Deerings Trail

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
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Wrong?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

You are indeed in good company when it comes to making mistakes concerning the LDM legend.

While Dr. Glover has written the best book yet on the LDM, it is not without mistakes. Some of those he recognized himself, and corrected them in his second edition.

Here is what he said: "Searching around he spotted the animal half way up the side of the mountain and about a mile-and-a-half from camp." (emphasis in bold by Joe)

That seems plain enough to me. He went looking for his burro and (eventually) spotted it half way up the side of a mountain and a mile and a half from his camp. That does not mean, as Peter hinted, that he saw the animal from a mile and a half away.

Dr. Glover got his information from many sources. While he did a terrific job, you can't expect that he would run down the minor details of every story. No one does that.

Lots of nit-picking here about some really minor details. They have no real bearing on where Joe Deering ended up. We all understand what we read differently. A prime example, one I have mentioned in the past, is: How many people did Jim Bark find camped "while riding the range about six miles west of the home ranch in August 1892 or 1893"? Who were they?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by zentull »

Was I nitpicking? Probably. I just figure that from point A (Deerings camp) to point B (Burro) how did he make his approach and where did he cut the trail at. This would work better knowing where he actually camped at, but its a start. Before reaching the Burro I am sure. Or maybe not. Did he hear the burro and sighted him later on? Most of us would not climb up and across to the burro, so I was wondering how far before you start up the mountain. Chances are he would hit that trail before the burro then. Or did he run across it after reaching the burro and starting back bya different route. I dont see him finding the trail, getting excited and then getting the burro and going back to it. I dont see him leaving the burro either. Each choice or slight difference puts you in a slightly different area. You know as well as I do that a few hundred yards can be a literal world of difference. This could be even more of a distance than that. The trail excited him enough to spend the day following it. Sure would like to give him a pedometer and compass.
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Excited?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Don't know how excited Deering really got, or if he actually got excited at all. There are many trails in the Superstitions that are worn into the bedrock. Some even look like wagon wheel ruts.

It seems to me we are dancing around the important facts? and dwelling on the minutia. That is usually done here with a specific purpose in mind.

The two of you are up pretty late tonight. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by zentull »

Theres no better time to think then when everyones asleep and I can sit in the dark and just dwell on nothing and everything.

We all try to minimize things to fit, what if Deering is accurate on his mileage and in typical dutch fashion we are trying to move ourselves from the course. I believe a lot of people get on the right track and then are either distracted or let personal opinion overide the facts. We critisize those in the past for doing so, yet we do it all the time. Thanks to you Joe I was up half the night starting from every spot I could think was possible. Woke up this morning and my feet even hurt.

Deering could of camped at several locations. Being monsoon season there was possibly water at each spring. May or June would narrow the possibilities a bit in my opinion. Peters canyon could be Javelina canyon as far as I am concerned. The canyon was named for a reason, possibly some cowhand had a bad run in with pigs or it was a hot spot for hunting pigs. So which canyons had name changes we know of in the 20s or 30s. Was it even a significant area or just a nickname for a section of a canyon? Barkley, Bark and Holmes dont give us a location. Each had to have an idea during the early years. All the old cowboys I knew as a boy are gone long ago. One was a trail cook and knew every story written it seemed. I never asked questions, I was just a young pup and in those days you didn't interrupt. There so much we all could answer concerning topography if we just knew what to ask years ago. I got names ingrained concerning places, because that was the name I was told.

I just don't really feel theres anything concrete concerning Deerings camp site and the initial direction he started in. Trust me your route is playing in the back of my mind.

Bluff springs is a good couch to sit on. Can't watch the TV from a bad angle.
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Theories

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

We do have a few things that seem firm in this story, at least from the Bark/Chunning angle.

Big Canyon
Spring (Camp)
Up The Big Canyon
Into Horse Country
Down Peter's Mesa

Once again, the three keys for me, are: Going up the big canyon from a spring, ending up in "horse country" and then going down Peter's Mesa. To go down Peter's Mesa, you must start on the southeast end and end up on the northwest end around Peter's Trail.

Now you can throw all the name changes and distance problems into the mix if you want to, but that will get you into New Mexico. Got to go with what we know and what those who were closest to the events have told us, even if they lied. Agreed? Beyond that, you are making up clues to fit the area you like.

For me, I don't really have a favorite area. I am going with the best evidence available and my knowledge of the stories and the mountains.
That don't mean beans to you old timers, but it's all I got.

