Cerro Negra

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cuzzinjack
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Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

There is a central theme of “Negra” on many of the most popular lost mine maps that are circulating, including the Hoddenplye, Peralta-Fish, Mina Del Oro, and Walter Perrine (John Combs) maps. It is generally understood that the Negra is basalt.

In the Molly Marie caldera, the tallest hill in the basalt is likely the location of a high-Au VMS deposit as described in the previous thread and others. Only 12 of these deposits have been found in the world. For description purposes, let’s call this hill “Cerro Negra”. Abundant gossan breccias are found halfway up the western and northern sides of the hill, and the top and eastern side are covered by a thin veneer of white tuff, likely covering much more gossan breccia. Given the high porosity of the gossan breccias, gold, and the prior brine and abundant salt in the area, Cerro Negra would be an excellent candidate for a supergene gold deposit.

The rest of this post is about my findings on and around Cerro Negra. Here is a link to a photo of it, looking in a south-easterly direction:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/cerronegra.JPG

There is one single shaft that is found in the basalt in the Molly Marie caldera. It is tucked in tight on the north side of Cerro Negra. Although small, the shaft has a concrete collar; this is unusual. It is less than 20 feet to muck, and the original shaft depth is unknown. A door constructed of galvanized steel has fallen inside. There is no dump. Was the dump pushed down the shaft? There is not a strong geologic structure in the vicinity, and it appears that the miners had one goal…. to get beneath the basalt and into the hill. This shaft is not shown on a 7.5 minute USGS map, which is really odd. I'm guessing the shaft was sunk in the 60's. Below is a link to a photo of the collar.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegr ... collar.JPG

Approximately 150 feet away to the south, up on the side of Cerro Negra, is a bare patch devoid of grass. The area is a tan color, and is surrounded by basalt. The tan blends in somewhat with the tuff that has tumbled from above, but it does not belong there. This is what the bare area looks like:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/barepatch.JPG

After more inspection, the tan rock appears to be not rock, but ADOBE. Yes, as outrageous as this sounds, it is what it is. The tan clay is sintered with tuff and basalt fragments and let me repeat: it does not belong there. Most, if not all of the clay in the caldera is a deep red color. This apparent Adobe is soft and can be dug fairly easy with a rock pick, but at the same time is erosion resistant. Casa Grande National monument comes to mind. A closeup photo of the suspected Adobe is here:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/adobe.JPG

The Ortiz map has intrigued me for years; it appears to be a drainage tunnel for many mines, but have never been able to place its location because the combination of geology and elevation necessary to make the tunneling worthwhile has not been found. This is the Ortiz map:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/Oritz-Map.jpg

Armed with a new theory that Cerro Negro may be the circle shown on the map, I walked down the ridge to the north of Cerro Negro about 400 yards to investigate if there was evidence of a portal there. There is a significant elevation difference even between the portal location and the basalt located to the south of Cerro Negro (a later brunton survey indicated about 50 feet). This was a few weeks ago and it was hot, over 90. When I got to the end of the ridge and in the gulch headed west, there was a cloud of bees, and they were flying in and out of the ground where the portal was suspected to be. I avoid bees like the plague, and decided to come back another day. Last weekend I returned, it was cooler, and the amount of bees had subsided greatly. I was able to get close enough to take a photo of the hole they were flying in and out of. The incoming bees were not carrying pollen, so knew that they were only seeking water. Here is a photo of the bee hole and the green grass from seeping water:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/beehole.JPG

There is substantial rubble around and above the beehole, and it is loose without many fines. Does the water wash the fines away? Here is a photo of the rubble:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/rubble.JPG

Do these items have merit? Are they old bones that someone that is reading this have already dug?
Here are all of the items placed on a google earth photo:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegr ... otated.JPG

