The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

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The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby buscar » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:03 pm

2015 — The Legend of the Superstition Mountains of Arizona in New Series on History Channel Sunday 8th February 10:03pm EST… Wayne Tuttle and his team follow a new lead which could solve the enigma of America's most famous buried treasure.

There’s gold in them thar stories and that’s where most of it is

buscar :)

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby djui5 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:01 pm

Cool show!!
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Scott » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:59 pm

Hello folks,
I am looking for information about the "Black Legion". The Dutch hunter John Mc Laughlin explained to me the reasons and times ,I should not be in the hills. His advice was that Valentines day until the end of March , is a no go time. We always followed this rule.
I am looking for any information as to the reasons behind this "rule" that we follow ,
Respectfully ,Scott

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby LDMFAN » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:26 am

Because the weather is perfect for hunting and there is still plenty of water. Put the fear into the greenhorns to keep them out of the mountains so the real LDM hunters can do their thing without tripping over the amateurs ;)

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:02 am

Scott wrote:Hello folks,
I am looking for information about the "Black Legion". The Dutch hunter John Mc Laughlin explained to me the reasons and times ,I should not be in the hills. His advice was that Valentines day until the end of March , is a no go time. We always followed this rule.
I am looking for any information as to the reasons behind this "rule" that we follow ,
Respectfully ,Scott


Scott,

I don't know if the Black Legion is still active in the mountains, but for fifty+years, we always went into the mountains around the middle to the end of March.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Potbelly Jim » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:24 am

Scott,
Whatever the Black Legion is or ever was, Valentines to the end of March sounds like a good time to be in the mountains. Just watch out for snakes... Be advised that the Supes are the most trampled over and searched area in all of Arizona, with the exception of the Grand Canyon. If there is a "Black Legion", it's nothing to be afraid of, maybe something to be laughed at. I sure did. Perhaps they are the enemy of the LDM "Honey-Comb Hideout". After watching the TV show, and "Ice Cold Gold", I have few questions left. What a shame.
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby walker12 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:11 am

The show certainly has some great scenery.

Some of the dangers they think they are facing (black helipcopters, gun shots, people following them, black hand types, lights at night, lost radio communications in slot canyons) and their reaction to them strikes me as over-acting. Maybe that is the fault of the show producers asking the team to play it up for the cameras.

The fact that they have to ask for help to find common maps also seems suspect to me. Then again maybe the show producers ask them to dumb it down to help the audience understand the stories.

Last night's episode seemed particularly odd. Somebody built that ladder system decades ago just to look at the bats and missed the cross (i.e. not one visitor had the tools to steal it over the years to keep a clue for themself and/or put it on a mantle). Moreover no mention of a tailings dump to verify an actual mining location. No concern by the team that the place has already had any treasure removed.

The team thinking, at least for a time, that the big black cross on the cliff face was the site of a treasure rather than just a milepost on the trail to a treasure also struck me as odd. At least it would never occur to me to put a treasure right under an enormous cross that an even nominally curious person might inspect.

Granted I didn't expect the team to actually find the LDM, let alone tell the world where it is. However I did expect better than what seemed to me more like a bunch of amatuers starting from scratch to find the LDM. Just my $.02.

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby TC ASKEY » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:52 pm

Certainly better than watching the national news. What I want to know, is who got stuck
carrying the 40 gallons of water after the horses left?

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Potbelly Jim » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:59 am

It does have some great scenery, and I think we all know very little if any was shot in the wilderness. And the helicopters...I'm sure they all know there's a little helicopter factory nearby that could explain the Apache attack helo. So it must be the producers.

What I meant by what a shame it was, I get the same feeling from Ice Cold Gold and this show. I was looking forward to both shows because people like Wayne Tuttle, the Feldmans, and Woody were in the shows. I'm thinking this is going to be great! Then it turns out to be just a TV show for the masses, not necessarily for prospectors. Oh well, they have to make money in order to have a TV show in the first place.

