mine" is located. Until you have been to that location and seen it, you may want to withhold judgement.

Is there a clue that says it can't be located west of Weaver's Needle? If you draw a north/south line thru Weaver's Needle, are you saying the mine must be on the east side of that line?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

If Waltzs mine is west of a north-south line with Weavers Needle as its apex,
I will be amazed.

It just aint so, no matter how much we might wish that (and my feets wish that ALOT).

P
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Post by TGH »

One more thing about Chunning. The thing that interests me is not where he searched per se....its the TYPE of terrain he searched on that is the eye-opener here.
He could only have gotten that information from Deering, who obviously would have
known where "the worst place I ever saw" was..................

Bark, of course, knew this too.
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Amazed?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

I am often amazed at what takes place in the LDM saga. Having seen the evidence for both sides of that line, I would not be surprised if you are correct. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if you are wrong. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
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Correct Again

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

You are correct again. I happen to know the places where Chuning searched and some of them may very well have been the "worst place" that Deering ever saw. There is no place in the Superstitions that, by itself, is the only place to fit that description.

If you believe I am wrong, you may want to talk to a few other old timers.
I have been on my share of bad trails/no trails and have clung to life by my fingertip on more occasions than it is comfortable to remember.

No doubt you have to.

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue May 02, 2006 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TGH »

This is true. As far as the terrain goes, its nice to be able to search , for example, a hillside if your information tells you a hillside rather than a gully.

I imagine anywhere high up with a nice drop would creep out alot of folks, myself included.....if that was indeed the reason for Deering getting freaked by the place....
Roger
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Chuning's Search Locations

Post by Roger »

Joe, please share the locations that Chuning searched that you have information about.

From the more available records, the only info on this I have seen has been the Bark Notes regarding the mine that Chuning and Bark worked on the Salt River above where Fish Creek comes in and the Brownie Manuscript telling of the Tortilla Flats area.

John Chuning started searching for Deering's mine in late 1892 and he died in 1910 while still planning one more trip into the Supers. In this 18 year period (probably only 10 to 12 years of hard searching), Chuning must have searched a good many of the mountains in the core of the Superstitions and narrowing it down to just a few would appear impossible.

Roger
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Sharing

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

There are times when people share things with me that I can't share, even with my closest friends. In other words, it is not my information to give.

If you are going to use the things that Brownie wrote to determine where John Chuning searched, I believe you are lost. It's not really something that we have to blindly guess at, there is plenty of reliable information out there.

If I were interested in searching the same ground as John Chuning, I would start around Picacho Butte and Coffee Flat Mountain. That's the best I can do right now. Don't think you will find that in anyone's notes.

Most of those old timers wore out a lot of boot leather in those mountains.
John Chuning was that kind of guy. Probably made camp just about everywhere you could.

How many rope ladders did Joe Deering or the Two Soldiers need? Never mind, I think I can guess. :wink:

Take care,

Joe
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Post by Somehiker »

Joe:
As a recent reader of this forum,I have noted that you seem to be one of the most knowledgeable of the current posters.I am primarily a recreational hiker/climber, who mostly enjoys exploring remote and difficult to reach locations. During the last ten years I have visited Phoenix five times,most recently last week,spending the majority of my time exploring the Superstitions area.Although I am not a LDM hunter by any stretch of the imagination,I am familiar with much of the legend surrounding the LDM and the longer term history of this unique area.This longer-term history, coupled with the geological diversity makes every trek up to a peak or down a canyon as good as it gets for someone like me,and each hike brings new challenges and discoveries to value.

My question #1 to you,Joe,relates to sightings of,or the recovery of gold bars/ingots in some of the accounts related to the LDM.What might have been the original source of these items,what size and form did they have,were they all the same and were they marked in any way?
#2-Do any accounts mention gold/silver coins,a gold cross or other artifacts as part of this cache?
#3-Do you believe in any connection between the Peralta Massacre,LDM ore and the reports of gold bars in the Superstitions/Four Peaks/Tonto area.What would the link be,keeping in mind the vast difference between ore and ingots or other gold/silver artifacts?

Respectfully:SH
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What Little I Know

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

SH,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the Forum. This is THE place.

I appreciate your kind words, but I can assure you there are a number of members who fit your bill, better than I.

I never saw the gold bars. The only man, that I know of, who is still alive and held them in his hands, is Tracy Hawkins. Tracy is very generous with his time, and will probably give you a great description of what they looked like. I have been told, but he is the man.

I have heard the story of gold bars in a cave (2) from four men who were there. My Uncle Chuck, Ernie Provence, Dale Howard and Tracy Hawkins. I can assure you that my uncle's story was true.

Chuck told me a seperate story of Al Morrow searching, at my uncles request, and finding the Bob Brady cave of gold bars. My aunt received the call from Al confirming that he had found the cave, and that two more gold bars were missing. When Chuck got home, he was a truck driver at the time, he immediatey rode into Al's camp and Al denied making the call to Maxine or finding the cave.

