Casa Caverna

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cuzzinjack
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Casa Caverna

Post by cuzzinjack »

This post is concerned with the Minas Del Oro Map as a follow-up to the mercury vapor survey described in the thread “Blood in the Water”. A photo of the original of this map is in Dr. Thomas Glover’s book, “The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz”.

Here is another link to a copy of the Minas Del Oro Map with a few annotations for the descriptions below:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... onoted.jpg

Assuming the ore processing was done where shown on the map, verified by mercury vapor testing, this place at First Water Ranch was used as an “anchor point” for further investigation.

There are 2 especially strange items on this map: the item labeled “Casa Caverna”, and the item labeled “Negra”. The Casa Caverna item is odd in that it looks like an “igloo”, and everyone knows that’s not going to happen. Traveling to the west down what should be the “Camino” on the map, there appears to be only one gulch that can be the “Arroyo Caverna”, and traveling up the arroyo there is only one very specific location that appears to be the Casa Caverna.

There are deposits of “Tufa” (not tuff) that are located in many places on the Molly Marie Prospect. They are created by slow seeps of cool or slightly warm spring water evaporating and leaving behind what we know as hard water deposits. Typically the tufa deposits occur in sheets or cascading sheets when on a hillside, but sometimes it occurs in mounds. There are 4 mounds that are known to occur in the area, and the Casa Caverna mound is one of them. The Casa Caverna mound is high enough above the drainage not to be eroded by flash floods, but over half of it is missing. There is a hole that has been dug in front of the vertical plane created by the front portion of the mound being broken off. Below are links to a couple of photos of it. It is theorized that the mound was hollowed out by miners to create a living space. From the photos it can be seen that it appears to have caved by the attitude and type of material in front of it.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... /tufa1.JPG
http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... /tufa4.JPG

There is evidence of mining slightly to the south as the Minas Del Oro map indicates. There is a large prospect pit and a deep trench that opens into the arroyo. This is what some of the rock looks like in the area; the breccia has clasts of what is called “vuggy silica”, where acid has destroyed the rock and left the silica behind:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... eccia3.JPG

Here is a google earth photo annotated to show the probable location of the items shown on the Minas Del Oro Map:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... averna.jpg

The “campos” area shown was swept up a little too good. The desert varnish was removed and the area is as flat and clean as a billiard table. Only by the most careful searching can Oya sherds be found. This is not the same as Indian pottery as I’ve said before on this site. The sherds are unglazed, very thin, and have a curvature of large pots approximately 2 feet in diameter.

The minas(mines) on the far left of the Minas Del Oro map correspond to the area labeled “protruding vein” on the casa caverna google map. It is amazing in my opinion that a protruding quartz vein can still exist in plain sight in the shadow of Superstition Mountain. It is saturated with drusy quartz(cannot be seen with the naked eye). John Wilburn in his booklet “Goldfield Mining District Geology and Ore Deposits” describes the drusy quartz as the last stage of quartz that brought in the gold in the veins in Goldfield. There could have easily been a tunnel below the protruding vein, and the vein resides in an area of heavily silicified breccia. There is a half-hearted prospect pit next to the vein. A photo of the vein is below:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... ngvein.JPG

The most intriguing item on this map in my opinion is the area called “Negra”. Immediately basalt comes to mind, but why is the item shown as folded? Basalt normally occurs as a flat deposit, and Wilburn describes the basalt as approximately 50 feet thick . The tallest hill on the Molly Marie prospect is approximately 150 tall and the outside of it is comprised of basalt. It has always been puzzling of how this could happen. There are outcrops of sulphide breccias on this hill, and it is guessed that brine boiled off below (this is near the center of a volcano), and the sulphides deposited and swelled beneath creating the strange bulge. And, the 500 feet of course sandstone and conglomerate that is beneath the basalt was destroyed by acid leaving only the silica behind; the area around the hill collapsed.

On the annotated Casa Caverna photo this hill is shown, but below is an oblique view so the bulge can be seen more clearly. In the entire region, another fold in the basalt like this is not known. The creator of this map seems to indicate that a good knowledge of geology is to be EXPECTED.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... abeled.jpg

In conclusion, it appears that at least 3 “spots on the ground” (borrowing the words of Dr. Thomas Glover) may be revealed by the Minas Del Oro map.