From what I've seen of his posts to this forum and others, I think Wayne Tuttle has made some real progress on researching the LDM, also Clay Worst, Jack San Felice, everyone else we've seen on the show has too...And Woody has given my parents help with gold panning, and my aunt and uncle prospect on his claims, and he knows what he's doing. So I'm disappointed the show is going in the direction it has. But, like TC says, better than watching the news, so I am gonna quit whining and just watch it for what it is...entertainment. And the scenery!
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby don » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:16 am

Does anybody know the truth about the jesuit cross found in the bat cave? genuine find or a tv prop?...suspecting none of the filming was done in the actual interior of the mtns,but the outskirts instead.Alsosuspect the forest service dictated where the filming was allowed to take place...true/false?
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:09 am

don wrote:Does anybody know the truth about the jesuit cross found in the bat cave? genuine find or a tv prop?...suspecting none of the filming was done in the actual interior of the mtns,but the outskirts instead.Alsosuspect the forest service dictated where the filming was allowed to take place...true/false?


Don,

I believe most, if not all, of your post is true. It was filmed for entertainment value only. Historically inaccurate.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby don » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:09 am

Joe,
Thanks for your reply.I enjoyed the series ,even If I didnt believe 90% of what was portrayed.I think they might have been better advised to have focused on some of the mysteries Adolph ruth,cravey etc ..in fact I thought at some time during the series they would have. Ive long ago lost any belief in the existence of a mine,but for me anyway,Adolph ruths story is the issue that intrigues me most. Though my take on that seems to be the minority view to put it mildly.
Anyhow I, for one hope the site comes back to life...and maybe it will.
kind regards
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:20 am

don wrote:Joe,
Thanks for your reply.I enjoyed the series ,even If I didnt believe 90% of what was portrayed.I think they might have been better advised to have focused on some of the mysteries Adolph ruth,cravey etc ..in fact I thought at some time during the series they would have. Ive long ago lost any belief in the existence of a mine,but for me anyway,Adolph ruths story is the issue that intrigues me most. Though my take on that seems to be the minority view to put it mildly.
Anyhow I, for one hope the site comes back to life...and maybe it will.
kind regards


Don,

I also enjoyed the series, but took it for what it was not what I wished it to be. Most, if not all of the "evidence" was fabricated for TV. My own opinion is that Wayne was the STAR.

As for Ruth, that is probably my favorite mystery of the Superstition Mountains. I don't believe he came in the way it's been described but that they rode in from the Quarter Circle-U. That being true or not, I think he knew exactly where he wanted to be.

I also believe he was killed above West Boulder Canyon close to Boulder Basin. That's a location that he could easily reach on foot and with the limited water he carried with him. The story that we have all been fed was to lead subsequent searchers away from what he was looking for.

There is a lot more to that story which may never be told, but only speculated upon.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Mike McChesney » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:37 pm

Don,

I am 100% with Joe on this one. When I was originally contacted about the show March 2014, it's working title was "Dead Man's Gold". It was originally just about The LDM. After we discussed a lot of the stories of the Supers (after I was out of it), it looks like they realized that a show just about the LDM would have been too limited in scope, and changed the name to "Legend of the Superstition Mountains", so they could take advantage of many of the stories other than the LDM.

Although I hoped it would be more fact based than sizzle based, I knew they would play to the larger TV Crowd rather than the very limited Dutch Hunter Crowd. Like a producer of a different show explained to me one time "We aren't making a documentary. This is Entertainment for TV. So, it doesn't matter how they pitched it. It is an entertaining show, and I hope they get picked back up for another season.

The basic question is "Would you rather watch that or Honey BooBoo"? HAHAHA

Mike

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Potbelly Jim » Fri May 08, 2015 11:29 pm

Hi Joe,

I also believe he was killed above West Boulder Canyon close to Boulder Basin. That's a location that he could easily reach on foot and with the limited water he carried with him. The story that we have all been fed was to lead subsequent searchers away from what he was looking for


I'm straying off topic, but what you said piqued my interest. I've heard three stories on Ruth, two of which I think are bunk. One is that Barkley Sr. moved his body from its original location, similar to the Gassler account, and the other was similar to the Crooked Mtn. story but without naming Reid and Rose as conspirators. I just chalked it up as "cowboy gossip" making its way into print. I also thought it strange to come in at First Water, why go all the way over there? Who knows.

