Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Oroblanco
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Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Oroblanco »

This is partly for bait - to see if we can get a discussion going here. So don't take any of this personal - anyone!

On the Lost Dutchman gold mine legend.

I contend that the Lost Dutchman story, as we have it today, is a confabulation of several different, almost certainly unrelated lost mines. One of them is not even lost, and at least one other was "transplanted" from a completely different mountain range entirely.

Look at the various clues we have (of the over 100+ available) - for starters, the mine is described as having a huge, funnel-shaped pit, with a tunnel driven in the mountain below it, that may or may not intersect the pit/shaft. The funnel portion was large enough to require ladders to descend or climb out.

Another description of Waltz's mine, states it has an opening no larger than a barrel, and is no more than a dozen feet deep or so.

The mine can NOT be both of these descriptions. Clearly they are describing two different mines!

I contend that the funnel shaped pit and tunnel beneath, originate with the Peralta/Ludy story. It is found in Barry Storm's first book, and rather odd that he did not notice the parallels. Storm had it as a man named Ludy and another named Jacobs, were hired by Peralta to act as guards while he made a trip to his mine, you know the story as it is identical with the Waltz story. One of the earliest versions of this story however had the mine as a SILVER mine, and the fact that Pierpont Bicknell found evidence of primitive silver smelting in the stone cabin (which he took as a hot clue that he was near the Lost Dutchman GOLD mine) certainly points to this lost mine having been a silver mine all along.

Then there are the 2 Soldiers. There are at least three, possibly four different lost soldier mines in Arizona alone (and another in Montana, one in California, one in the Yukon and another in Alaska, even here in South Dakota there is such a lost mine story) and it is highly suspicious that when you trace the oldest versions of these lost "Soldier" mines, they are not located in the Superstitions at all, but in the 4 Peaks, in the Dripping Springs, even in the Eagle Tail mountains. Not to point the finger at Storm or Bicknell for having done the transplant, and it may have been done by a newspaper man whom honestly believed that one of these other lost Soldier mines really was located in the Superstitions, and yes I am well aware of the grave and soldier buttons found. I don't buy it - there ought to be records to show the two soldiers existed, and their disappearance in the newspapers of the day. There is no such record.

Then we have the incompatible geography - the Pioneer Interviews version has it that Waltz had a gold mine on a side canyon off of Pinto creek. Bicknell stated the mine is within a five mile radius of Weavers Needle. No part of Pinto Creek or any canyon draining into it, is within five miles of Weavers Needle.

We can toss in the gold of Apache Jack, which was black quartz studded with specks of gold, "like stars in the night sky". This sounds very different from the white quartz or rose quartz (as some prefer to call it) and likely is a different kind of gold vein altogether.

What about the Doc Thorne gold? This too has several different versions, being a placer, a lode (vein) or just a pile of gold, either laying in the bottom of a canyon and running visibly up the sides, or paving the canyon floor with nuggets, or in a pile on the ground, or piled in a cave. Thorne searched the area known as the "rolls" located SW of Four Peaks when he went searching, an area today very popular with people on quads. I don't know of any time when he searched on the south side of the Salt river, yet some have linked this with the Jacob Waltz story too.

Sims Ely interviewed a Mexican woman who remembered her husband winnowing the gold up on top of a mesa, using the wind to separate the grains of gold, which were like "grains of wheat" - this is clearly a placer and not a lode mine yet Ely did not seem to make that distinction. It is very unlikely this has anything to do with Waltz.

Then there is Joe Deering and later John Chuning - again some of the clues now in popular use, like the "trick in the trail" came from Deering, and Deering found his mine laying OPEN to the sky, while Waltz supposedly went to some lengths to conceal his mine. According to the stories, Waltz laid in ironwood logs and then dirt, rocks etc so that you could then take an Army pack train across it and never see it. Does that jibe with Deering finding his mine laying open to the sky? It does not to me.