• The ore processing site
• Casa Caverna
• The fold in the basalt (a hill)

The big question is, where is the pinpoint location of a mine shaft? I’ve always felt strongly that the Spanish and Mexican miners were beneath this basalt in addition to the pits and other mines they had in the area, and have spent a bit of time on this basalt and around the spot marked “shaft?”. The basalt in this area has areas that have been altered to a soft red rock. This is caused from the acid vapor rising from the magma chamber below. The largest altered area in the basalt is next to the spot labeled “shaft?” labeled in both google photos. It is theorized that one of the reasons a shaft could have been sunk there was it was much easier to sink in the soft rock rather than silicified basalt, and the site is centrally located in the basalt.

The basalt in this area is laced with quartz veinlets in some areas, is heavily silicified in others, and some is acid altered, all of which indicate the activity below. The basalt trapped the fluids, allowing them to react and precipitate. The perfect environment concludes with cobbles and gravels of limestone in the formation below that would cause the minerals to precipitate even more readily. The rock in the “shaft?” location does not belong there. It is volcanic tuff that appears to be imported from elsewhere.
As further evidence, a surface mercury vapor survey was done on the Casa Caverna arroyo from First Water road to the proposed shaft location and from there to the Needle Overlook parking lot. The strongest readings were in the shaft area. It is guessed that they had to pump water from the shaft quite frequently and if they could process there without hauling, they would “make hay while the sun was shining”.

This post is more than long enough, and will stop it here. Please take a hike and check some of these things out; there is plenty of parking!

There are many more maps that point to this area and will keep posting about them, if this site doesn’t shut down. Please donate what you can to keep alive the best site out there concerning the Superstition Mountains.

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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by don »

Maps,Waybills,horses heads with left ear cocked,cryptic clues, houses in caves,north trending canyons,holes in rocks pointing to the mine,tricks in the trail, stone maps.....sigh .surely logic tells us that if these "signs"and clues meant anything ,then the mines(mines) would have been found a lifetime ago? Almost as long as its taken me to form the opinion that nothing of that kind exists,save in peoples imaginations....We all have Barry Storm to blame for this.As a writer he was woeful in a literary sense,and some of his writings (rantings) might lead some to question his sanity even,but he had the ability to make a mountain out of a molehill and create a n exciting mystery where no mystery really existed. I still retain an interest in the tale,but not from any belief in the legend ,but purely and solely because of the Adolph Ruth story and to a lesser extent that of James Cravey. Makes one wonder how Jacob Waltz could have ever been suspected of having access to the "richest mine in the world" after dying as a pauper,but then sometimes i guess we are all capable of not seeing that which is patently obvious...maybe its because we dont want to see.
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Re: Casa Caverna

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don wrote:Maps,Waybills,horses heads with left ear cocked,cryptic clues, houses in caves,north trending canyons,holes in rocks pointing to the mine,tricks in the trail, stone maps.....sigh .surely logic tells us that if these "signs"and clues meant anything ,then the mines(mines) would have been found a lifetime ago? Almost as long as its taken me to form the opinion that nothing of that kind exists,save in peoples imaginations....We all have Barry Storm to blame for this.As a writer he was woeful in a literary sense,and some of his writings (rantings) might lead some to question his sanity even,but he had the ability to make a mountain out of a molehill and create a n exciting mystery where no mystery really existed. I still retain an interest in the tale,but not from any belief in the legend ,but purely and solely because of the Adolph Ruth story and to a lesser extent that of James Cravey. Makes one wonder how Jacob Waltz could have ever been suspected of having access to the "richest mine in the world" after dying as a pauper,but then sometimes i guess we are all capable of not seeing that which is patently obvious...maybe its because we dont want to see.
regards
I am curious about your statement which I emphasized by putting in BOLD. Namely that Waltz died "a pauper". What leads you to this conclusion?

Waltz owned a homestead with an adobe home outright; some 48 pounds of gold remained in a candle box which ended up in possession of Dick Holmes. Just shortly before dying, Waltz had bailed out Julia with a sizable sum of gold that he sold to help her pay her debts. That may not sound like a fortune to you, but 48 pounds of gold would be worth nearly $700,000 today, hardly what we could consider being a "pauper". If that weight was for the ore and not pure gold, judging by the assay performed by Joe Porterie, @ $110,000 per ton, then 48 pounds of that ore would be worth some $2640 in 1891 dollars or $20.67 per ounce, today would be worth $168.975 (today's price of $1323 per oz, 11/27/2015). While many people today would not regard over $160,000 as a fortune, it is hardly what we would consider being a pauper either.