One more thing…….. after the photo above was annotated, and was about to shut it down for the night, I was browsing through some electronic copies of maps, and ran across one by Walter Perrine called Mapa de Indios, dated 1944; the saddle indicated on this map, and the waterfalls, were interesting because of the dry waterfalls and prominent saddle at Cerro Negra. Who was this guy and what was his story? Many reading this know the story, but I did not. What an amazing tale, the cave filled with gold bars, and there are videos of him telling it! I found this Perrine map by John Combs, and was amazed at the similarity to the annotated google earth photo above:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/perrinemap.JPG

I hope all of this information starts a lively conversation, but who knows?
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jack,

Great pictures! The bee hole reminds me of the spring I found in the saddle between Boulder and Little Boulder Canyons. It was pretty much impossible to reach because of the overgrowth.......and the bees.

Never have put much faith in the Perrine story, but who knows. As I recall, his location was at the base of Weaver's Needle. That might fit with Dale Howard's story. Easy to get disorientated after Dale was away for so many years. Could very well have been closer to the Needle than where he was searching on the south side of Black Top. Funny thing is, that there is an X right in that area of the Stone Maps.

Very nice presentation. Hope you get more comments.

Take care,

Joe
cuzzinjack
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Joe,

If you were to think back on all of the research you have done, what story or piece of evidence has made the biggest impression on you?

Sincerely,

cuzzinjack
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

cuzzinjack wrote:Hello Joe,

If you were to think back on all of the research you have done, what story or piece of evidence has made the biggest impression on you?

Sincerely,

cuzzinjack

Jack,

Good question. I would have to say, the Harry LaFrance Cave of Gold Bars story, which I believe to this day was true. I had close family and friends who were initially involved in that search. They talked to Harry and held the gold bar in their hands.

Next in line, would be the Stone Maps, which I am now firmly convinced was a hoax, but a very, very good one. Whoever originally laid it out knew the Superstitions and the legends very well. I always suspected that it could be a hoax, and so warned everyone who ever partnered up with me. Like many treasure maps, it's a fine job of reverse engineering. Trails, washes, canyons and old claims are all on the maps. They could only be created by someone who had spent years in the range or even lived there.

The story of Jacob Waltz and his lost mine was first introduced to me by my Uncle Chuck Ribaudo. I was around 12-years of age at the time. Many years ago, I concluded that the mine had been found and worked out. For that reason, I stuck with searching for the cave of gold bars. Even so, I never lost interest in the LDM and researched it throughout the years.

What about you?

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Joe,

I'm glad you picked that story as it dovetails well with mine. My favorite is not a story, but is the cart ruts. They tell a story of their own; more than a century, or more likely, a century and-a-half of broken muck was hauled over the same spot. It is hard to believe that the Peraltas made such a huge mistake by leaving them behind. The mercury tests were further proof that the main processing area was in First Water Canyon. I believe the cave of gold bars would have originated here and also the bars found by First Water Road. I was told about them second, and then later, first-hand, and they were reported to have the mark of the King's fifth on them. This would place their age before 1723 if I remember right. I don't know the exact location where they were found, but from what i understood it was on or near the aforementioned Cerro Negra. I have never paid the story that much attention until i read it in Dr. Glover's latest book, along with the cave of gold story and others.

Deep enough for now,

cuzzinjack
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jack,

As I recall, the ruts are in the eastern part of the range. The caves of gold bars are in the western end.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Joe,

I don’t know about the ruts you are referring to on the East Side, but below is a link to the ruts I’m talking about on the West Side and on the now-gated road to the First Water Ranch awning. This is not in the wilderness:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2posting/ruts1.JPG

This photo is of the ruts after they were cleaned and then rinsed by the rain. There are a few more photos on the thread “Cart Ruts”. These photos were posted and did not receive comment. People have been riding horses, driving jeeps and trucks, and walking over them for over a hundred years, and they are unfazed due to the hardness of the rock. Many pairs were marked with flagging tape and measured, and the rut pairs are 7 feet apart, the distance between the wheels of a Mexican ox cart.