There is the now famous Pit mine, which I contend was originally a silver mine that had some nice pockets of gold in it. It is not that unusual to find nice pockets of gold in silver mines, in fact it is reported from silver mines in the Tombstone district, and in the Rogers/Randolph district as well. Even the Silver King had some nice pockets of gold found over the years it was operating. This Pit mine has an open funnel shaped pit and a shaft below that goes toward the shaft. It is however quite deep, over eighty feet according to one source. The remaining rock sure looks like what you see in silver mines too. I have yet to see any assay from any of the ore removed from the Pit mine but my bet would be that it shows high values in silver, while we know that Waltz's ore was tested for Holmes and came back with rather low values in silver, compared to very high values of gold. In my opinion this can not be the same mine.

So here is my contention - so long as treasure hunters continue to search for the LDM using this mish-mosh of clues and stories from several different mines, they will never find the mine of Jacob Waltz because that mine as described in these wildly different stories and clues never existed. In fact there are several lost mines in the region, and if we could but separate the clues and use ordinary prospecting methods, we might stand a chance to find one or more of these mines.

Now go ahead, fire away and blow holes in my theory. Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

"as we have it today" I would agree with 100%

Not only do you have old timers who simply become confused, but there is always someone waiting in the wings to create his own version for whatever reason.

That's why I always suggest that folks go back to the stories that come from those closest to the events. Everything starts with Bark and Ely for me.

Good thread,

Joe
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe - amen to your entire post. The only point that might be a question mark, is starting with Bark and Ely.

To all:

As you know Ely's book was not published until 1953 and the Bark notes did not become available to anyone for a number of years after that. There were other sources available previous to Ely's book and the Bark notes; for instance John D. Mitchell's articles, or one at least, was published a few years before Ely's book came out. Mitchell apparently interviewed several people that Ely did not, including Poston. The real "original" and published source was Pierpont C. Bicknell. He was 'on the scene' much earlier than Ely and Bark, his first article on the LDM appearing in 1894, just three years after Waltz's death. His source appears to have been Julia Thomas only, although we do not know if he also talked to Reiny or Dick Holmes or anyone else, as he only refers to Julia and then only obliquely, as "the woman". Bicknell wrote that he thought her memory must be faulty, and this faulty memory was resulting in no one being able to locate the mine.

Unfortunately Bicknell was prone to embellishment, and had no qualms about mixing together different, unrelated stories because apparently he believed they were really all talking about the same mine. The same is true with Ely, and worse, the book we have from Sims Ely is not really arranged the way he composed it at all. As you know, (for our readers whom are not posting) Ely's book manuscript was handed to an editor at the publishing house, and the editor took the collection of short stories, anecdotes etc and put it into a narrative form, which must have altered the manuscript quite markedly. We do not know for instance, if the editor even got the time line of the events in Ely's book, in the correct order.

I have left out another early author too, Barry Storm, whose book On the Trail of the Lost Dutchman was published in 1939, fourteen years before Ely's book appeared on shelves and includes a very telling part of how these stories got mixed, for he has the 'Jacobs and Ludy' mine story linked with the Peraltas, which today we know were two men named Ludy, one having Jacob as the first name and these two men had served in the Army in the Civil War but on the Union side - they also had a sizable age difference, which could mean brothers, or father and son, OR uncle and nephew, which might just be the origin of that part of the story. I am digressing -but anyway also we have the Pioneer Interviews, which were written during the Depression years as a government project to put unemployed writers to work. These interviews may or may not have predated Ely's book as well, and it is possible that the persons being interviewed, if they were being truthful, had known Waltz personally during his lifetime in which case they are one step closer to the source than we get from Ely, Bark, Mitchell, or even Bicknell, for Bicknell did not just publish what he was told, he mixed that information in with his own interpretation of the various tales that were in circulation in the Phoenix area in 1894-5.