It may help to consider that in that time, there was no Social Security and no Welfare. If you did not save up money in your working years, you would starve to death in old age. It was not at all uncommon for gold prospectors to save up some part of the gold they mined for their old age. In fact one theory has it that the gold of Waltz was from many years of prospecting many different areas, not one mine. However he told Holmes that it came from one mine, the same one people have been hunting for so long.

I would like to understand your reasoning that Waltz died "a pauper" when he had a fairly respectable fortune remaining on his death, not counting the real estate. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Casa Caverna

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Hi Oroblanco...my reasoning? The "bailing out" of julia thomas is hearsay as far as i am aware ,unless im wrong and there are hard facts to support that theory....I dont include campfire tales etc in any definition of hard facts.The 48 pounds of gold ore Id say fits into the same category.....the gold matchbox again ,while it exists ,there is no proof it was made from gold previously in waltzs possession.and the gold from which it was made could have come from any number of places and originated from any number of people.
Like wise his "property portfolio" ...a shack in downtiown pheonix in those days was hardly a park lane mansion.Ive never come across any info regarding waltzs so called wealth that couldnt easily be refuted.similarly never seen any proof which shows he died a wealthy man. Ive never come across any evidence regarding this legend (im talking specifically about waltzs ownership of a fantastically rich gold mine or possession of sacks of gold ore etc) that can be even half verified if innuendo,rumour and third hand accounts are ruled out. never read any of the details regarding this tale that couldnt have been" lifted" from any one of a dozen similar legends and replanted here. Now of course im not saying he never at any time prospected successfully ,or even maybe high graded an amount from somewhere,but thats a whole different kettle of fish .
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Re: Casa Caverna

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Don wrote

Hi Oroblanco...my reasoning? The "bailing out" of julia thomas is hearsay as far as i am aware ,unless im wrong and there are hard facts to support that theory....I dont include campfire tales etc in any definition of hard facts.The 48 pounds of gold ore Id say fits into the same category.....the gold matchbox again ,while it exists ,there is no proof it was made from gold previously in waltzs possession.and the gold from which it was made could have come from any number of places and originated from any number of people.
Like wise his "property portfolio" ...a shack in downtiown pheonix in those days was hardly a park lane mansion.Ive never come across any info regarding waltzs so called wealth that couldnt easily be refuted.similarly never seen any proof which shows he died a wealthy man. Ive never come across any evidence regarding this legend (im talking specifically about waltzs ownership of a fantastically rich gold mine or possession of sacks of gold ore etc) that can be even half verified if innuendo,rumour and third hand accounts are ruled out. never read any of the details regarding this tale that couldnt have been" lifted" from any one of a dozen similar legends and replanted here. Now of course im not saying he never at any time prospected successfully ,or even maybe high graded an amount from somewhere,but thats a whole different kettle of fish .
regards
Well you are certainly welcome to your own opinion(s), and I must respectfully disagree. Julia Thomas was definitely in financial straits and "someone" bailed her out. The exact amount has been debated, but it was a sizable sum for 1890 Phoenix.

The gold ore found under Waltz's bed is not really a bone of contention. Dick Holmes was seen with that gold by Jim Bark. It is not disputed, the only dispute is whether he was really given it, or he stole it. Dick Holmes stated that it was given to him by Waltz in his last moments, Julia and Reiney claimed that Holmes stole it during Waltz's funeral. Actions speak louder than words too, and Holmes spent the rest of his life hunting for the mine of Jacob Waltz, as did his son Brownie and his partner Clay Worst to this day. Does it make sense to you that Dick Holmes would go searching for a mythical mine for so many years?

You are certainly free to dismiss witnesses as "campfire talk" but such witness statements are not viewed that way as a legal matter, in fact eyewitness statements can still get you convicted in court. Virtually ALL of history is really hearsay by the way, when you dig into it, and is almost always colored by the viewpoint of those who wrote it.

You are tacking the term "fantastically" rich on to describe Waltz's gold mine. No doubt it was very rich, from the only assay ever done it would rival some of the best ever found. It is not unique however, other known and well documented gold mines have produced ore equal or better than Joe Porterie's assay, including from within Arizona, the Crown King for one example. It is hardly right to be phrased as if the mine's gold values must be fantasy.

