Where to Find LDM Ore Samples

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Roger
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Where to Find LDM Ore Samples

Post by Roger »

T.E. Glover in his book, "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz", shows on a map (pages 302/303) the approximate locations where gold ore has been found in the Supers. He marks 10 locations with a "•" on his map and it does not show the more Northern area of the Supers where the Kochera and some other ores were found. I have kept a running map of a similar nature - trying to determine where the Spanish/Mexicans camped and what trails they were carrying ore over from these "gold ore find" locations. It leads to some interesting speculation.

I would offer a question to the Forum related to this topic:

"What specific location in the Supers would you go to if you wanted to find LDM ore using a metal detector and only doing surface sampling as allowed by the laws regulating the Wilderness area?"

I have three such locations and plan to do further research on them and then some field work on them. I will offer the more obvious one of them for starters here:

ORE SEARCH LOCATION: The Massacre Grounds - I would start with the specific location of the Massacre Grounds from Lt. Edwards info and then move Northward along the foot of Superstition Mtn. I have read one account of two men back in the 1950's (think this is right on the date) who spent portions of several winters searching this same area and they reportedly found enough gold ore from the Mexican mules to put their kids through college. This is a large area to search, but the probability might be fairly high to locate some LDM ore in the area.

I think all of us would like to have some LDM ore as a piece of the history of the LDM and the Supers. There has to be some locations in the Supers where one would have a good chance of finding it with a good metal detector as the Spanish/Mexicans mined the mountains for many years and ore had to be dropped, lost, etc across the areas they used.

Any other suggestions on where to hunt?

Roger
Bushrat
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Post by Bushrat »

I think the Massacre Grounds hold promise. A former hiking partner told me that while hiking the "Grounds" with a friend a couple of years ago the friend found a piece of quartz flecked with gold.

I did not receive elaborate information about this find but my friend is reliable and competent.

The thing to do would be to start at the location pinpointed in Glover's book and work out and about from there. There is a lot of ground to cover....more than meets the eye. And most of it is heavy brush.

I have personally hiked the area a half dozens times with a couple of well known local Dutch Hunters and they pointed to different locations as the massacre site. I'm not sue which would be correct but with a little luck and systematic search.... who knows?
LDM
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Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
sluicebox
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Post by sluicebox »

Rodger,

I was just recently discussing metal detecting the Masacre grounds with a fellow LDM enthusiast. He is moving out of state, but I may talk my brother in law into giving it a try in the next week or so. I'm wondering if anyone has an idea which route Edwards may have taken "eastward" back to the Marsh Valley area. From the location described by LDM, a south easterly route would take you through O'Grady Canyon, and a northeasterly route could take you through Parker Pass. It seems as though following that route might be productive as well. Any ideas on Edward's specific route? Regards, Larry
Joe Ribaudo
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Where To Look

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sluicebox,

I Believe I would stay out of O'Grady, but if you follow the wide valley that runs in an easterly direction from the Massacre Grounds, you will find that by staying on the right side towards the end, you will end up in West Boulder Canyon.

I have often thought about doing just what you are planing, and thought it would be interesting to check each of the ravines that run to the north and south side of the valley. Might be exciting to find some mule bones back in a little box canyon. It would be even more exciting to find an arrowhead in the ribs.

Needless to say, a pile of ore would not be bad either. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by Bushrat »

Mr. Roberts,

Thanks for the excellent post. Just so you know, you are held in high esteem around the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Museum and among the "Dutch Hunter" community.

I will soon take another walk to the Massacre Grounds but to the area you describe.

