Unanswered questions
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Thomas Glover
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Unanswered questions
Among the remaining unanswered questions about Waltz, the mine, the people, the history, etc. which do you think are the most interesting or significant?
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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?
Thomas,
The biggest question on the mine, for me, would be: Has the mine been found and if not, why?
Many have claimed to have found it, but the proof that it was the LDM has never been sufficient to remove all doubt.
There is a plethora of clues, and no single place in the mountains that has not been searched.....many times.
Did the Two Soldiers and Joe Deering actually find Waltz's mine by accident? Did John Chunning find it by design? Is it possible that Adolph Ruth also found the mine using maps and clues?
If they did, it seems obvious that modern-day Dutch Hunters should be able to solve the mystery. They have the best (accumulated) information
for any lost mine in existence.
Is there too much information? That seems likely, and yet the answer must be within those many clues. Just need to pick the right ones.
Welcome home.
Respectfully,
Joe
The biggest question on the mine, for me, would be: Has the mine been found and if not, why?
Many have claimed to have found it, but the proof that it was the LDM has never been sufficient to remove all doubt.
There is a plethora of clues, and no single place in the mountains that has not been searched.....many times.
Did the Two Soldiers and Joe Deering actually find Waltz's mine by accident? Did John Chunning find it by design? Is it possible that Adolph Ruth also found the mine using maps and clues?
If they did, it seems obvious that modern-day Dutch Hunters should be able to solve the mystery. They have the best (accumulated) information
for any lost mine in existence.
Is there too much information? That seems likely, and yet the answer must be within those many clues. Just need to pick the right ones.
Welcome home.
Respectfully,
Joe
Thomas, Joe,
I also think finding "the" LDM would be the best thing since the invention of peanut butter and jelly. (Maybe that's why the bees like me). However, as Joe alluded to , there is probably too much information for that to ever become a reality. Anyone can go out and find a hole somewhere in the Sups, sort through the "clues", find a few that match, and declare that they have found "it."
I still consider myself a newcomer, but from exposure to this forum, book theory, and personal conversations with other Dutch hunters, I suspect that there is not a universally agreed upon set of clues that would satisfy a "majority" of LDM hunters. Unless some earth shattering new evidence is forthcoming AND MADE PUBLIC, this is not likely to change. I am not even sure at this point what criteria I would personally accept as "sufficient to remove all doubt."
There seems to be a lot of talk lately about LDM "mines". This seems to me to complicate the issue even more unless one of those is considered "the" mine. Even so, the burden of proof positive, still remains. Whthout Waltz himself here to do the confirmation, proof (accepted by a majority) is not likely to be forthcoming. Still, the legand, the history and the mystery keep us searching in the belief that there is "something" out there in those mountains not yet found. So to finally get around to answering the original question, the most significant and unanswered question for me is the one that will likely remain unanswered. It's the one that keeps us going back one more time searching for our own personal mystery, and our own personal proofs. Regards, Larry
I also think finding "the" LDM would be the best thing since the invention of peanut butter and jelly. (Maybe that's why the bees like me). However, as Joe alluded to , there is probably too much information for that to ever become a reality. Anyone can go out and find a hole somewhere in the Sups, sort through the "clues", find a few that match, and declare that they have found "it."
I still consider myself a newcomer, but from exposure to this forum, book theory, and personal conversations with other Dutch hunters, I suspect that there is not a universally agreed upon set of clues that would satisfy a "majority" of LDM hunters. Unless some earth shattering new evidence is forthcoming AND MADE PUBLIC, this is not likely to change. I am not even sure at this point what criteria I would personally accept as "sufficient to remove all doubt."
There seems to be a lot of talk lately about LDM "mines". This seems to me to complicate the issue even more unless one of those is considered "the" mine. Even so, the burden of proof positive, still remains. Whthout Waltz himself here to do the confirmation, proof (accepted by a majority) is not likely to be forthcoming. Still, the legand, the history and the mystery keep us searching in the belief that there is "something" out there in those mountains not yet found. So to finally get around to answering the original question, the most significant and unanswered question for me is the one that will likely remain unanswered. It's the one that keeps us going back one more time searching for our own personal mystery, and our own personal proofs. Regards, Larry
unanswered questions
To me, two things come to mind. First of all, Adolph Ruth, I don't think there is much question that he had a legitimate map. But did he find something? Glen Magill used one of the Ruth maps and found what appears to be a very similar location to many of the descriptions of the Lost Dutchman, but no gold. Could be the mine was worked out.