One other thing here but you are casting a very sarcastic description of Waltz's homestead upon it, which hardly seems deserved. Compared with other homesteads of the day, it was certainly as good as some others. Not everyone even owned any property at all. You SEEM to be trying to use your own logic about what it means to have knowledge of a very rich gold mine onto Waltz. Not everyone would try to get as rich as they could, in fact Waltz may have been like many people are, contented and satisfied. He had some gold put aside for the proverbial rainy day, and if needed could always go to his mine for more. Not all are so greedy as to risk life and limb to get as much wealth as they can. Also it is almost certainly a factor that during most of Waltz's lifetime, the Apaches were on the warpath, right up to 1886. That means only during the last five years of his life, was it relatively safe to venture into the wilds. This did not mean it was utterly safe either, for you can read in the newspapers of the day, outlaws and bad men were quite numerous and especially in the Phoenix area right up to Waltz's death and beyond.

For that matter, even Dick Holmes who claimed to have been a friend of Waltz, allegedly tried to follow him (without permission or knowledge) of Waltz to then jump his claim by filing on it. This account is found in the Holmes manuscript which of course is hotly debated today, but is also direct from Clay Worst whose word is not hotly debated. According to Holmes he was "not afraid" of Waltz and trailed him successfully, but then found he was staring down the barrel of Waltz's gun and decided that it was not such a great idea. The implications are that Holmes was not such a great pal of Waltz and casts doubts on the gift of the gold ore, but for Holmes to admit of the dastardly act of trying to trail Waltz to the mine in order to claim it for himself (basically admitting to being an attempted claimjumper) does not sound like your 'campfire tales'. People usually do not admit to dark deeds as a fiction.

So I have to respectfully disagree with your conclusions Don, from your statements it appears that hunting for lost mines is not going to be your thing. You would perhaps be more comfortable with known, documented mines, and some of these are certainly worth re-examining. The old 16 to 1 mine in California is an example of a mine thought by most everyone to be played out, proved to be hiding more fortunes in gold. Heck many of us are keeping an eye on an old mine or two, should they ever come up for sale (at a reasonable price of course) for we do not care whether the gold comes from a famous lost mine or an old and historical mine, even one that is virtually obscure may be hiding fortunes that the old-timers may have missed. I am among those that missed out on the chance to get legal rights to the famous old Silver King mine as an example, and we might point out that for some years, the Silver King was another "campfire tale" lost mine, with far less documentation than we have with the Lost Dutchman gold mine. Look it up for yourself, it was a story of a man named Johnson (if memory serves) that had found some black ore that proved rich in silver, Johnson vanished and four men decided to hunt for the outcropping and succeeded. Had they demanded the sorts of proof that you seek, they would never have bothered to look at all.

I do not expect to change your mind Don, and thank you for explaining your reasoning; however we disagree on conclusions. I am convinced that the lost Dutchman mine does exist, that the story in popular circulation is really a mix of different, unrelated lost mines so people are hunting a mine that can not exist as described. For example in the LDM, it is described as a huge funnel shaped pit with a tunnel below, and another description has it as a shaft with an opening no larger than a barrel, and not more than a dozen feet deep. Obviously these are describing two different mines! In fact there is reason to believe that the famous description has come from a different mine, the Big Rebel, which is one of the gold mines discovered by Waltz in his earlier years. In fact the LDM legend may be a mix of as many as nine different mines - including the Doc Thorne which was a placer not a lode, the Apache Jack ledge of black quartz, the rose quartz of Wagoner, the Black Maverick, the Peralta silver (later changed to gold) the 2 Soldiers and on it goes. Treasure writers and treasure hunters are responsible for this mixing of different unrelated stories that should not have been, perhaps it was done innocently in the belief that they must be describing the same lost mine. The fact that Waltz had a proven record as a successful prospector also lends credence to his having found the famous lost mine by the way. He knew how to find gold, certainly. I see no reason to doubt that Jacob Waltz had found a rich gold mine, which remains lost today.

Good luck and good hunting to you Don and anyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by don »

Thanks for giving your view on the issue,and while much of what you have written is true,there is also a lot, that because of the passage of time ,we have no way of knowing how much of it is true -half true ,or invented.