So while I agree 100% that Ely's book, and the Bark notes, are the best sources for any beginner and ought to be the foundation sources for a new Dutch hunter's library, I must respectfully disagree that they are the earliest possible sources, nor are they error-free. Ely was also not the most knowledgeable prospector, and did not seem to notice a difference between placer and lode. I think you would agree that in modern years, some excellent new research has been published by Dr Thomas Glover, Helen Corbin and others, along with some deceitful and false information that unfortunately got mixed in with the true. Strange though, this is not very different from what has been going on with the LDM legend since 1891, with unrelated stories of different lost mines being mixed with Waltz until today we have a complex, incredible tall tale of a mixed-up mine that never existed. We could get a similar result if we were to mix together the story of the Silver King and the Crown King mines, which would make a great and equally complex story, complete with a soldier finding the deposit and then vanishing etc but to search for that mixed up story mine, we will never find it because it is a confabulated mix.

I do not know if it is even possible to fully sort out the intertwined tales and faulty information that is blended in to the LDM legend today, it might be possible to extricate some though. As to who or whom to throw the proverbial stones at for this mixing up of stories, we might start with Bicknell but really we might also include Julia, Reiney and even Dick Holmes, or possibly the Dutchman himself. From the Holmes manuscript we have that odd detail about Waltz asking God for forgiveness, perhaps he was mixing up stories even on his deathbed, or perhaps he was mixing the stories due to a fevered mind, and a profound lack of oxygen getting to his brain.

I see that as usual, we have a number of people reading and not posting. I had thought that first post might get a rise out of some of our experts, perhaps it will yet. To you whom are reading but not posting - please don't hesitate to dive in, vent your opinion, tell me where I got it all wrong and I will be respectful. Yes this thread was started partly as "bait" to get people talking again, and intended to start a friendly argument, like a debate and discussion not really to anger anyone or cast insults. I was being a little dishonest about when I realized the LDM legend is really a mix of unrelated stories, I did not just suddenly realize it; for my wife and I arrived at this conclusion some years ago, and for some time I thought that most other Dutch hunters also already knew it, but that no one was saying it. That was incorrect, apparently most are unaware of the mixing of tales that are now the LDM, and probably I should have made it public sooner. My apologies for that bit of dishonesty, <proving Oroblanco is still a great liar! :mrgreen: > which however does not alter any of the facts or what was posted.

So fire away amigos, let me have it with both barrels and set me (and the record) straight - don't hold back. I won't be offended and everyone reading our discussion will benefit from the shared knowledge. Thank you all in advance;
Roy ~ Oroblanco
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello Oroblanco,

It’s great to see a discussion here relevant to the task at hand. Agreed, there is so much chaff out there, it is difficult to know truth from fiction. Bark and Ely seem to have been very honorable men, but their research into the situation seems to have been highly skewed by the fact that their base of operations was the Bark ranch. After reading “The Lost Dutchman Mine” it appears they seldom, if ever ventured to the north and west sides of the mountain and the possibility of the mines being there was off of their radar screen. Sims Ely did describe the Lost Dutchman Mine as a “pit”.

So what are the facts, and only the facts? These are the facts as seen:
• Jacob Waltz was an ex-miner that lived in Phoenix.
• He sold a lot of gold or gold ore. (note: not a fact, but it is this miner’s opinion that it is doubtful that so much gold could be high-graded from a working mine owned and managed by others, a.k.a. the Vulture)
• The original Lost Dutchman legend is tied directly to the Peralta family.
• Thomas Glover tied the modern day Peralta’s to those of the 19th century by interviews with Peralta descendents and genealogy. He discovered a near-mirror of the same legend of massacre(s) and lost mines near the Superstitions. It is believed that Thomas Glover’s research is the single sole thread, and the most important, that ties the few facts together.
• There has been no evidence of geology found in the interior of the Superstitions that is indicative of a significant ore deposit which can support the Peralta legend of many mines. The rock surrounding a significant deposit is altered. This alteration is a dead giveaway and cannot be hidden.
• There is textbook geologic alteration and breccias north of the Superstitions indicative of a very large ore deposit. My previous posts and website describe this.