Secondly, Tex Barclay and Walt Gassler, Tex had more first hand experience in the Superstitions than most anyone and, I am sure, had his own area of interest. Gassler says that Tex moved Ruth’s body to keep crowds from chasing off his cattle. I don’t buy that. I think he was in Tex’s area of interest and he wanted to keep everyone out. There are so many unsolved questions regarding Ruth, his maps, his death, where was he looking, did he find anything before he died, it goes on and on…..
Secondly, Tex Barclay and Walt Gassler, Tex had more first hand experience in the Superstitions than most anyone and, I am sure, had his own area of interest. Gassler says that Tex moved Ruth’s body to keep crowds from chasing off his cattle. I don’t buy that. I think he was in Tex’s area of interest and he wanted to keep everyone out. There are so many unsolved questions regarding Ruth, his maps, his death, where was he looking, did he find anything before he died, it goes on and on…..
murphy
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Joe Ribaudo
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More Questions
Murphy,
Nice post.
Seems to me that the real question in there, is not whether Ruth found "anything", but what was Tex's area of interest? Not the "public" area of interest, but the real one.
Does that qualify as an "Unanswered question"?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Nice post.
Seems to me that the real question in there, is not whether Ruth found "anything", but what was Tex's area of interest? Not the "public" area of interest, but the real one.
Does that qualify as an "Unanswered question"?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
3 questions
Well I didn,t read nor hear of the TEX dying rich and fat? So I assume he didn,t find........ it... bill 
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woodreau71
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- Location: redding. ca
Dr Glover,
Glad to see you are posting again.
I next to never post but tune in at least twice a week to read up. I guess I never thought about having to justify finding the ldm as both Joe and sluicebox have implied. From a newbys point of view and apparently a very naive one as well, I assumed when you found it you would know as would anyone else. Then after the gold was counted so to speak and all the hype had died down one could look for all the clues from the end back to the beginning and things would sort themselves out. If that isnt the case since there is sure to not be an "x" that would mark the spot and old "Jake" isnt here to verify that yes someone at last found it. And owing to sluiceboxe's post that one can find a hole in the ground and the clues could match just about anywhere in the mountains- then I guess the LDM can never be found.?
I guess the only x factor is the gold itself. If a huge quantity of gold was found in the Supes then most likely one would assume that it in fact was the dutchman. Having said all that, Sluicebox you made the most truthful statement I have read and that is that there is not a universally agreed upon set of clues that would satisfy a majority of ldm hunters.
thanks Woodreau71
Glad to see you are posting again.
I next to never post but tune in at least twice a week to read up. I guess I never thought about having to justify finding the ldm as both Joe and sluicebox have implied. From a newbys point of view and apparently a very naive one as well, I assumed when you found it you would know as would anyone else. Then after the gold was counted so to speak and all the hype had died down one could look for all the clues from the end back to the beginning and things would sort themselves out. If that isnt the case since there is sure to not be an "x" that would mark the spot and old "Jake" isnt here to verify that yes someone at last found it. And owing to sluiceboxe's post that one can find a hole in the ground and the clues could match just about anywhere in the mountains- then I guess the LDM can never be found.?
I guess the only x factor is the gold itself. If a huge quantity of gold was found in the Supes then most likely one would assume that it in fact was the dutchman. Having said all that, Sluicebox you made the most truthful statement I have read and that is that there is not a universally agreed upon set of clues that would satisfy a majority of ldm hunters.
thanks Woodreau71
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Joe Ribaudo
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LDM Proof
Woodreau,
I don't believe "justify" is correct in this case. If the LDM is ever actually found, and the gold is still there, chances are there will be little doubt. If there is no gold, it may be a little dicey.
There are really only a few clues, IMHO, that apply to the LDM. The rest is misinformation, with a purpose. Tex's area of interest might be some "misinformation". There are some clues as to where he really believed the LDM might be.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I don't believe "justify" is correct in this case. If the LDM is ever actually found, and the gold is still there, chances are there will be little doubt. If there is no gold, it may be a little dicey.