(quote)
Well you are certainly welcome to your own opinion(s), and I must respectfully disagree. Julia Thomas was definitely in financial straits and "someone" bailed her out. The exact amount has been debated, but it was a sizable sum for 1890 Phoenix.(unquote)

This is a prime example of what I mean....."someone" bailed julia thomas out,that may well be the case but its conjecture to assume it was Waltz..that "someone " might have been someone else...the bail out might not have occurred at all.

(QUOTE)
The gold ore found under Waltz's bed is not really a bone of contention. Dick Holmes was seen with that gold by Jim Bark. It is not disputed, the only dispute is whether he was really given it, or he stole it. Dick Holmes stated that it was given to him by Waltz in his last moments, Julia and Reiney claimed that Holmes stole it during Waltz's funeral. Actions speak louder than words too, and Holmes spent the rest of his life hunting for the mine of Jacob Waltz, as did his son Brownie and his partner Clay Worst to this day. Does it make sense to you that Dick Holmes would go searching for a mythical mine for so many years?(UNQUOTE)

Jim Bark supposedly saw holmes with gold supposedly either given to him by waltz or stolen by him from waltz...then julia and reiney come into the picture ..claims and counter claims....whos to say ,if we assume the gold in question WAS in holmes hands , that that gold wasnt stolen from somewhere else and that Waltz was being used as a convenient alibi.....conjecture of course,but no more conjectural than the waltz-holmes-bark story. As for why would holmes go searching for a mythical mine,ive given up trying to work out why some act as they do. Here in britain we have people 1500 years after the events (which historians tell us probabley never happened anyway )who are still searching for king arthurs cave.The loch ness monster hunters and so on and so forth.....maybe holmes and others convinced themselves that waltz had something in the mountains...it doesnt prove he did because they believed it to be so.
The brownie holmes manuscript is by all accounts not something to take too seriously,so its dangerous to use comments from it and have faith in them..in my opinion.
Well we do seem to agree on the fact that the popular description of the mine is a bogus one (if it exists) ...to me there is no evidence other than the anecdotal kind to suggest the ldm exists. all we have by way of evidence is a series of legends,parts which have corrobated in some fashion the main story fall away as the years pass...there was a time as you know when the lost doc thorne mine was considered as yet another piece of important supporting evidence -then it was discovered thornes adventures didnt relate to the superstitions ,the two soldiers mine is yet another -The old apache cheif who when almost at the point of divulging the mines location to sims ely-and conveniently died before ely could get there etc....people have added and subtracted stories for no other reason ,it seems,than to convince others of the authenticity of the LDM story. I even read on this foru m a few years back where people were trying to change the facts to suit the tale. not content with 1 peralta massacre it was contended that actually 3 peralta massacres had taken place at different times because otherwise the facts wouldnt quite match up with each other. I can remember when the Waltz "gold receipt" was taken as positive proof of waltzs gold....that seemed to die a death too . but i guess its a matter of faith ...you either believe or you dont........if we all agreed on everything itd be a dull world....kind regards
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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Don,

Hope all is well with you and our fellow Brits.

Most of the information you are talking about can be found in the Bark Notes. While it's possible that it's all fiction, that seems unlikely. He knew Waltz, Julia and Rhiney personally. The "facts" you are talking about came directly from Julia and Rhiney. I don't see how it can get any better than that. It's everyone's choice if they want to believe the Bark Notes, but if you choose not to, there is really no where to go from there, concerning the LDM.

There are a number of things about the LDM "facts" that are questionable, but it seems undeniable that something did take place along the lines of the story......as presented.

Glad to see you are still kicking the tires of this old, used truck. :D

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by don »

Hi Joe,
Glad to see you commenting again even if its only to an old cynic like me 8O ...Ive never read the bark notes ,only brief snippets of them ..not even sure if they have been published in their entirety..perhaps they have.But even then ,if my memory serves me correctly ,Im pretty sure from comments ive read here-somewhere here, that there were several versions of them.Presume from that that maybe ,at the very least ,some of those versions were bogus-but ive no way of knowing that I admit.
Not knowing Julia and Reiney personally :D I have no idea of how much weight can be put on their words.Maybe it was just a tale that took on a life of its own.Could be a simple enough case of a handful of nuggets seen in someones hands that over the years were magically transformed into pocket fulls,saddle bags full and from that into the story we have today.
Yes, this "old truck" to me anyway, has been reduced down to a mere rusty chassis -the tires rotted away long ago :D ......now if only someone could prove what actually happened to Adolph Ruth ,Id settle for that.
kind regards
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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Good morning Don,

What happened to Adolph Ruth may never be truthfully revealed. Anyone involved it that, possible, murder and cover-up is most likely dead now. I doubt they left any evidence or told anyone the details. I don't believe most of the story we have been told.