This is my theory of what happened: (it will remain theory until rich ore is found)
• There were many pits that were mined in breccias for over 100 years and the operations were directed by the Peralta family. Several have been indicated by seismic survey.
• The ore was supergene, shallow, and very rich, similar to that mined at the Mammoth, but there was much more of it. (Supergene ore is typically found in drainages in breccias, and that may have led to the later confusion of “placeras” when they were really hardrock pits in the drainages.)
• In 1847, a large party, led by Peraltas, was sent to hide the mines. Mexico City fell to American forces in September, 1847. The party may have been ordered by Santa Anna himself to hide the “national treasure”. They traveled down the San Pedro River, then the Gila. Then, they veered north and west near Florence.
• There were many women in the party (camp followers, if not wives), and oxcarts. They traveled around the west end of Superstition Mountain.
• They filled in the pits and swept up the camps. But, all evidence, including botillo sherds, could not be found so it could be hid. The sherds are un-glazed, very thin, and blend in well with the dirt. Some mining was done at this time also.
• As the Peralta Party was leaving, loaded and single file (similar to what happened at Ft. William Henry to the English), they were ambushed and massacred. Since buckshot was used almost exclusively against Apaches during this time period, this site may be able to be verified by the density of its occurrence.
• It is possible that the dictator Santa Anna could have ordered the massacre as well to eliminate the witnesses. His army had just recently massacred over 400 Americans at Goliad with clubs and guns at point-blank range.
• It is theorized that one of the pits was later reopened and became the “Lost Dutchman”, and was later re-filled. Some say by the Apaches themselves.
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Oroblanco »

cuzzinjack wrote:Hello Oroblanco,

It’s great to see a discussion here relevant to the task at hand. Agreed, there is so much chaff out there, it is difficult to know truth from fiction. Bark and Ely seem to have been very honorable men, but their research into the situation seems to have been highly skewed by the fact that their base of operations was the Bark ranch. After reading “The Lost Dutchman Mine” it appears they seldom, if ever ventured to the north and west sides of the mountain and the possibility of the mines being there was off of their radar screen. Sims Ely did describe the Lost Dutchman Mine as a “pit”.

So what are the facts, and only the facts? These are the facts as seen:
• Jacob Waltz was an ex-miner that lived in Phoenix.
• He sold a lot of gold or gold ore. (note: not a fact, but it is this miner’s opinion that it is doubtful that so much gold could be high-graded from a working mine owned and managed by others, a.k.a. the Vulture)
• The original Lost Dutchman legend is tied directly to the Peralta family.
• Thomas Glover tied the modern day Peralta’s to those of the 19th century by interviews with Peralta descendents and genealogy. He discovered a near-mirror of the same legend of massacre(s) and lost mines near the Superstitions. It is believed that Thomas Glover’s research is the single sole thread, and the most important, that ties the few facts together.
• There has been no evidence of geology found in the interior of the Superstitions that is indicative of a significant ore deposit which can support the Peralta legend of many mines. The rock surrounding a significant deposit is altered. This alteration is a dead giveaway and cannot be hidden.
• There is textbook geologic alteration and breccias north of the Superstitions indicative of a very large ore deposit. My previous posts and website describe this.