Anyway, the one story I heard that sort of made sense was that Ruth came across the wrong person at the wrong time and just got shot, and his body was packed off a few miles to get rid of it.

Re: your post, do you think the entire story is false (i.e. Sheriff and Barkley falsified body location)? Regards, Jim
Jim R.

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sat May 09, 2015 7:12 am

Potbelly Jim wrote:Hi Joe,

I also believe he was killed above West Boulder Canyon close to Boulder Basin. That's a location that he could easily reach on foot and with the limited water he carried with him. The story that we have all been fed was to lead subsequent searchers away from what he was looking for


I'm straying off topic, but what you said piqued my interest. I've heard three stories on Ruth, two of which I think are bunk. One is that Barkley Sr. moved his body from its original location, similar to the Gassler account, and the other was similar to the Crooked Mtn. story but without naming Reid and Rose as conspirators. I just chalked it up as "cowboy gossip" making its way into print. I also thought it strange to come in at First Water, why go all the way over there? Who knows.

Anyway, the one story I heard that sort of made sense was that Ruth came across the wrong person at the wrong time and just got shot, and his body was packed off a few miles to get rid of it.

Re: your post, do you think the entire story is false (i.e. Sheriff and Barkley falsified body location)? Regards, Jim


Good morning Jim,

Yes, I believe the entire story was made up, after the fact. The real location where Ruth's body was found was the first casualty of that false story. I also believe there is some evidence to support that theory.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby don » Sun May 10, 2015 1:13 pm

Really cant understand why everyone is so convinced that Ruth was murdered. Theres been at least 2-3 articles Ive read that put forward a ereasonable viewpoint that Ruth was a victim of death by natural causes. Ok maybe i in a minority of 1 here in that view,but still dont believe ,at the very least, that theres conclusive eveidence of murder,or come to that,that a hard and fast conclusion can be reached..either way.
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Potbelly Jim » Sun May 10, 2015 9:35 pm

Hi Don,

You very well may be right. It would be easy for a guy in his condition to die out there. You are also right, I think, that no factual conclusion at all can be reached at this point.

It couldn't at the time, either, because the M.E. never got a look at his skull. It got sent to DC right after it was found. Why not hand it over to the coroner? We are supposed to believe that a "odiferous, green" skull was sent to some out of state anthropologists because it was thought to be ancient. Who would do this after the largest search in AZ history at the time? Odd. Pun intended. It just doesn't pass the "reasonable man" test.

Briefly, the "climate" in AZ at the time: A lot of the people who lived there did so because of the remoteness, and the area had more than its fair share of murderers and thieves. It's remoteness drew them like flies to a corpse, no pun intended this time. Lay on top of that the "clannishness" of the residents, suspicion of outsiders and government, and unseen connections between people through organizations like the LDS, I can only say it was one heck of a unique place, and no place for a guy from DC with a map to a lost Mexican mine. He walked into a buzzsaw. Everyone, and I mean everyone, would have wanted him to disappear, all for their own reasons.

Joe: I understand what you mean about Ruth being moved away from the West Boulder Canyon area. What I don't get is why lead people to the body? Unless the map found with the body, but never officially reported, was bogus and part of the plan? Would be interested in your thoughts if you care to share them, but totally understand if you don't. Best wishes to both of you and thanks - Jim
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon May 11, 2015 9:12 am

Jim,

It's possible, maybe more than possible, that something that was found with the body was not reported at all. On the other hand, maybe that information is out there, just not advertised.

Good luck,

Joe

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby don » Mon May 11, 2015 11:55 am