Without reading the Bark Notes, you are at a definite disadvantage for believing in the LDM. On the other hand, it could all be total fiction, except for the known existence of the major players.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by Oroblanco »

don wrote: Not knowing Julia and Reiney personally :D I have no idea of how much weight can be put on their words.Maybe it was just a tale that took on a life of its own.Could be a simple enough case of a handful of nuggets seen in someones hands that over the years were magically transformed into pocket fulls,saddle bags full and from that into the story we have today.
Well it was never "nuggets" which would mean a placer, it was always a hard rock mine, with ore. Hence the famous matchbox made from a specimen:
Dutchman ore Matchbox reverse.jpg
Dutchman ore Matchbox reverse.jpg (78.07 KiB) Viewed 12620 times
I have no idea whose photo this originally was, it has been in circulation online for some time now, however it is definitely the matchbox in question, showing the reverse side.

The candle box of some 48 pounds of gold ore taken by Dick Holmes was also ore, not nuggets.

Agreed that a great deal of BS has been added to the original facts and I am convinced that the story as commonly accepted is a mix of at least several different, unrelated gold mines. However there is enough "smoke" that Jacob Waltz had a secret source of very rich ore, which he did not develop in a big way. The fact that no one has found it, and all the BS added since then, do not mean that the original facts that began this legend are false. No one has found the tomb of Genghis Khan, however it must exist somewhere, as an example.

There was a pretty good thread here on Ruth, should make for some interesting reading for you Don.

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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Don,
My house has been a construction zone and have not had a computer to reply until now; a cell phone does not work for me. This thread seems to have grown legs, and that is great to see.

Other than the life and times of Jacob Waltz and the genealogy and history provided by Dr. Thomas Glover, what is left? Geology and Maps. Granted, there certainly is a pile of b.s. to sort through though regarding the maps.

Geology has to be the #1 key in solving the mystery, because without the geology to support a very rich mining district, not just a small mine, there can be nothing at all. The geology solution is especially difficult because the best indicator of the type of ore deposit in question, wide quartz veinlets, was apparently hacked out of the ground, which I’ll explain later. An exploration geologist, not seeing the in-your-face veinlets, moves on. More subtle, often ignored, indicators are left though; these include intense alteration and massive brecciation.

The geology cannot be learned solely by polishing naugahyde at either a computer desk or in a car; it takes boot leather (not saddle leather) combined with the questioning of the widely-accepted work of others.

At the PDAC convention in Toronto last February, exploration geologists were approached with the theory that deep brine lakes and the Superstition volcanism occurred simultaneously and that a potential Au-VMS deposit was formed because of this(only 13 Au-VMS deposits have every been found in the world). A polished piece of gossan breccia from the Molly Marie Prospect was shown to them as well. Some seemed impressed and said that nobody has ever made that connection before.

It is offered that the geologic conditions required for the formation of an ultra-rich Au deposit are at the Molly Marie Prospect and are like no other. The concurrence of brine lakes as a solvent, 500 feet thick of coarse granitic sandstone/conglomerate as a gold donor, a rhyolitic volcano to create even more donor material, and a boiling zone in the same place at the same time is in itself unprecedented.

But that is not all. The collapse caldera (centered over the magma chamber of a volcano) at the Molly Marie Prospect has 50 feet of physically undisturbed basalt in the center that borders the neck of the volcano. The basalt served as a trap for the hot acidic fluids emanating from the magma chamber. Beneath the basalt is vuggy silica created by the acidic fluids which provides an excellent gold trap. Basalt is high in manganese, and the brine containing gold chloride (a product of salt brine dissolving gold) reacts with Mn causing the gold to precipitate.

And still that is not all. After all this, and after the system has cooled down, the gold can be further concentrated by supergene enrichment because of the brine and/or salt left behind, such as occurred in Goldfield.