This is my theory of what happened: (it will remain theory until rich ore is found)
• There were many pits that were mined in breccias for over 100 years and the operations were directed by the Peralta family. Several have been indicated by seismic survey.
• The ore was supergene, shallow, and very rich, similar to that mined at the Mammoth, but there was much more of it. (Supergene ore is typically found in drainages in breccias, and that may have led to the later confusion of “placeras” when they were really hardrock pits in the drainages.)
• In 1847, a large party, led by Peraltas, was sent to hide the mines. Mexico City fell to American forces in September, 1847. The party may have been ordered by Santa Anna himself to hide the “national treasure”. They traveled down the San Pedro River, then the Gila. Then, they veered north and west near Florence.
• There were many women in the party (camp followers, if not wives), and oxcarts. They traveled around the west end of Superstition Mountain.
• They filled in the pits and swept up the camps. But, all evidence, including botillo sherds, could not be found so it could be hid. The sherds are un-glazed, very thin, and blend in well with the dirt. Some mining was done at this time also.
• As the Peralta Party was leaving, loaded and single file (similar to what happened at Ft. William Henry to the English), they were ambushed and massacred. Since buckshot was used almost exclusively against Apaches during this time period, this site may be able to be verified by the density of its occurrence.
• It is possible that the dictator Santa Anna could have ordered the massacre as well to eliminate the witnesses. His army had just recently massacred over 400 Americans at Goliad with clubs and guns at point-blank range.
• It is theorized that one of the pits was later reopened and became the “Lost Dutchman”, and was later re-filled. Some say by the Apaches themselves.
Great post Cuzzinjack! Unfortunately I don't see anything to take issue with :mrgreen:

That is an interesting possibility about Santa Anna being involved, especially when it was clear that he was losing his war with the US.

Please do continue - and maybe we can breathe some life back into this forum after all!

Oroblanco

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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by djui5 »

Ugh, I replied to this and it disappeared. Anyway, I said basically that I like your thought process Roy, and I discount what Bickenell/Storm say because they are sensationilists (sp?).
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Oroblanco »

Thanks buddy - I just wish I had figured out that mixing of stories a long time ago.

What do you think about Charles Rodig? He claimed that Waltz had given him instructions on how to find the mine and spent some time searching. Thank you in advance;
Roy
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by cuzzinjack »

To test the aforementioned theory(without drilling), it is thought that these categories have to be proven:
1) The geology
2) Evidence of Peralta’s in the area
3) Jacob Waltz connection (because this is where it all began, but will never be fully proven)
The geology category is the most important. The geology found so far supports a significant, and if not, large, multi-metal mining district north of the Superstitions.
In regard to the Peralta’s, Thomas Glover has strong evidence that the family mined in the Superstition Arizona and the massacre took place. But with a simple study, it can be known for sure that they were there.
Buckshot constructed of brittle lead has been found, widely separated, over a large area, but possible ambush sites have not been tested.
Several metal detector surveys were conducted at the Custer Battlefield monument in Montana by volunteers, the first occurring in 1984. The items found told a great story of how the battle proceeded. It is suggested that this be done north of the Superstitions. One major issue to overcome is the occurrence of modern lead. Devices such as a White’s TRX pinpoint detector can find items quickly after a location is found with a sweeping detector. The pinpoint detectors can help immensely with winnowing through the modern lead, and modern GPS could easily map the discoveries. This would be a great experience.
How about Waltz? There is a mountain of anecdotal, he-said, she-said evidence available, so much so that to make any sense of it is impossible. Here is an attempt to take the subject to the bone and use logic and my theory as a hypothetical basis:
To start with, what path would Waltz have used to get to the Superstition mountains from Phoenix? Somebody may have debated this already, but I’ve not read it, so my slate is clean. Logically, Waltz would have followed the Salt River upstream, but crossed to the south side at some point. When he reached the north end of modern-day Val Vista Drive it is logical that he left the Salt River. His next water is approximately 17 miles away at Government Well. He would have followed a path following the current Lost Dutchman Boulevard and dropped down into modern-day Apache Junction and then followed the path of Highway 88. This should have taken 5 to 6 hours? on horseback while packing minimal water in cool weather. This path is clean and clear and one that is easy to watch a back trail because of the slight ridge east of Ellsworth. This route would be versus the tougher trail of following the Salt river, crossing tributaries, and coming back through the mountains. Below is a diagram of the theoretical path he would have followed:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... atrail.jpg