Thanks again.
Roger
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Sgt. William Edwards Trail of Massacre Bones

Post by Roger »

A quote from page 279/280 of Helen Corbin's book, The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz, taken from the diary of Sgt. William Edwards regarding his finding of the Massacre Grounds skeletons and backtracking them in 1866 or 1867:

"...Edwards continued to backtrack along the grisley trail and found more bits and pieces of the battle until finally he came upon a lightly worn trail that eventually led him down into a large canyon at a point where that canyon made a sharp bend and widened out considerably. Tall trees abounded in that area of the canyon, Cottonwood, Sycamore, and Aspen grew tall there, several springs flowed from the west side of the canyon at it's bend and the canyon bottom was covered in tall grass four to six feet in height. The canyon seemed an oasis in the wilderness to Edwards. Just up out of the west side of the canyon was a flat area with a large stand of Mesquite. On that flat Edwards discovered the remains of a large encampment. Everything in the camp had been destroyed or torn up. It was the unmistakeable work of the Apaches. The camp had obviously been the Mexican base of operations in the area. A closer examination of the camp and surrounding area turned up broken mining equipment and tools as well as the grisly spectacle of more skeletal remains...."

Edwards describes Marsh Valley in La Barge Canyon clearly with its flowing springs on the west side and the large Mexican camp up higher on the west side also. So his trailing of the running battle goes from the Massacre Grounds to Marsh Valley.

Now, draw a straight line on your Superstition Wilderness Map from the Massacre Grounds to Marsh Valley. The modern trails on the map today between these two points represent the most accessable pathway between these two points as follows:

1. Edwards could have caught Trail 104 just to the East of the Massacre Grounds, gone thru Parker Pass, across the North end of Palamino Mtn and down its East side, across the South side of Black Top Mesa, and then NE to Marsh Valley.

2. One deviation from path 1 would be taking Trail 129 off of Trail 104 thru Bull Pass and across the North end of Black Top Mesa and then down into Marsh Valley. Based on where the Mexican camp was located in Marsh Valley, Trail 129 would have been a shorter route with less high ground for the Apaches to get on and shoot at them from above.

Don't expect to find LDM Ore in the middle of the trail, but these two routes in general are the most probable ones that Edwards could have backtracked across knowing his starting and ending points.

Happy Hunting!!

Roger
sluicebox
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Post by sluicebox »

In Glover's book on page 76 he has a picture of what is referred to as "Valley of the Bones". Does anyone know where this location is? Thanks, Larry
buscar
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Tunnel

Post by buscar »

Below a prehistoric Indian dwelling on the west side of Superstition Mountain at the Massacre Grounds, is a tunnel said to have been dug by Carl A. Silverlocke, also known as Silverlock and Carl Malm, also known as Goldlock. This took place from 1901 through 1917 (depending on the source) hoping to find the source of the gold ore they had found.

The tunnel can be seen at Member Archive.

buscar :)
Joe Ribaudo
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Fast

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Buscar,

That was a mighty fast edit. I was just getting ready to make a comment.
:lol:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

Sluice

The Valley of the Bones is directly SW of the saddle that you will come upon if you follow the trail that LDM described up from the parking lot. This trail
tops out at that saddle (which is to the east of Massacre Peak that LDM describes as a pinnacle) and then drops down into the Valley of the Bones.
Across from this saddle and on the other side of the little valley is a hill where the Mexicans likely made their last stand...the remnants finally breaking and making a panicky retreat towards the desert and there meeting their fate near those boulders. Similar to what happened at the last on Custer Ridge I imagine.

If any of you fellows want to make a day out of mucking about up there looking for samples, I wouldnt mind joining you. I could point out a couple of things to folks who are interested in the history of the place.

Let me know.

Peter
Joe Ribaudo
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An Outing?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sluicebox,

If the timing is right, I would also make that hike.

I thought it might be a great group outing for the Rendezvous. If we can talk Peter into making it, he could still give a talk on the history of the site.

It would be interesting to see a lot of ground up there, covered in a short time with a number of metal detectors.

Respectfully,

Joe
sluicebox
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Post by sluicebox »

TGH

Mucking around and getting a history lesson sounds great to me. My email address is "[email protected]" give me a couple of days heads up and I can usually schedule myself a day off. Weekends are usually good too. I have a slow day tomorrow and was planning on going out to at least find the right spot and get familiar with the area. I'm game for an adventure almost anytime, just drop me a line.