You guys might want to reread my theory, and tell me where I have gone wrong. Not "I think", "Wrong" or any of the other one or two word reasons, but valid reasoning, well thought out and expressed. Lots of that out there, just not in here.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by TGH »

>>To go down Peter's Mesa, you must start on the southeast end and end up on the northwest end around Peter's Trail. <<

Well, if one stood on the southern end of Malapais, one might head "down" Peters Mesa simply by heading south.

Something to take into consideration is what palces were known as way back when. Malapais Mtn was known, of course, as Black Mountain. The northern end of Peters Mesa (north of the Salt flats) was considered Malapais Mtn. Peters Mesa was considered the area south of the Salt Flats heading down toward Music Mtn.

Getting back to Havalina Canyon...I seem to recall someone telling me that part of Peters Canyon (the southern end with the FS trail heading up to Peters Saddle) was at one time known as Havalina Canyon. This puts it in the area (sort of) of "Joe's" Deering trail. But it is not high up and is open to ambuscade, if that part of the Bark info is to be beleived.

Had it not been for the fact that the Willow was supposedly found down in Labarge, then it seems to make more sense that Deering camped over in the Tortilla area.

Anyone confused yet? I sure am.

P
Joe Ribaudo
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Confusion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

The entire point of this thread, is to create confusion. That is true from every participant.

The confusion is caused by trying to take my theory apart by causing confusion on the parts, not the whole. Your argument would hold a little promise, if you started at the south end of Malapais and only went a mile or so onto Peter's Mesa, say the saddle between the two. That would be where most people would end up, if they started around the junction of Peter's Canyon and Tortilla Creek. That, by the way, is where most people do start.....well, close to where they start.

If you assume that Peter's Mesa ends or starts, depending on which direction you are traveling, around the wash that comes off of the east side of Malapais/Black Mountain, then you would travel around 1 1/4 miles to the saddle between the two.

You would be starting around 3300' elevation and end up around 3400'. The only thing you would be going down, would be the wash on Malapais.
If, on the other hand, you did not go to the saddle but made a turn south into the top of Spuaw Canyon, you could say you went down Peter's Mesa.

There is no way that any of that trail, could be said to go into "horse country". The other problem is that following that trail, you do not stay "always high up". You must travel through a good many places which are perfect for our "Indian ambuscade".

You are turning the directions around to fit your theory. Deering finds his burro 1 1/2 miles from his camp. That means that the trail will be found 1 1/2 miles up the canyon from his camp, and half way up a mountain. The trail he found "went up Havalina Canyon over into the horse country" and then "down Peters Mesa to Charlebois trail and thence to Marsh Valley (their camp)

How do you make all of that happen, traveling over Geronimo Head, Malapais Mountain and then down that wash onto Peter's Mesa? There is only one way. You must throw out every word that Bark writes about this trail, under "PHYSICAL EVIDENCE".

Now that we have that pesky Bark out of the way, where shall we turn for our directions? Who will you trust for the Joe Deering Story? Just how many people did John Chuning confide in? Who's trail are you following?

Do I recall that you said you had changed your mind about the trail you once believed was the correct one?

Wow, what a rant. I believe you will have answers for it all. :lol: Bedtime.

Take care,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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Timing Is Everything

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

I believe Deering was in the mountains in August.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by TGH »

As soon as I wade thru that post I will try to answer it. I think it will take a bit.

You are correct, August is most likely the general timeframe for Deering.

P
Joe Ribaudo
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Lucky?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Just a lucky guess.

Don't hurt yourself fighting thru that post. I doubt there is anything important in it. :)

Take care,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

Joe,

I believe the only thing besides the distances I was questioning was Trap Canyon and the location of Javelina canyon. I believe the 2 highest percentage starting points are Charlebois and La Barge Springs. In both cases I doubt the Trap Canyon path. Possibly Music Canyon or the south side of Music mountain seem more appropriate choices. I am not as familiar with those areas, but never have run across a trail that would grab me as the one Deering found. Trap Canyon is a small percentage possibility unless Deering followed the Burro as it continued along the mountainside after spotting it half way up the mountain from closer to his camp. It still seems a bit out of the way and a rather odd place for the burro to end up geographically speaking. His 1 1/2 miles could be following the burro as it continued its course. I believe from the two mentioned starting points that my 2 choices are more appropriate. Both those choices put us near horse country and peters canyon, which I believe could be Javelina canyon. The order could be confusing, but the pieces fit for me. However I end up closer to the Salt, but in a different direction, unless I reverse the order of Barks notes concerning horse country and Javelina Canyon or horse country is just meant as reference of direction and general locale before turning west. I spent the last 48 hours really trying to ignore the map and visualize where I was. Could the area by sheep spring be Javelina canyon? I believe it is a possibility, most likely from La Barge. I did find oddly enough that if I reverse the order and start at Marsh Valley/Squaw canyon over Peters Mesa to Peters Canyon to Horse country and back to one of the camp possibilities it fit like a koan. All my pieces then fit in a reverse order which means I am enlightened or very confused. If Horse country is Peters Mesa or thereabouts, rather than our present day thinking, it fits together nicely. we do know that Bark probably compiled the notes years after and there could be honest discrepancies.