There are really only a few clues, IMHO, that apply to the LDM. The rest is misinformation, with a purpose. Tex's area of interest might be some "misinformation". There are some clues as to where he really believed the LDM might be.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
More Tex
Bill,
Knowing the area and finding the mine are two different things. If the area was Bluff Spring Mountain, you would have a pretty good chance of finding the mine.
If the area was all of the range north of Bluff Spring Mountain, your chances would be slim.
If Ruth knew he was going to be killed, it seems likely he would send his killer on a wild goose chase. Might as well have the last laugh.
The real question here is, if Tex moved the body to protect the "area of interest", where did he move it from?
Respectfully,
Joe
Knowing the area and finding the mine are two different things. If the area was Bluff Spring Mountain, you would have a pretty good chance of finding the mine.
If the area was all of the range north of Bluff Spring Mountain, your chances would be slim.
If Ruth knew he was going to be killed, it seems likely he would send his killer on a wild goose chase. Might as well have the last laugh.
The real question here is, if Tex moved the body to protect the "area of interest", where did he move it from?
Respectfully,
Joe
The possible answer to Joe’s question
The possible answer to Joe’s question is found in Walter Gassler’s 1983 manuscript The Lost Peralta-Dutchman Mine. (1990 copy of original Superstition Mountain Society)
"The real question here is, if Tex moved the body to protect the "area of interest", where did he move it from?"
Page 19-20
“He told me he actually tracked Ruth to that grove of trees and found him there dead. He claimed him and one of his cow-hands (whose name I will not mention here he probably passed on too by now) wrapped the body in a tarp and burlap and transported it over to the top of Black Top. Of course, I did not believe him. I asked him why and he said he had to because if people found out about him finding Ruth up at Peters Mesa, there would have been a stamped of humanity and gold seekers that his cattle would have been scattered from here to kingdom come and most of his large cowhead was back there and further more, Ruth was dead. He also said he had the party with Brownie Holmes up to near the spot where he knew they would not miss the body. He sent them up there while he told them he would take the opposite side. He waited for their signal which he knew would come and it did so this is one story which I did not want to believe but after many years looking it over, I remembered something else he said at that time and it had slipped my mind as unimportant. I remember him telling me Ruth must have gotten tired and sat on a protruding rock right at the upper edge of the tree grove and slightly to the left and above the 3 boulders. I sat there many a time drinking coffee and resting while I camped at the grove. The rock has since dissintegrated and is no more. I guess it was granite and quartz and probably pulverized in all this time. I looked for it the last time I was up there, and all I found was small rocks. Anyhow, Tex said he probable had his map out and his note book and when his guide told him to get going, he refused. Realizing that the end of his life was near, the guide Tex insists then put the gun on the side of his temple and either demand the map or told him again to move. He also knew that Ruth realized by now how the wind was blowing and pulled the trigger. Tex claimed the force of the shot was so great the body did not fall forward but went sideways, because the gun must have been right against his temple when the trigger was pulled so Barkeley found him laying side ways. That was what I had forgotten and then while I was living in Crossville, Tenn., and went over my notes, I recalled and realized that Tex indeed must have found him soon after he was shot but where, it also could have been somewhere else.”
Page 21
I told Tex this is my last go see, I would quit for good before it got me. He said wait a minute Walter, I show you positive proof that the mine is back there, He turned around and walked off toward the shack and I could see the way he walked the determination and the way he acted that it was something very important and very close to him that he must have held secret for a long time, guess he acted kind of desperate. He stepped on the veranda and as he did, his son Bill and Brownie Holmes came around the house. I guess they had been down at the smithy drinking they were already that early in the morning…..loaded and Tex saw them, made a abrupt turn about, came back to me and said, Walt, I show you some other time, I can’t while these two are around. That was the last time I ever saw good old Tex, I have so may memories of him, I will disclose some other time.”
Go to the top of the forum click HOME then click Member Archive click buscar and you will see the three-teepee or sombrero boulders Walter Gassler was talking about. This is also the area Gassler claimed Tex found Ruth’s body.
buscar
"The real question here is, if Tex moved the body to protect the "area of interest", where did he move it from?"