These ruts do not tell the romantic tale of a lone miner/prospector taking infrequent trips into the mountains to mine enough gold for subsistence and to ship to his beloved sister. These ruts tell the tale of a CORPORATION. There is nothing romantic about silicosis, slavery, mercury poisoning, cave-ins, constant depredation, endless death due to disease, and finally, wholesale slaughter.

Why were the Peralta’s stockpiling their gold? Was it for political reasons? If they shipped all they produced would they have had their operations stolen by Santa Anna? Were they going to finance a revolution against Santa Anna? We may never know, but it makes sense that the Peralta’s would have more than one repository. So far there are as many as 3 possible storage sites at my count:

1) Le France Cave
2) Perrine Cave
3) The 50 carts stored in a cave on the Peralta/Fish map. (this is estimated to be 400,000 ounces)

I will leave the search for the bars to others. My goal is to prove the location of the mines that go with the ruts.

Drive on over and I’ll give you a tour.

cuzzinjack
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jack,

Those "ruts" look like natural formations to me. Here is where you will see what they should look like:

http://www.eg.bucknell.edu/~hyde/jackso ... nTrip.html

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Joe,

Your analysis is well taken, and am glad you took the time to research, but the comparison of Oregon Trail ruts to these is not a reasonable assumption.

The wagons and carts on the Oregon trail were going one-way; they were never coming back. The wagon trails made by settlers were not maintained, and the ruts were just worn deeper and deeper. The cart ruts in question were on a well-engineered and maintained camino, not a rutted trail, as will be shown.

These cart ruts were made by miners, the best miners of their time, and good miners know that you must take care of your equipment or you will fail. The act of rolling precious carts across very abrasive, rutted rock was not in their playbook, so why are the ruts there?

From the pass that is above the First Water Road overflow parking lot to the bottom of First Water Canyon, a narrow corridor about 20 feet wide must be followed by a camino so that it can be negotiated by loaded carts; this is an approximate -10% grade. There is no other way down at this grade, and the ruts are on this corridor.

The more recent road to the bottom of the canyon appears to have been developed with a small dozer and it removed the thin layer of soil and rocks in the way, and used the “shortest distance between two points is a straight line” approach. The removal of the rocks allowed for erosion to take its toll, and the current road is bare rock. The erosion caused by the dozer is suspected to have revealed the cart ruts. The latter-day Peraltas may have not even known that they were even there.

Below is a link to the dozed road above the ruts; it is at a slope of 20 to 25% or greater:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/roadout.jpg

The location of the ruts appears to be an intersection. The empty carts could “shortcut” and negotiate a route parallel to the dozed road when travelling uphill below the cart ruts, but they had to veer left and merge onto the same road taken by the loaded carts because of the steep grade straight ahead.

It appears that this intersection was a road maintenance problem, at least when the ruts were formed. Storm water converges here also, and the ruts would have had to be continually filled in and covered over. The cart wheels found a different path to bare rock each time the area was covered, causing the multiple-rut pattern.

But is there other evidence of the road? In the aforementioned corridor, above the ruts, the remains of a retaining wall can be found. It is evident that the camino was elevated and constructed of select materials, to prepare a smooth. cart wheel-friendly surface. Here are links to a couple of photos of the remains of the wall:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/retainwall.JPG

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegr ... nwall2.JPG

The discovery of these ruts, the mercury, and other items are not “game over” by any means, but the start of the second half of the game. It would be a great honor to work with you and other serious researchers to finish putting together this story.

Sincerely,

cuzzinjack
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jack,

Image

My problem with the ruts is not from any position of knowledge, but was based on the multiple directions and length of the ruts. That, despite your explanation above, just seemed out of place. My mind does not work all that well these days, so others may see no problems with the directions and length.

In any case, it's an interesting find. Hope your theory proves out.