Why is this path important? Because of the view he would have had along the way. Most have probably seen this map; somewhere it was read that it was part of series of maps leading to the mine:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... apw.aj.jpg

This is a view looking across Apache Junction from Meridian overpass on Highway 60:

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... rossaj.jpg

Please note the remarkable similarity; the map is looking south, the photo is looking north. These 3 hills can be seen for a considerable distance driving north on Highway 88. Remember the supposed clue “if you get to the three red hills you have went too far”? (they are red on a clear day). The pits indicated by seismic survey are situated in front of these hills.

There is a lot of mention and maps placing the Lost Dutchman mine’s location where the 4 Peaks line up. It is proposed that maybe due to broken English, that someone misunderstood. Here is the view from Highway 88. Please note the sign. The pits indicated by seismic survey are dead ahead, about a mile.

http://mollymarieprospect.com/Peralta2p ... 4peaks.JPG

There are a lot more “coincidences”, but calling it off for this post
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by djui5 »

Oroblanco wrote:
What do you think about Charles Rodig? He claimed that Waltz had given him instructions on how to find the mine and spent some time searching. Thank you in advance;
Roy
I don't recall doing any research on him, I will this fall though.
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Oroblanco »

djui5 wrote:
Oroblanco wrote:
What do you think about Charles Rodig? He claimed that Waltz had given him instructions on how to find the mine and spent some time searching. Thank you in advance;
Roy
I don't recall doing any research on him, I will this fall though.
No worries amigo I don't have much on him either. He is named in several newspaper articles in the late 1890s and supposedly had the instructions to find the mine - apparently it did not work for him either. Just wondered if you had heard anything more about him.
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hello All,

I don't know how to post the photos in a post rather than by a link. Maybe this will do it. They are in the same order.......

Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by cuzzinjack »

Hmmmm, that did it. Oroblanco, you were saying?

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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Mike McChesney »

Roy,

In your initial post, it looks like you are doubting the existence of the Two Soldiers Mine in the Supers. If it were just a story, I might be inclined to believe you. Too much first and second hand evidence for this to be fantasy.

1. Aaron Mason that managed the store for the Silver King Mine saw the gold and heard their story. He outfitted them as they needed and they still had a $300 plus credit in the General Store.

2. Another part of this story is about a Goldfield Local that had a club foot. He was just some local that did odd jobs around local saloons. A man with a club foot that lived in Alaska, told a man about two murders he committed in Arizona. The two men he killed were soldiers.

3. Tom Kollenborn tells part of their story here:
Another story that associates itself with the Two Lost Soldier’s mine occurred just east of the old Bark Ranch (Quarter Circle U Ranch) in Pinal County. Matt Caveness built the old stone house (barn) at the Bark Ranch in 1877. The old stone house had rifle ports because Apaches still raided in those days. Caveness sold the ranch to a man name Marlowe in 1878 or 1879. Marlowe tried to make a living raising a few dairy cows and hauling the milk to the Silver King mine to sell it.

The Marlowe boy was bringing in some milk cows from about a half-mile east of the Bark Ranch in 1880 when he found a body along the trail. The man had been shot in the head. The boy said the man was dressed like a soldier.

The body was buried where it was found and, according to Gus Barkley, the grave was dug up in 1907 or 1908. The incident really upset Barkley and he ask Roy Bradford, who was working for him at the time, to rebury the soldier. This was one of the earliest references to the man being a soldier.

Some time in spring of 1954 my father and I were visiting with Gus Barkley at the old Quarter Circle W (Three R’s) just east of Dinosaur Mountain in what is now Gold Canyon. Gus insisted the victim that lay in that grave was a soldier because of military blouse he was wearing and the buttons on it. He further said the Marlowe boy had told him the military buttons were clear indicators of a mustered out military person. Anyone else would have been accused of being absent from duty.
The Two Soldiers Stry is one of the more authentic off most of the tales surrounding the Supers.