Joe

I also think that would be a great idea for a LDR group event. It would sure make it easier to cover more ground with a hord of guys. It would be great to find a real piece of Superstition Mountain history that everyone could toss around the camp fire. Regards. Larry
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Post by Bushrat »

Joe,

I agree, the Massacre area would make a perfect group hike although the Forest Service 15 person limit may apply in some areas. But will they challenge a large group of Dutch Hunters and risk a second massacre site?. (For the record, I say this in jest).

This may also be a good time to ask permission to attend the next campout.......

Regards!
Joe Ribaudo
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Rendezvous

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bushrat,

You are, of course, welcome to attend the Rendezvous. At this point, I am of the opinion that known trouble makers will not bother to show up.
I am pretty sure we will have a small fee this time, to help cut down on the no-shows. While many people had good reasons for not making our last event, others just blew it off.

Makes no difference to me, how many show up. Our small turnout last year was to everyone's advantage. We got to know some new friends and exchanged a lot of information. I would just prefer not to waste my own money on people who do not honor their commitments.

Hope to see you there.

Respectfully,

Joe
Roger
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LDM Ore Hunting @ Massacre Grounds

Post by Roger »

Joe, Bushrat, TGH, Larry:

That's an excellent idea to make a group search the focus of the next Lost Dutchman Rendezvous this fall. If we get enough of us hunting with/without metal detectors, there is a good chance that some LDM ore will be found. If there is a limitation of 15 on groups going into the Wilderness, we could break up into groups this size and focus on different areas around the Massacre Grounds. We wouldn't be hurting for enough ground to search!! Ha

I might also offer that this would be an excellent opportunity for a larger number of LDM Forum members to get to meet each other and share the LDM legends/info. I suggest we see if Dr. Glover can join us at least for at least an evening around the campfire as the location will be easy to get to. I would be willing to contact Ron Feldman and Tom Kollenborn to see if they might attend and evening meal. I also hope that Greg Davis, Jack Carlson, Jack San Felice, and others from last year will be able to make it again also.

This year's LDR could be a super event!!

Roger
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Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
sluicebox
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Post by sluicebox »

Just a note for anyone who is interested in a trip to the massacre grounds. Peter and I have posponed our trip there until next Sunday. Peter introduced me to the idea of hiking in after a rain to store water, so today became a water storage day instead of the massacre grounds hike. We also thought that postponing the trip would give other forum members who wanted to make the trip a chance to plan on coming along. If anyone else is interested, just leave a PM.

If you can't make it Sunday and are going solo another time, the GPS readings I took last Friday will get you to the two boulders pictured in Dr Glover's book. That would be N33 27.512, W111 27.410. Regards, Larry
Roger
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Spanish Camp Near Massacre Grounds

Post by Roger »

Bob Ward had a map that went with his book, "True Story of Superstition Montains - Ripples of Lost Echo's", that detailed a number of the locations that he discussed in the book. Southeast of Parker Pass, he marks on the map an area titled "Vicinity of Gold Bars from "The Tracy Hawkins Story"". It is interesting that gold bars would have been found fairly close to the Spanish Camp south of the Massacre Grounds.

I also have on file an old map made by Charles Frederick Higham that shows a cave on the East side of Superstition Mtn proper where he notes "Cave where tools and wheelbarrow were found". This again is in the approximate location of the Spanish Camp near the Massacre Grounds. Higham also shows a "Old Shaft" some what South of the cave area on Superstition Mtn.

It would appear that there had been some Spanish/Mexican mining activity in the area - either as a camp and/or mining itself.

Roger
Joe Ribaudo
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Map?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

I have Bob Ward's book, and did not see the map you mentioned. Am I missing something?

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Many Thanks

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Matthew,

Thank's for the reply. You were one of three that got back to me.

I never really got past Ward's book. Set it down and did not pick it up again for many years. I suppose my uncle knew him, but don't remember him mentioning the man.