Hello Potbelly Jim,
I believe that more than likely, that Ruth's death was classed as murder to buttress the "mysterious deaths and beheadings" aspect of the legend by those who gained materially from that ...I.e Barry Storm,and many others,and again,more than likely, the story took on a life of its own from there on in. There might even be a doubt as to whom THAT skull belonged to...I was led to believe at one time that "Ruths" skull was sent to Ruth's Dentist in Washington to ascertain from Ruth's records whether it was indeed his or not,and said examination confirmed it indeed was. It seems that event never occurred..but Im pretty certain that,that was accepted knowledge for a very long time. Many have accepted without question that Adolph Ruth was shot,beheaded without any verifiable proof of such an event occuring.Hrdlickas report has often been used to confirm that the holes in the skull were from bullet wounds.....his report really says very little of the kind.....note the plethora of possibly's,in all probability,s and similar phrases......together with the weapon used as being any one of the following...a shotgun,shot from a gun,pistol, high powered rifle etc....if there is anything certain from Hrdlicka's report,it is that Hrdlicka WASNT really sure of anything. add the fact that Hrdlicka identified the skull as that of a 66 year old man (the age of course Ruth was believed to be at that time,when of course Ruth was instead 76,which might be cynically classed as "convenient accounting"...but maybe we can forgive Hrdlicka that mistake,as it would seem nobody told him (Hrdlicka) Ruths true age......maybe whomever commissioned the "skull report" had some influence on what should or shouldnt be found...Ive obviously got no way of knowing....the official conclusion of "natural causes"...it all seems rather iffy to me.....but still the beat carried on ,"missing files",missing coroners reports (if indeed there were any to begin with) ,in what seems to me anyway, a deliberate attempt to create even more of a mystery of what probabley wasnt very much of a mystery to begin with,if only many hadnt got carried away with the "sexiness" of beheadings,gore, and all the rest of it.......or maybe Im just an old cynic who cant see the wood for the trees....or maybe cant even see the trees. 8O
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Potbelly Jim » Tue May 12, 2015 5:43 am

Hi Don,
I hear ya. I really don't want to believe that Ruth was premeditatively killed, because it will tarnish something I believe in. But what I want to believe and the evidence don't match.

I can see how it's perceived that Ruth's death has been used to further the financial interests of the area. Maybe it's due to the Dons Club. Don't know. All that aside, Ruth's skull apparently rolled at least 100 feet up in elevation from where it could have rolled down. An easy mistake to make in those mountains, but one with no real natural explanation unless it's a very complicated and unlikely one.

Ruth could not have made it from where he was allegedly dropped off to where his body was found. It just can't be done. I think it would be worthwhile to test. Maybe we can get the guy who does Youtube videos to document it. I'm not kidding, it's worth a try just to see. We could also try to make a resin-cast skull get from where Ruth's body was "found" to where his skull was "found". Regardless, it's something we can re-create and test, to the best of our ability.

The skull and the holes in it. Some people think it's not a bullet that did that. Some people think it was. If it wasn't a bullet, again it requires a very complicated and unlikely alternative.

The story doesn't make any sense. Some questions: They went all the way over to First Water to get to Willow Springs from the QCU? These cowboys left this crippled man alone without a horse or burro? He made it to Needle Canyon and up the side of Black Mesa on foot with one thermos of water? His jaw and false teeth were found there but his skull rolled downhill, across a canyon, and at least 100 ft up the other side and almost a mile away? All while his hat was with his body and was never washed or blown away? There were bloodstains on his notes? Where is the pencil? Where is his cane? An unfired revolver? Where are his maps, the real ones?

One thing I have never really heard discussed is politics. Every bad thing in AZ really got started because of this. Even the fight at OK Corral. Sheriffs, city marshals, coroners and Judges in AZ were elected. The civil war may have long ended but its hatreds didn't. People on one side or the other stuck together.

I have already given my opinion, for what it's worth, on unrelated two-legged threats to anyone in the mountains with a map to a lost Mexican gold mine, so wont beat that dead horse again.

Again, you may be right and Ruth died from natural or animal causes. To me it doesn't fit at all. Also, like you said, how can we ever know for sure now? All we can do is go where the evidence takes us. Best regards, Jim
Jim R.

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Potbelly Jim » Tue May 12, 2015 5:48 am

Hi Joe,

I have to log off now but just wanted to say thanks for the tip, I look forward to mulling it over. I'm pretty much stuck as of now and your help is appreciated. Best regards, Jim
Jim R.