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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Oroblanco »

Mike McChesney wrote:Roy,

In your initial post, it looks like you are doubting the existence of the Two Soldiers Mine in the Supers. If it were just a story, I might be inclined to believe you. Too much first and second hand evidence for this to be fantasy.

1. Aaron Mason that managed the store for the Silver King Mine saw the gold and heard their story. He outfitted them as they needed and they still had a $300 plus credit in the General Store.

2. Another part of this story is about a Goldfield Local that had a club foot. He was just some local that did odd jobs around local saloons. A man with a club foot that lived in Alaska, told a man about two murders he committed in Arizona. The two men he killed were soldiers.

3. Tom Kollenborn tells part of their story here:
Another story that associates itself with the Two Lost Soldier’s mine occurred just east of the old Bark Ranch (Quarter Circle U Ranch) in Pinal County. Matt Caveness built the old stone house (barn) at the Bark Ranch in 1877. The old stone house had rifle ports because Apaches still raided in those days. Caveness sold the ranch to a man name Marlowe in 1878 or 1879. Marlowe tried to make a living raising a few dairy cows and hauling the milk to the Silver King mine to sell it.

The Marlowe boy was bringing in some milk cows from about a half-mile east of the Bark Ranch in 1880 when he found a body along the trail. The man had been shot in the head. The boy said the man was dressed like a soldier.

The body was buried where it was found and, according to Gus Barkley, the grave was dug up in 1907 or 1908. The incident really upset Barkley and he ask Roy Bradford, who was working for him at the time, to rebury the soldier. This was one of the earliest references to the man being a soldier.

Some time in spring of 1954 my father and I were visiting with Gus Barkley at the old Quarter Circle W (Three R’s) just east of Dinosaur Mountain in what is now Gold Canyon. Gus insisted the victim that lay in that grave was a soldier because of military blouse he was wearing and the buttons on it. He further said the Marlowe boy had told him the military buttons were clear indicators of a mustered out military person. Anyone else would have been accused of being absent from duty.
The Two Soldiers Stry is one of the more authentic off most of the tales surrounding the Supers.

Mike
All well and good - except the very same story is found in at least two other versions, neither of which is set in the Superstition mountains. Funny coincidence to have two soldiers come in to see Mason and then vanish later etc. Anyone ever found the names of the two soldiers that left Ft McDowell in the Superstitions version? You can find the names for the soldiers in the other lost Soldier mines in Arizona, but not this one. There are several Two Soldiers lost mines in Arizona, including in the Dripping Springs mountains, the Sierra Anchas, another one out in the Harquahala mountains too - but it is rather odd to have matching details like going in to see Mason before disappearing.

Don't get me wrong, I have NO doubt that the events at Silver King (or Pinal, whichever the case may be) really happened and two soldiers were involved, just that story seems to have gotten transplanted into the Superstitions from another mountain range entirely. By the way, why would there only be ONE soldier's grave? Ever thought on that aspect? Could that dead soldier (if he was really a soldier in that grave) have been the victim of an encounter with Apaches, or a deadly mishap? Could it be that people are connecting dots that are not really connected?

What is the OLDEST date for publication of this 2 Soldiers mine in the Superstitions that you have seen? The reason I ask this is because I have seen a different version (not in the Superstitions) that predates 1880, and includes meeting Mason but at Pinal rather than Silver King, as Mason had a store in Pinal <aka Picket Post>
ad-for-mason-store-1878-picket-post.jpg
ad-for-mason-store-1878-picket-post.jpg (73.06 KiB) Viewed 15718 times
This ad ran in 1878, as you can see Mason is clearly listed as one of the owners of a store in Picket Post (Pinal).