The gold bars were marked with five dots with straight lines between them. They formed a crown. I am not sure if all of the bars that have been found in the Supes are the same size.

I don't believe I have heard of "gold/silver coins" in the Supes. I have heard of other artifacts in a few stories.

I believe there is a connection between the Peralta's, the gold ore and the gold bars. I seriously doubt any of the gold bars came from the Superstitions. I would guess they came from Mexico. It seems likely that the gold ore came from the Superstitions or Goldfield.

I have heard another story of gold bars being found, but that is not my story to tell. I am pretty convinced that those bars came from the Harry LaFrance cave. They were also marked with the crown.

It was common practice, in Mexico, for the mine owners to cheat the King out of his Royal Fifth. My guess is, that is where the gold bars came from.
Not many of the King's men would be searching the Superstitions.

Don't know if that answers your questions adequately, but I would hope that some of the others will chime in here.

Welcome again.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
armchair
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Al Morrow

Post by armchair »

I saw that Al Morrow had written a book. I haven't read that one. Does it shed any light on his mining activities?
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Al Morrow

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

AC,

There is nothing in Al Morrow's book, about his own claim. It consists of the history of the legend, as Al heard it from others. If you were to ask specific questions concerning Al, I believe you might get some good answers.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Somehiker »

Sorry Joe re:Thanks for the info---I intended to post that reply in the forum but submitted via PM by mistake.
To repeat,I would welcome any input that other members might wish to share on the topic of gold bars/ingots,possible sources,or any other artifacts,especially items which might predate the Peralta era.
On a related topic,has anyone ever seen,or read/heard of the existence of a roughly round disk of gold with a symbol like this (II) within a circle on one side?
On the same vein-pun intended-I noticed another thread,and I hope that I am not straying too far from from the thread topic here,I read that despite the existence of arrastras in the area that no-one had, as yet discovered what could have been used to produce charcoal or coke in large quantities.
Last friday,on an exploratory hike in the area of Coronado Mesa,I found an alcove in a small canyon that might fit what would be required to create large amounts of charcoal.About three feet interior height x thirty feet wide x twenty feet deep,this alcove had a ceiling that was entirely coated,side to side and front to back in a thick layer of soot despite being too low for comfortable human shelter.Two other features which I found unusual to what I have seen previously,were an almost perfectly-graded floor,with no large rocks or other debris,and the type of geological formation of which this "cave" is part of.I did not however,investigate further,finding the low ceiling and sharp gravel floor a bit too uncomfortable,this day being my sixth in a row of hiking.If anyone is interested in looking into this,PM me and I will provide directions so long as you agree to share your findings and opinions of what you may discover.SH
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Shades Of Joe Deering

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Now, SH, Don't you go throwing such a fast ball at all these old timers. :lol: That's a really nice find. Why?.....Because it's around two miles from the Salt River and only around two and a half miles from the Chuning/Bark claim. What do it mean? 8O

It is also located smack dab in the middle of Barranca Grande. Some of you old timers may want to look up Barranca and see if it rings any bells from the Joe Deering story. :)

Nice work. I think you may find a few takers on your offer. Did you get pictures and take a GPS reading?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Somehiker »

Didn't mean to spook anyone here,but I did find this general area to be interesting enough on a previous hiking trip that this trip found me spending the entire six days there.Although I do carry a gps with me,I rarely use it unless I feel that I might have trouble finding my way back.In this case I did not get a gps co-ord,however simple instructions would enable any of you to find it.I will be happy to provide directions to any (well almost any)location at which I have found evidence of the hand-of-man as it relates to the history of this area and the interests of the members of the forum.Yes,I did take a couple of pics of the alcove,shot eight rolls of film over six days altogether,and will be willing to post or E-mail same as soon as I get them developed and scanned(probably later next week).SH
ps:I am sadly unfamiliar with the Chuning/Bark claim story and the placename? Barranca Grande-will have to google again.Thanks
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Time Saver

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Just to save some time, a barranca is a steep sided gorge, gully or ravine.
The one in question is BIG. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Somehiker »

Undoubtedly that fly,bee and mosquito infested hell-hole that I hiked on tuesday,but at least the lizards were happy with the menu. :roll: SH.
Joe Ribaudo
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Change In Venue

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

SH,

Ah-ha! Maybe that's why Deering would not spend the night. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
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Keeping It Real

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

I recently had to send out this message, again.

"Due to past problems, I don't exchange private messages or e-mails with anyone, unless I have their full name, address, phone number and
e-mail address.

You will receive the same information from me in return. I understand if you don't want to do that, but will confine our conversations to the Forum."

From time to time someone will still try to exchange private messages with me, so.....I will not deviate from this rule, so don't waste your time.

Most have no problem with exchanging their private information with me.
I understand why some won't. Anyone who is an old member trying to establish a new ID, for whatever reason, is unlikely to respond to the above message. Happens a lot. :)

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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