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Joe,

My guess is that these ruts were made over a period of approximately 150 years. There were probably dozens of different people directly in charge of haulage operations during that time, and between them they had many different methods to negotiate the single steep hill they had to contend with. Some bosses may have used 1, 2, or even 4 oxen per cart, some may have used the shorter, steeper shortcut only, and others may have used the less-steep route either solely or in combination with the steeper shortcut. Regardless of the method or route, the road had to had to cross over the same place where the ruts are found, and the ruts had to converge at the same spot.
After I’d discovered the ruts, they were treated with a high degree of skepticism until the entire route was walked and studied, the retaining wall was found, and ruts were found aligned with the same path of the modern day road near the bottom of the hill. In this photo, inside the circled area, it can actually be seen where the steel rims of carts cut the rock.

Image

After the mercury sampling was done in First Water Canyon, even the slightest doubt about the ruts was erased. Finding mercury levels in the soil of First Water canyon soil as high as that found in the soil at the Potosi District in Bolivia is damning evidence that there was a major ore processing operation there.

I believe the last 50 or so years of the Peralta operations involved mining under the basalt in the Cerro Negra area, and all ore was processed in First Water Canyon. Every inch of the less than one mile long haul road between these 2 places could have been closely guarded.

In the tight area that includes Cerro Negra, the processing site and dam, and Hackberry Spring, the Peralta’s had a secure operation with water and many very defensible positions.

As erosion takes place, what appears to be once-hidden veins are appearing again around Cerro Negra. This is a photo of a piece of quartz that has appeared in the basalt. This is from the “boiling zone” where bladed calcite was formed. The calcite was engulfed by silica gel, and later, acid water dissolved the calcite. This type of rock is directly linked to gold deposition (I wish there was some on this rock).

Image

It can’t all be about gold and lost mines……… here is a photo of some sheep in First Water Canyon. What a ram!

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/ram2.JPG

cuzzinjack
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jack,

Do you have an explanation on how this angled track was formed?

Image

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Joe,

The photo below was taken from a different angle, and if you zoom in on the feature in question, it can be seen that it is a ledge rather than a track or rut. If you have any different ideas about how these "grooves" could have been formed in the rock other than by cart wheels, please share.

In the foreground of this photo the 2 grooves are filled with very hard packed material that doesn't appear to have been able to occur naturally. I began to dig them out with a rock hammer, and figured it would be best left to others that are skilled at such tasks.

Image


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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Some more info about Cerro Negra, the Black Hill…….. the great bulge in the basalt! After a long hot summer, and intermittent outings, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that this hill was definitely the centerpiece of the Peralta mining operations. Here is another view of Cerro Negro looking east:

Image

When Cerro Negra was viewed from this angle, something that had seemed so complicated was suddenly simplified. The maps have been trying to tell some of us the answer all this time:

• The Hoddenplye map. This shows the position of Cerro Negra in all its glory, naming it “Cerro de Negro”. The “hoyo”, “ojo de aguila” or window rock that overlooks the north side of the western Superstitions is unmistakably shown and labeled here.
• John Bartlett map. This shows the “ojo de aguila”, the cliffs of Hackberry Spring, the large window rock above Hackberry Spring, and the speckled hill of Cerro Negra. The speckles are indicating the colorful gossan breccias on Cerro Negra.
• Johnson Walker map. This is showing the thicket of large trees at Hackberry Spring, the very high cliffs and the deep tank (spring) between the forks of First Water canyon, and the gulches climbing out of First Water canyon.
• La Mina de la Sombrero map. This is clearly showing the cliffs with the large black markings (waterfalls) at Hackberry Spring and the “hoyo” that overlooks the area that is actually formed by a rock balanced against the solid rock of the mountain.
• Manual Alejandro Peralta map. Now we’re getting to the good stuff. The network of tunnels shown here actually has Cerro Negra shown in solid black. The tunnels to the south are under basalt, and the outlier tunnel to the east is another ridge of buckled basalt located alongside the volcanic neck. Cerro Negra was mined early on.
• Manual Peralta map. The centerpiece of this map is “Mesa Negro” with mines located all around it. Enough said.
• Minas del Oro Map. This map screams for you to look for the bulge in the basalt and Cerro Negra. As previously written, the river bed shown is First Water and north is at the top of the page. The Picacho is “Coyote”, the pinnacle near Government Well. The arrastras shown are where very high mercury was found in the soil equivalent to that of the soil at Potosi, Bolivia.
• The Ortiz map. The map is oriented with north being up. The speckled area with the round circle is Cerro Negra. The numerous tunnels to the east are under the ridge of basalt next to the neck of the volcano’s neck. The portal draining water is at the bottom of a rock gulch to the north.
• Polka Map #2. This is showing the position of the mine in relation to the pinnacle near Government Well, and is a relatively accurate distance (2 miles). The black hill is clearly seen in the middle.
• Polka Map #2. This shows the exact position of the mines in relation to the “hoyo” or tiny window rock that overlooks the whole valley.
• Mapa de Indios map (Walter Perrine). This map is looking east, shows the mines and the remarkable saddle that is on the east side of Cerro Negra. Pottery is found where the camp is shown and the spring flows intermittently. El Coyote is the pinnacle by Government well and the arrastra would be at Government Well also. The El Sombrero does not belong and appears to be added by others.
• John Combs map (Walter Perrine). Perfect depiction of the north side of Cerro Negra and the saddle labeled on the east side of the hill.