I don't know how many times I have made a trip and whoever was with me was surprised at the distance and time we had spent on the trail. They always believe we had covered a greater distance over a longer time period. Where I thought we were just warmed up, they were ready to turn around. Familiarity not only shortens distances for us but breeds contempt for the guide sometimes. I believe Deering thought his distances were accurate, but it was his lack of time in the mountains that most likely increased those distances. Barks notes gives me the feeling Deering spent very little time in the mountains. Holmes gives us a very different story entirely.

The solution is each of us take our different route and at our possible/predetermined intersection we have lunch and compare notes. I am thinking we have 4 routes presented as possibilities so we need 4 idiots. I can attest to being one because my wife has told me so quite frequently.

sidenote: after Roger was kind enough to email me the maps, my wife mentioned that we were all idiots. She asked me what the reason was for maps when we as men will never listen to directions, never ask for help when lost and end up making shortcuts that risk life and limb, because the map we have doesn't follow the dementia in our brains. I told her that maps were cool and that we needed something to replace baseball cards since we are big boys now.
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Post by TGH »

Zentull

Well done.

P
Joe Ribaudo
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Very Nice!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

I am really beginning to like you. Great sense of humor, which is like having a life preserver in these waters.

Your two choices for Deering's camp site are, without argument, the likeliest and the most logical...., considering the available evidence. If I had to personally pick a campsite, it would be LaBarge Spring.

If I had to pick one using only the story, as we know it, I would choose LaBarge Spring. The problem with Charlebois Spring, is that if you go
1 1/2 miles up the big canyon, you will be looking up towards a very steep climb. Not much reason for a burro to wander into that area.

On the other hand, if you are at LaBarge Spring and go 1 1/2 miles up the big canyon, you will find yourself in the area just south of Sheep Mountain Spring. Once into that area you will find your trail turning east and following a ridge line over into the horse country. At this point, where do you go? Do you drop down into the basin and pick up Peter's Trail, following it up to Peter's Mesa? You could, but you would need to leave the story behind you.

It is much more likely, that your trail turns out of the basin to the southwest and makes a quick climb up to the top of Music Mountain. You then proceed down Peter's Mesa....... You have spent a minimal amount of time in the low areas and a maximum amount in the "high up" country.

Not much chance anywhere on that trail for an ambush. Even the trail up to Music Mountain follows a ridge with a drop off on both sides. The thing is, that if you follow the story, you have to drop into the horse country, prior to going down Peter's Mesa.

All things considered, my original trail still seems to be the closest to the story. The TRAIL down into Squaw Canyon remains the best bet for the location of the "rincon". I believe you are very close to the truth, but I would not mix the clues. Take them as if they were gold. :) Music Mountain.....Good call, Zen. "Valid reasoning, well thought out and expressed".

All we need now, are some Mexican fire beds and a Tonto Apache named Jack, sweating bullets while standing on the northeast corner of Black Mountain. (Got so sick, he died) I mean, wouldn't that just make the whole story perfect? :lol:

Take care,

Joe
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Eureka

Post by Sam Brannan »

Joe,

So I guess that means the LDM is somewhere in the 3390-3412-3465 triangle. I've got a month until dredge season opens. Time to dust off the old canteen. Now if I only had gas money to get down there. :cry:

Sam Brannan
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deering trail

Post by bill711 »

Pete/joe: which spring is the closest and has the best campsite that is defensable from attack? Bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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Best Camp

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

I would probably choose LaBarge Spring, considering your criteria. I believe the water is, or was, more reliable. Others could probablly give you a more current appraisal.

Take care,

Joe
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Chuning's Initial Search Area

Post by Roger »

The one person that had some first hand information on where the LDM was located was John Chuning. He had obtained sufficient information from Deering to be able to narrow his search area down to something reasonable (even though he widened his search area over the years due to his lack of success).

Here is a quote from the 1990 SMHS Reprint of "The Story of the Lost Dutchman" by George (Brownie) Holmes 1944 (Pages 29 to 30):

"When he learned of the passing of Jacob Wolz, and of the many stories connected with the old German, Chuning realized he had passed up one of the major opportunities of his career as a mining man. He procured an outfit and went to Tortilla Springs, where he set up a permanent camp."

