The Legend

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ThomasG
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The Legend

Post by ThomasG »

The question is: what was the genesis of the legend? From were was it birthed?

Did it come from Julia? Or Julia and Rhinehart? Did Bicknell concoct the legend? Or did Bicknell simply gather information and publish lt? What about the Holmes account? Or did today's legend spring from Bark? Ely? Barry Storm? Mitchel? Or?

Thomas
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Potbelly Jim
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Re: The Legend

Post by Potbelly Jim »

Hi Thomas,

I would have to say that Waltz himself birthed the legend. He told something to Julia and/or Rhiney that was enough for them to start a search. What they were actually looking for, I don't know. Do we take them at their word, to Bark and others, that they were searching for a mine? Up to each person to decide, I guess.

What Holmes' actual involvement was, I don't think anyone can say. What we do know, is that Dick Holmes believed in whatever his information was, wherever it came from. At least he believed in it enough to also start a search that lasted his entire life, and then down through Brownie and his various partners. What were they actually looking for? We are told that it was a mine.

Whether or not Waltz found a mine, a cache, one or more ore piles that had been dumped on the ground like "Silverlock and Malm", or just had some left over ore from his earlier mining efforts, I don't think anyone can say. About the best thing that could happen is for someone to match some documented, found ore with the matchbox. And even that would only prove that the story, as we have it in its various forms, is only "likely" true. We can only hope, if a source for the ore is ever found, that additional evidence is found that somehow links the location to Waltz, or perhaps validates one of the stories.

My own opinion is that most of the clues and stories about the LDM are either made-up to confuse and mislead, or taken from other treasure tales to fill in some serious gaps. If there is a mine, or cache with additional ore yet to be found, what precious little Waltz told Julia, Rhiney, and maybe Holmes, is all we have to go on...and how do we know that any of that actual information has ever been disclosed beyond those three people? We're guessing, or taking a leap of faith. My gut feeling is that we have very little of the actual information that Waltz disclosed, which was probably precious little to begin with. So here we are.

Take care, Jim
Jim R.
don
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Re: The Legend

Post by don »

I think theres little doubt who was the most influential person as regards creating interest in the LDM-Barry Storm,even though his books were badly written and full of very questionable "facts". And rumour has it of course that some of those "facts" he created himself ...i.e the Oro carvings and the decoding of petroglyphs.After that the story kind of took on a life of its own ..indeed theres nothing quite like a good old adventure/mystery tale to fire the imagination of youngsters in particular .And of course youngsters become adults ,and some as in my case become old men-but still the story sticks in the mind. In my opinion Storm created a kind of "grab bag" into which he incorporated campfire tales,rumour and innuendo ,a few verifiable facts ....and then the bandwagon started rolling as its apt to do. Of course these rumours existed earlier,but how many believed them during Waltz's lifetime? very few I suspect,and they probabley consisted of folk who connected "this" with "that" and so on....it seems nothing much changes...it comes down to faith,and if one has faith in the story then its quite easy to find corroborating "evidence" even if that evidence is tenuous in the extreme,or consists of what so and so reportedly said to someone else 130 years ago ....i suspect ive wandered a little here.... without Storm i suspect the LDM would have died together with Waltz,so maybe you COULD say storm ,in a way gave birth to the tale.
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ThomasG
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Re: The Legend

Post by ThomasG »

Don,

I agree about Barry Storm. I see Barry as the bridge between the 1930s flurry of interest, and 1950s. While several people made permanent camps in the Sups. in the '30s and there was considerable interest in the LDM, none of them really spread the interest past the 1930s and/or outside a small circle. Barry was the exception.

But, I don't think his books and reputation could have carried the legend very far beyond the the late '40s and early '-50s (the period of the post war boom).

I do think that the lynchpin to today's interest comes from Ely's book. Why? Barry's books were printed in small numbers. Ely's book was published and distributed by a major New York publisher and it went through multiple printings in the States, and at least two in England. One of those printings was a library biding/printing. That is how I first became acquainted with the legend. It was likely disseminated across the country and read by teenage boys year after year after year ....

I think it spawned a whole new generation of Dutch Hunters, revitalizing old stories, and old locals. Giving us the legend and interest we have today. (which by the way I think may now be waining).

What most do not realize, or at least appreciate, is that Ely's book/manuscript was not an easy sell. Publisher and publisher turned it down. When Willey at WIlliam Morrow and Co. accepted it, it was essentially with the agreement that Willey would re-write Sim's manuscript. Keep in mind that Willey wrote the book! I have no proof that Willey did it for the following, but I think it quite likely. And here is where Barry's influence stretches far beyond his books.

Thunder God's Gold was made into a major motion picture, Lust for Gold. It stared Glen Ford as Waltz and and Ida Lupino Julia Thomas, with Gig Prince as Barry Storm. It was a major motion picture with pretty good star power. And it spread the story/legend far beyond those that had read Berry's books. And it made money -- I don't know how much, but apparently enough to be at least a good "A-" or "B+" movie.

When you read the rejection letters that the Ely family got from publisher after publisher, it makes me wonder why Willey would have stuck his neck out for Ely's manuscript/book? My guess is that Willey saw something others did not see -- that the story itself was bankable, not Ely's manuscript. And it is most likely that what fostered that idea was the response to Lust for Gold. None of which would have happened without Barry and his books.

But, it was ELy's book that reached the widest audience. In those days once a movie was finished with its theater run it was done. Whereas Ely's book stayed around year after year.

Take aways Barry, his books, the movie Lust for Gold and Ely's book and you don't have much left.

T
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Re: The Legend

Post by holyground »

The so-called legend was birthed, then propagated, with the first newspaper article that extolled great riches hidden in the mountains, then propagated with each new book about the same, being published year after year. Nowadays, the internet moves all of that old legend rubbish at light speed. I would say, conservatively guessing, that not even 5% of the stuff printed is true. The thing is, talking about it and blowing hot air as to what I don't know anything about really, is perhaps the most fun I can have with my clothes on. At my age, I'm certainly not having much fun with them off.
If you really think about it, Ole Jake didn't tell us anything. I think my biggest question is this:
Why would a guy that owned the richest gold lode in Arizona, go to Florence and have a dry washer built?
Did Jake actually ship gold to his sister, or is that just more rubbish?
Did jake actually draw that squiggly lines, joke of a map, or did the vultures that were waiting for him to die draw it?
You know, a real treasure map has a well defined starting place, A well defined ending place, and plenty of clues in between. When my son was 6 years old, he drew better maps. Jake left nobody nuthin! He did put them into the fake treasure map bidness, however. For that, I'm sure they were forever indebted. Jake told nobody nuthin. Jake was too smart for all of them. Besides, he knew if he did tell them where the mine was, they would just go off half cocked and get their fool selves killed by the Apach. There is much, much, MUCH more to the story. There are things that just might be so shocking that your hair will catch fire, simply from the shock.
I'm writting a book this very moment. I've been at it for three years and I am finally finished. It is called, Clues to Finding The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine. It is 300 pages, but there is nothing in it. All blank. I know it will be a hot seller because I have based it solely on the pure truth of the LDM Story...
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