There are others, but that’s quite enough. The only map to be found of no use is the Ruth map.

Most or all of the maps mentioned should be on this website; if not, can post them. High quality copies of them were downloaded over 12 years ago, and they were reproduced by Tom Kollenborn. Great thanks to Tom for making these maps available:

Image

The suspected adobe on the side of Cerro Negra was dug into this summer, and it is indeed adobe; but what is it covering, a shaft or a portal? Considering the steep hillside it is on, probably a portal.

The Chiricahua Apache Hoop that was posted here was found near Cerro Negra, and I’ve seen what appeared to be Chiricahua twice in the area near this hill. Both times there was a man and woman; both men were tall, one being about 6’2”, and the other about 6’-3”or 4. They each had very long black hair and were athletic looking. The first actually looked like a photo of Naiche, a famous Chiricahua.

My estimate is that there is over 20 million tons of zinc, copper, silver, and gold ore under this hill, and much more under the basalt and basalt ridges nearby. The Spaniards and Mexicans were mining the enriched supergene ore here, and they barely scratched the surface. Since there is so much limestone in the form of cobbles and gravels under the basalt, it is felt that this is a similar situation as in Leadville, Colorado. The ore closest to the magma stock there was extremely rich in gold; and the mine was called the Little Jonny Mine, and at that time was the richest gold mine in the world.

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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Let’s not forget the most important map of all that shows the location of Cerro Negra, the Peralta Stone map. The one symbol on this map that was most perplexing until now, was the “D” shaped symbol that surrounds the 2 parallel lines. It is known now that this symbol is the profile of the Cerro Negra that is seen when standing on either of the 2 ridges shown. Below is an updated photo overlay called “Triangles” that was previously posted. It is known now that the hole in the map to the far right is a deep tank in solid rock in First Water canyon. The close match of the stone map and the Google earth photo is chilling. It is a strange feeling when you are out there and know you are standing where Peralta’s have stood before.

Image

http://mollymarieprospect.com/CerroNegra/triangles2.jpg

below is photo Hackberry Spring and grove of large trees that was posted before that is shown on several of the aforementioned maps:

Image

This is the hole that overlooks the entire valley on the north side of the Superstitions early in the morning. It is not visible later in the day. (posted before)

Image

This is the horse’s head that was posted before (this is the “3” on the horse on the horse stone):

Image

The symbols representing the striking natural landmarks shown above were placed on the Stone Map with uncanny, surveyed accuracy, and the location of Cerro Negra was intended as the ultimate destination on the map by the designer. There are many out there that do not want the mystery of the Peralta mines to be solved, but enough information has been presented that makes it very difficult for anyone to say otherwise. Most importantly, the geology backs it up.