"Chuning confined his search to the high hills in the vincity of Tortilla Springs; he built ladders to climb up and down sheer cliffs; and some of these ladders are still there."

Note that Tortilla Springs here is just East of the Apache Trail and Tortilla Creek in the Tortilla Flats area. This is the same spot that Dick Holmes trailed Waltz to when Waltz was waiting for him with a shotgun.

Regardless of where the deep trail started in La Barge, if the trail did go over into Horse Country, which canyon is Javelina Canyon, where the marked willow tree was located as well as the stone markers in the canyon and the other clues mentioned in this thread --- Chuning with his first hand info from Deering began his search on the high cliffs of Geromino Head and Tortilla Mtn. Coincidence?? Suspect not.

Roger
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Coincidence?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

The one person I would never use as an expert on the thoughts of John Chuning, would be Brownie Holmes. I believe the old man was pretty tight lipped with Brownie.

Just how much time did Chuning's partner (Jim Bark) spend searching the area of Tortillia Springs? John left NO personal writings concerning the story. He told Bark what he could.

IMHO, Bark is the Only credible source for the story. Brownie origiinally claimed he had never seen the manuscript that he is credited with writing. That is a little more than strange. 8O

If Brownie really believe that the mine was in the Tortillia Spring area, just when did he do his own searching there? Was that the first place he looked? That would be a NO. That story, as well as his dad's was nothing more than a smokescreen. Sometimes I wonder if we are all reading the same stories. If so......I must be the dumbest old man around.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Roger
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Chuning's Search

Post by Roger »

I agree that Brownie Holmes claimed to have no association with the LDM manuscript that carries his name. Did he really not write it or did he write it possibly to attract investors and didn't want it public as it contained too many specifics? We will never know.

The Brownie of the LDM manuscript states clearly that he believed that Chuning was searching in the wrong location as he wrote on Page 29, "I spent several days with him, during which time, I learned he was far from being on the right track".

It is interesting that the Holmes manuscript has a number of "facts" that are valid against other sources such as the description of Deering placing 5 markers near the mine in the canyon to the south, the Pipps story, plus others. At the same time, I don't believe the Waltz deathbed story in the manuscript for a moment and the story of how Waltz covered the mine with timbers and dirt just doesn't match the other stories such as those in the Bark Notes which are from individuals that saw the mine including Waltz.

Again, wheat and chaff -- what to keep, what to throw.

Roger
Joe Ribaudo
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What To Throw?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

"Again, wheat and chaff -- what to keep, what to throw."

Therein lies the problem. Not what to keep and what to throw, but not using the real weight of the clues to decide for you. You seperate the wheat and the chaff, by throwing it into the air and letting the breeze seperate the two. What remains is what you keep.

For me, there is no real weight in anything that Brownie says which comes from others. What he did himself, has some weight.

In reading the "Holmes" manuscript, I am struck by the dishonesty found from start to finish. There are things that we all know are false. Not just believe, but know.

We start with Dick Holmes deciding to follow Waltz to his mine, and take what he wants. If the old man were to catch him, we can assume that a gunfight might result. If Dick had to kill him, while in the act of stealing what was rightfully his, would he have done it? When bullits are flying, someone winds up dying. :)

Now Waltz dies, and Dick Holmes steals the ore from under his bed. I think everyone agrees that's what happened. Dick tells his son that Waltz wanted him to have the ore, and the mine. Tells him three ways to get to the location. He also admits to killing seven men, including his nephew and molesting their burros. :) Am I close, so far?

At this point they make some disparaging remarks about Waltz's "negroess housekeeper". Good idea to discredit the bitch who claimed the ore was her's. I suppose because it was in her house. The nerve of those darkies.

Of their first trip together, Brownie says this of his dad: I did not then realize that my father felt that he would never be able to locate the Lost Dutchman". 8O This was in 1908. They ended up camped at "Cane Spring".
They did not seriously look for the LDM. I believe that was the only trip, of consequence, that the two made together.

When Brownie finally made his first solo trip into the mountains, taking a young friend, he says: "After seven days of travel accross the Verde and the Salt River, up through mountains passes and canyon and over hills we finally found ourselves camped at Indian Springs. We camped at the spot for about three weeks familiarizing ourselves with the many canyons and other landmarks....." "Cane Spring....Indian Spring", mighty close to "Horse Country". 8O

Next trip Brownie moves over to "Marsh Valley in La Barge Canyon". One month later, he's outa there. At last, he comes back and confines his "search to La Barge Canyon."