So, where is the gold? It is believed that most of the supergene gold in the breccias on the margin of the caldera have been mined, mostly by pit. The remaining gold should be under the basalt. The Minas del Oro map and the Peralta-Fish map both indicate negra, or basalt.

The wide veinlets that were once apparently hacked out of the basalt in 1848 are beginning to reappear in many places after erosion. This is an example of what is appearing now:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Photos/bladeqtztwo.jpg

This is called bladed quartz and indicates the boiling zone; quartz has replaced bladed calcite. The green is epidote. This type of rock has been known to cause incontinence in gold explorationists. Often, the wide veinlets and pieces thereof are appearing in basalt altered by acidic fluids to a much softer red rock. This rock is soft enough to dig with a pick, but just barely. Here is what the rock looks like after it has been dug and wet down (notice the narrow veinlets):

http://mollymarieprospect.com/outcropphotos/hempit.JPG

One of the supposed clues from Jacob Waltz was that the “hanging wall is hematite”. There are a lot of garbage “clues” out there, but it seems like this description is too specific to be made up. The ore zone under the basalt would have the altered red basalt in the “back” or hanging wall and it looks like hematite.

So what is next? Ground penetrating radar will be tried next to investigate the previously discussed suspected shaft location and others. If one of these locations is verified, an archaeological dig is warranted (remember the Atocha?). A great positive is this is not in the wilderness area.

Cuzzinjack
don
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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by don »

Cuzzin Jack,
I cant argue about what you have written. The reason being I know very little ,if anything at all, about Geology and rocks and so on and so forth.But as far as I can see ,if your conjectures and those of other geologists are correct,it would "only" show that gold of "this or that" type could or maybe even DOES exist in the places that figure in the legend. Id have no issue with that. But as far as the legend goes anyway,what would we be left with? A coincidental similarity between the experts analysis of what could ,should and might exist and what is suggested on a map(s) which might ,and probabley are forged.
We would still be left with the problem of finding a definitive and proven link between the gold and Jacob Waltz....3rd hand gossip and campfire tales ,in my opinion, dont provide that link. Im sure prospectors of yesteryear were knowledgeable about the outcroppings of, and types of gold that COULD exist in certain surroundings,noyt in the way geologists of today understand them perhaps,but nonetheless for that,knowledgeable all the same. Maybe these issues got tacked on to the original gossip and developed into what we have today. To me the issue is not so much about whether there is a hidden (by design or accident) gold source ,but whether or not Waltz had anything to do with it and whether or not theres any truth whatso-ever in the story. Ive never read anything about this legend ,or the supporting facts, that didnt need a touch of faith to make one believe in the story. That wasnt always the case with me,but the more I read the stronger my opinions became that there was very little ,if any,truth in the legend,and if indeed waltz did have any gold it wasnt of the amount or "purity" we are led to believe.Thats not to say i dont still find the story interesting,I do, but as i wrote earlier ,mainly because of the events connected to it in the 20th century i.e Ruth,Cravey even george kidd maybe.
kind regards
Don update your email address
cuzzinjack
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Re: Casa Caverna

Post by cuzzinjack »

Don,

I can tell that you are still a little bit intrigued by the mystery; and you must have had a great interest at one time to have studied so much about it.
As you know, it is accepted by most that the Lost Dutchman mine is one of the Peralta mines, and from all the things I have read, there is not one bit of physical evidence that the Peralta family was near the Superstitions…………until now.

The photos I’ve posted here of the cart ruts are hard evidence that the Peraltas were here, in large numbers. As can be seen in the photos, the rock is so hard that the 4wd traffic crossing them did not even begin to wear them down. But, no one says a peep about the ruts on this site. And, the mercury vapor survey results gained and partially posted here is a double-down that there was a major ore processing site in First Water Canyon, at First Water Ranch. Still, no reply. There is much more evidence there I’m sure.

There is only one area where the quantity of ore that passed through those ruts could have come from, both geographically and geologically . (an oxen pulls at only 2 miles per hour!) I believe the core of this area is under the basalt within a rough, 600 yard diameter circle. Evidence of pits in the breccias was found with seismic methods, and now the shafts will be sought. Over the Christmas holidays, a GPR survey is planned.

Cuzzinjack

P.S. Supergene gold such as found at Goldfield is very pure. It is not uncommon for it to run .900 fine.
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