Ernie Provence and Tracy Hawkins knew him, I believe, pretty well and Bob did mention a number of Chuk's partners and friends in his book. That leaves me with the impression that there may have been some kind of friction between them.

Hope you are back from your exile in California. Just before Chuck died, he told my dad: "California has never been good to us". While a number of really good things happened to me in California, such as meeting and marrying Carolyn, it is a place I was always glad to leave. Don't really like going back, even at Christmas. Tradition!

If you are home, it would be an honor to have you make it to the Rendezvous this year. I am also hoping that Peter and Wiz will leave the harsh words of the past behind them and look to the future. Those who know me, know that I am sincere in this.

Thanks again.

Take care,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bill711
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Superstition mountain

Post by bill711 »

I read in one of the many stories where an old man claimed that he was traveling thru to cal in 1911 on a bus and they took a lunch break he went walking and found the log foundation of an adit on the lower slopes on the sup. mountain. SO the pareltas sunk alot of shafts weather they found anything or not. Who knows??? Bill 8) It was covered and he just saw the corner logs.
buscar
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Map

Post by buscar »

Joe,

The map Roger talks about is a brown 19"x25" foldout entitled Superstition Mountains.

On the right side of the map is a list explaining the locations that are numbered 1-55 on the map.

Here is the list:

Johnson Cave, Mel’s Cave, Palomino Mountain, Black Top Mountain, Black Top Cave, Where Adolph Ruth Was Found, Petroglyphs, Chuck Aylor’s Camp Site, Piper Spring, Celeste Jones’ Camp Site, Piñon Camp, Fremont Pass, Al Morrow’s Camp Site, John Pierce Camp Site, James Cravey Was Found, Petroglyphs, Siphon Draw, Monument Pass, Hog Canyon, Hieroglyphic Canyon, Ed Piper’s Gold Cross Found, Boulder Where Dutchman Hid Partner’s Equipment, Rattlesnake Ridge, Approximate Location Of Peralta’s Four Directional Saguaro Marker, Ed Piper’s Peralta Cathedral (below Is 300 Year Old Oak Tree), Three Red Hill (First Location), Three Red Hill (second Location), White rock, Dick Walter’s Deer Camp (Site Of Where Hawahan Murder Took Place), Javalina Hill, Herman’s Camp, Piper-St. Marie Shoot-Out, Torcherous Horseback Trail, Deserama Water Hole, Burial Site Of Calvary Soldier Found Shot Near Castle Rock, Cave With Indian Child Skeleton (Now Caved In), Horse Head Marker, Grotto (Where Dutchman Tried To Raise A Garden), Peralta Saguaro Marker Site (Now Destroyed), Old Spanish Trough, Area Of Triangle Of Rocks, Arrow’s Eye, Spanish Workings, Weird Stone Structure, Rose Quartz Mines, Alpha-Omega Hill, Peralta Trailhead, First Water Trailhead, Cactus Gardens, Battleship Mountain, Soldier’s Camp, Old Cave Indian Dwelling, Bambi’s Roost, Appearance Of Weird Light, Appearance Of The She Thing, Also Entrance To Trail To Top Of Bluff Spring Mountain.

The map shows the Vicinity Of The De Grazia Treasure Of Hidden Paintings, Vicinity Of Lost Dutchman Mine, Vicinity Of Gold Bars From The “Tracy Hawkins’ Story.”

Address on the map

Superstition Territory
P.O. Box 1510
Apache Junction, AZ 85217

buscar :)
Last edited by buscar on Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Roger
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Bob Ward "Superstiion Mountains" Map

Post by Roger »

I purchased Bob Ward's "Superstition Mountains" map in the early 1990's in Apache Junction when it was still on public sale. As I noted above, it is a companion to Bob's book as it locates in general the places he talks about in the book. It doesn't have a copyright or date on it - only a mailing address and Bob's name is not on it either. The mailing address is probably defunk since Bob is gone. The map is 25"x19" and marks the locations that Buscar detailed in his posting above. The paper stock is a medium brown.

Roger
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