They search, they have no clue and they find nothing. Dick hears the Chuning story and sends his wet-behind-the-ears son to see if John will take him on as a partner. Chuning tells Brownie nothing and turns down his, more than kind, offer.

Once Chuning turns down the Holmes partnership, Brownie decides he will make a "systematic search." With the priceless information divulged at the Waltz deathbed, Brownie starts "out at Superstition Mountain, the main mountain of the range, and gradually working north and east, thoroughly examining every canyon as I went." That was some amount of searching for someone who had the goods from a dying "friend". :roll:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When he learned of the passing of Jacob Wolz, and of the many stories connected with the old German, Chuning realized he had passed up one of the major opportunities of his career as a mining man. He procured an outfit and went to Tortilla Springs, where he set up a permanent camp."

"Chuning confined his search to the high hills in the vincity of Tortilla Springs; he built ladders to climb up and down sheer cliffs; and some of these ladders are still there."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't believe there is an ounce of truth in either of those statements.
My source for that belief is, The Bark Notes, and rope ladders found by my uncle and Ernie Provence, nowhere near Tortilla Spring. My guess is that Tracy Hawkins might have some knowledge of those ladders.
I don't know what other evidence you folks would need to show that the Holmes had nothing......well, other than a box of stolen gold ore, to go on, but I should cut this short. :lol:

I know this is hellaishly (just made that word up) long, but the Holmes' story is such a target-rich environment. Where am I going wrong here?

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by TGH »

Sam

Your "triangle is off a tad. That ground was worked over by Crazy Jake for years. Who knows, maybe he missed it. Enjoy the climb up Squaw.........

Roger

What makes you think the Deering Mine and Waltzs are one in the same?
They most probably are two different kettle of fish.....imho.

Joe

You are spot on in your Holmes remarks. Nonetheless, SOME of the info in those notes is pretty much on the money.

As always most of the above is my opinion and I may be wrong...but I doubt it.

P
Joe Ribaudo
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Original?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Much of what Brownie wrote was "common talk" in those days. It's fairly obvious he took the writings of some of the more flowery authors and put his own embellishments on them. That assumes he wrote them at all.

It's all opinion. That's what makes it so much fun.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Brownie and Chuning

Post by novice »

I know many Dutch Hunters are only interested in clues to where a mine might exist and have little interest in timelines, etc. but at least I found this interesting.

Regarding the Brownie and John Chuning story.

According to the Social Security Death Index, George Holmes [Brownie] was born April 11, 1892 and died in April 1980 in Maricopa County, Arizona.

According to the Death Certificate (Arizona Birth and Death Records)of John Chuning, he died November 11, 1910 in Pinal County, Tortilla Flat and is buried in the Mesa Cemetery.

To me, this doesn't seem to fit with Brownie's story. Brownie gives Chuning's death as 1922 which would be a much better fit.

I would doubt that Brownie ever laid eyes on Chuning let alone had an intimate conversation with him. I guess you could come up with a scenario in which it would be possible if you worked at it?

Garry
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Post by zentull »

With my ears ringing from the Rob Zombie concert the night before I tried Rogers wild goose chase first. Being 100 years or so on a cold trail isn't a lot of fun, but the weather was initially great. Would ne nicer if Chunnings clues or Barks notes fit the scenario better. Maybe its familiarity that makes Bluff Springs fit well. I was so tempted to get sidetracked and spend more time with such nice weather. After coming down into Needle canyon I headed for Charley boy and La Barge to put both into perspective. After wasting time trying to envision where the burro might have been, I decided to follow Joes hunch and worked out a patterned route from 1/4 to 3/4 up the mountain side allowing 20 yards on each side for each trip. Hey, it sounded like a good idea at the time.

Somewhere along the way in life I got old. What seemed like a good idea was an asskicker. I had a print out sheet that I hi lited with each pass, noting game trails or real and/or imagined anomalies. I covered very little ground as could be imagined, but I do know where the trail will not be. To say the least I have a fresh view of the areas we were talking about. By the time I was leaving I had Jelly legs and an aching back. Of course I blew out my upper radiator hose on the way out because the thermostat was bad. I would like to thank all the people that did not stop as I was pushing the Bronco. At least the nights were nice and cool. This is not in my opinion a recommended hike. I did have the spiritual company of Joe, Roger, Peter and Joe Deering. I hope your ears were burning. Middle of nowhere and I got voices in my head.
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Post by TGH »

>>Middle of nowhere and I got voices in my head.<<

Yep, sometimes that happens out there.

If you were listening to my voice it would have whispered "higher up and further away..."
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