Good to see you posting here again buddy, we will breathe some life into this forum yet! I hope to see you this fall!
Roy
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

My Uncle Chuck wrote two names somewhere, that he believed were the names of the two soldiers. I have posted them before, but have no idea where his original notation is. I will see if I can find it.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

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I seem to remember you posting their names somewhere. Weren't they French Names?

Mike
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

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Mike,

That rings a bell, but it's a small one.

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Mike McChesney »

I thought they were brothers, and both were French Canadians. Does that sound familiar?

Mike
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

This is from an old post here......but no names:



Post subject: Dates.....

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:25 pm



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Wayne,

If I were to go looking for a date when Jim Bark may have first heard this story, I believe I would see what I could find on a man named Wiley Holman in Pinal. He was the source for Bark's story. Interestingly enough, one of Storm's companions in 1937 was a young man named Gene Holman. Gene was from Wisconsin.

While Storm's book was Copyrighted in 1939, it was mostly written by 1937. The story he told the people who went into the mountains with him in 1937 was not the same as what he had written. Storm had been searching the mountains since around 1935, but had been "interested" since the Ruth killing in 1931.

One of Storm's friends stated that Barry told him he had made up the Two Soldiers tale completely.

Others have more information on this legend than I do. Peter would be the one to talk to......if he will talk. :)

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

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Joe Ribaudo wrote:Mike,

This is from an old post here......but no names:



Post subject: Dates.....

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:25 pm



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Wayne,

If I were to go looking for a date when Jim Bark may have first heard this story, I believe I would see what I could find on a man named Wiley Holman in Pinal. He was the source for Bark's story. Interestingly enough, one of Storm's companions in 1937 was a young man named Gene Holman. Gene was from Wisconsin.

While Storm's book was Copyrighted in 1939, it was mostly written by 1937. The story he told the people who went into the mountains with him in 1937 was not the same as what he had written. Storm had been searching the mountains since around 1935, but had been "interested" since the Ruth killing in 1931.

One of Storm's friends stated that Barry told him he had made up the Two Soldiers tale completely.

Others have more information on this legend than I do. Peter would be the one to talk to......if he will talk. :)

Good luck,

Joe
Not to further press it, but the two soldiers story was also left out of his movie script. I think Mike is correct that Storm called the two soldiers French Canadian, but I could not find any names to attach to these storied soldiers, nor any French Canadians leaving the Army in the requisite time span for Ft McDowell. Further:
Don considered Barry Storm a good friend. Don told me about how Barry moved the “Two Soldiers” story from the Mount Ord area to the Weaver’s Needle area.
<from Tom K's chronicles at: http://superstitionmountaintomkollenbor ... chive.html
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

Found the names in Chuck's copy of "Thunder God's Gold". Have no idea how or where he got those names, and have no idea if they are right. He wrote Sanders & Anderson at the top of page 59. On the bottom of the preceding page, Storm wrote:

"....Two other soldiers-French-Canadian adventurers whose right names are either buried now in the archives of the War Department or were more probably never known......."

Chuck's note does not sound like they were French-Canadian.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Lets see who is reading this - a new argument on the LDM

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

Found the names in Chuck's copy of "Thunder God's Gold". Have no idea how or where he got those names, and have no idea if they are right. He wrote Sanders & Anderson at the top of page 59. On the bottom of the preceding page, Storm wrote:

"....Two other soldiers-French-Canadian adventurers whose right names are either buried now in the archives of the War Department or were more probably never known......."

Chuck's note does not sound like they were French-Canadian.

Take care,

Joe
Thanks for taking the trouble to hunt them up, they are the names I was expecting, although it was possible that the two soldiers of the Dripping Springs lost mine could have been it. It also confirms that the story was transplanted. The lost Sanders gold mine was not even in the Superstition mountains when it was first made public and Mt Ord is one of the locations where it is supposed to be, the same as Don Shade stated that Barry Storm moved his tale of the two soldiers. It also dates to the 1870s, not 1880s.
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