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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

It was never my intention to get involved with a search for lost mines……….. I just kind of fell into it. All I originally wanted to do was to stake a mining claim just to say I did. The evidence to support the existence and location of the Peralta mines kept building, and somewhere along the way it was decided to take this to the end no matter what, even if the entire effort resulted in an embarrassing dead end. Enough pieces of the puzzle have now been put together to finally say the search has been a success.

Below is a photo taken from the “hole through the mountain” shown above, but looking south. In the middle of the valley Cerro Negra can be seen, and in the distance can be seen the general location of the Massacre Grounds and the Valley of Bones. How many people died within this vista is unknown, but between the Apache slaughter(s) and the deaths in the mines, there were many hundreds. A Peralta had to have stood on this exact spot from where the photo was taken to triangulate the positions to make the stone map. Who finally made/copied the map is unknown, but a Peralta engineer designed it.

To repeat, Cerro Negra is a high-sulphidation VMS deposit, a rare bird, formed on the edge of a sea, or in this case, a brine lake. The formation of sulphides below created a huge bulge in the basalt. There are indications of 3 more of these to the north, their locations betrayed by alteration and abundant gossan breccia.

The Peralta’s had a “tight ship” here. The ore processing plant was less than a mile away, and the trail between could be heavily guarded, every step of the way.

Image

Someone very awesome passed this on to me when my search was in its infancy, and he asked me if I had found anything like that written below. I hadn’t then, but I can say so now. This is from the Phoenix Herald and Republican in 1893, and was posted here several years ago:
“Gold is where you find it, whether it be in mountains which stand 10,000 to 14,000 feet above the sea or in the foothills of Arizona at an altitude of only that many hundred feet. The Indian legends which gave Superstition its name, and which are contradictory and unreliable, need have no importance in this writing. It is important however, that unwritten history points to the fact that there was mining for gold done in the Superstitions a hundred years ago and more.

Over on the north side of this wonderful mountain so peculiar in shape, standing like the ruins of some great walled city with its tall spires and huge monuments, there has been discovered an ancient mining camp. Whether this mining was done by the Indians and Mexicans of the last century, or whether the operations date back to the years when de Vaca and Black Stephen started from the coast of Florida to find the gold fields toward the setting sun, may never be known. It is certain, however, that there are shafts and tunnels and drifts and stopes and the clearly defined walls of a great mine. On the dumps are found tons and tons or rock which without a doubt came out of these workings.

These evidences of early mining led a party of prospectors some five years ago to follow down the trail of the hills till they found gold much richer than was found by the Indians or Spaniards, or whoever they may have been. These prospectors who risked their lives in the face of the dangerous Apaches who lurked about the hills of some five years ago, were not as careful gold hunters as those of later years. They had but little time to look for gold, so sharp needs to be their watchfulness for the coming Apache.”
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by cuzzinjack »

Several references are made to a “speckled” hill or a speckled area on the maps out there. My offering is it is because of this rock here:

Image

This is vuggy silica with clasts of gossan from sulphide ore and this outcrops in many places in the Molly Marie caldera including Cerro Negra. The vuggy silica is a basalt/gossan breccia that has been completely replaced by silica. The VMS deposits in the Molly Marie caldera (at least 4), have a core of sulphide ore, and are surrounded by wide zones of this vuggy silica. This district has many of the same features as the mighty Yanacocha, Greens Creek, and Little Jonny(Ibex) deposits. The gray vuggy silica appears to be the same as the gray sand that is found in First Water canyon where the high mercury readings are found.

This is a photo of sawn gossan breccia(very silicified) and vuggy silica that are found adjacent to one another on Cerro Negra:

Image

All of this will eventually “shake out”, and it is of course, extremely intriguing to see what this district will yield in gold, silver, copper, lead, zinc, and lithium.

cuzzinjack
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Cerro Negra

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jack,

Very nice posts. It's obvious, even to a dummy like me, you have done your homework..

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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