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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby don » Tue May 12, 2015 7:20 am

Hi Jim....thanks for your reply...heres an extract from a much longer communication some time ago with an experienced member of search and rescue....I havent included his name as I dont have permission and it might not be appreciated.It addresses I think,at least in some respects ,your "heads distance from body".."holes in head" conundrum...Anyway Id be interested to hear your or anyone elses views on the issue...here goes

" Death in the desert is not very kind to human remains and the animals quickly carry away the bones so as to not have to share them with others. Skulls are often carried away by vultures and dropped onto rocks to break them apart or at least create holes so the vulture can get to what is left inside. One missing person northwest of Four Peaks was found with out his skull and the skull was found years later about 20 miles away resting in the arm of a Saguaro Cactus. I have had a little experience with dead bodies having been a search and rescue

I am not surprised at all that Ruth's skull was not with the rest of his remains and with a hole in it as well. Perhaps he was murdered by a gunshot but what killer would then carry away the victims skull as far as it was?"...............kind regards
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Oroblanco » Tue May 12, 2015 9:46 am

Great posts amigos!

Well not to make an argument out of it, but Dr Hrdlicka is the person who stated Ruth had a 45 caliber bullet hole in his skull. Perhaps this was from a sharp rock, I am no expert. But then look at the circumstances:

Ruth had been packed in by two "cowboys" named Purnell and Keenan. These two drifters were not really cowboys, but had been hanging around at the QCU and happened to be there when Ruth arrived. They were with Ruth to at least his camp site, if he had an accident up to that point, it would have made sense for them to report it.

Instead, they took Ruth's car and drove their girlfriends to town in it, telling everyone that Ruth had given them permission. Does it sound logical that a man would entrust his car to two men he had just met? Ruth seemed a bit too trusting so maybe he did. But he made no mention of lending his car in his notebook either. They then became scarce, but one later returned to the area.

The Phoenix city police were fairly certain that one of the men had murdered Ruth. The blood on the notebook is one clue. The one drifter that returned, brought a girlfriend with him, and she became frightened of him and talked to the police. She told them that he had bragged about killing Ruth and how he had Ruth's map, and would soon be rich.

I do not know how much credence to give the story of Ruth's remains being moved. It is usually attributed to Tex Barkeley. Yet if you think about it, can you imagine moving a dead man, hauling him any distance? The weight would have likely reduced due to drying, but they might have also had quite a smell too. It would have been quite a risk, for what if someone had seen Tex moving the remains? As "empty" of people as the deserts are, there are a surprising number of people wandering around in them and the Superstitions had quite a few treasure hunters active even then, someone might have seen Tex hauling the dead Ruth and reported it. He might have then become a suspect in the murder, or at least an accomplice after the fact. There are also missing items, which are unlikely that a scavenger (critter) would bother with, although an animal could certainly move the skull.

Oroblanco
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Re: The Legend of the Superstition Mountains

Postby Potbelly Jim » Thu May 14, 2015 12:45 am

Skulls are often carried away by vultures and dropped onto rocks to break them apart or at least create holes so the vulture can get to what is left inside. One missing person northwest of Four Peaks was found with out his skull and the skull was found years later about 20 miles away resting in the arm of a Saguaro Cactus.

Don, I have to say that makes the most sense of all the critter scenarios I've heard. Joe posted some pictures a long while back, some I'd never seen before. I never realized just how big that exit hole was (if it's a gunshot wound). I always thought the famous picture with Brownie holding Ruth's skull was showing the exit wound, it's not. That's the entrance wound. The exit wound is huge, and which is why I think a shotgun was put forward as a possible weapon.

The Phoenix city police were fairly certain that one of the men had murdered Ruth. The blood on the notebook is one clue. The one drifter that returned, brought a girlfriend with him, and she became frightened of him and talked to the police. She told them that he had bragged about killing Ruth and how he had Ruth's map, and would soon be rich.

Oro,
Do you happen to know which of the two got reported to the police by the girlfriend? I think I saw a death record on Purnell in Utah, but I'm not sure if it's "our" Purnell. Not that it matters, other than verifying his age at the time of the Ruth incident.

Can anyone give me the secret code to get the poster's name to come up in the quote block when quoting it? I have figured out the quote part, but not the part where the poster's name is displayed. It just says "Quote". I'm learning, at least I'm not taking 20 tries to figure out how to post pics anymore! Best regards, Jim

Best regards, Jim
Jim R.