Page 19-20
“He told me he actually tracked Ruth to that grove of trees and found him there dead. He claimed him and one of his cow-hands (whose name I will not mention here he probably passed on too by now) wrapped the body in a tarp and burlap and transported it over to the top of Black Top. Of course, I did not believe him. I asked him why and he said he had to because if people found out about him finding Ruth up at Peters Mesa, there would have been a stamped of humanity and gold seekers that his cattle would have been scattered from here to kingdom come and most of his large cowhead was back there and further more, Ruth was dead. He also said he had the party with Brownie Holmes up to near the spot where he knew they would not miss the body. He sent them up there while he told them he would take the opposite side. He waited for their signal which he knew would come and it did so this is one story which I did not want to believe but after many years looking it over, I remembered something else he said at that time and it had slipped my mind as unimportant. I remember him telling me Ruth must have gotten tired and sat on a protruding rock right at the upper edge of the tree grove and slightly to the left and above the 3 boulders. I sat there many a time drinking coffee and resting while I camped at the grove. The rock has since dissintegrated and is no more. I guess it was granite and quartz and probably pulverized in all this time. I looked for it the last time I was up there, and all I found was small rocks. Anyhow, Tex said he probable had his map out and his note book and when his guide told him to get going, he refused. Realizing that the end of his life was near, the guide Tex insists then put the gun on the side of his temple and either demand the map or told him again to move. He also knew that Ruth realized by now how the wind was blowing and pulled the trigger. Tex claimed the force of the shot was so great the body did not fall forward but went sideways, because the gun must have been right against his temple when the trigger was pulled so Barkeley found him laying side ways. That was what I had forgotten and then while I was living in Crossville, Tenn., and went over my notes, I recalled and realized that Tex indeed must have found him soon after he was shot but where, it also could have been somewhere else.”
Page 21
I told Tex this is my last go see, I would quit for good before it got me. He said wait a minute Walter, I show you positive proof that the mine is back there, He turned around and walked off toward the shack and I could see the way he walked the determination and the way he acted that it was something very important and very close to him that he must have held secret for a long time, guess he acted kind of desperate. He stepped on the veranda and as he did, his son Bill and Brownie Holmes came around the house. I guess they had been down at the smithy drinking they were already that early in the morning…..loaded and Tex saw them, made a abrupt turn about, came back to me and said, Walt, I show you some other time, I can’t while these two are around. That was the last time I ever saw good old Tex, I have so may memories of him, I will disclose some other time.”
Go to the top of the forum click HOME then click Member Archive click buscar and you will see the three-teepee or sombrero boulders Walter Gassler was talking about. This is also the area Gassler claimed Tex found Ruth’s body.
buscar
Unanswered questions
Dr. Glover
Good to see you posting again. Just would like to say how much I enjoyed reading both of your books.
For me the most importent unanswered question regarding the LDM,(Mine) goes to the ore analysis you presented in your first book. If I am understanding your work correctly you are indicating that the quartz crystallization temperature of the Jewelry, Camp, Kochera, and Vulture ores were mesothermal in nature because the quartz crystalized out of a solution at a temperature in excess of 200c. I believe you are not saying the ore deposits are mesothermal, epithermal or hypothermal, only that the quartz crystallized at what you refer to as a mesothermal temperature.
Given this and since quartz crystallization temperatures between 200c and 300c are commen in both epithermal and mesothermal systems what does the ore analysis suggest to you is the type of deposit we are dealing with. A epithermal deposit or mesothermal deposit. I assume out of hand we are not dealing with a hypothermal system.
My major interest would be to to hear your opinion on the Jewelry ore and Camp ore. Believe the Kochera ore is really not relevent.
Obviously I am not asking you to reveal specifics regarding the two ore samples unless you would like to, just in general what do the samples tell us.
I was also reading you have spent time at our campus here at the University of Nevada Reno. I must admit I spend far too much time in the Mackay School of Mines Museum. First Class to say the least.
Regards
Late49er
Good to see you posting again. Just would like to say how much I enjoyed reading both of your books.
For me the most importent unanswered question regarding the LDM,(Mine) goes to the ore analysis you presented in your first book. If I am understanding your work correctly you are indicating that the quartz crystallization temperature of the Jewelry, Camp, Kochera, and Vulture ores were mesothermal in nature because the quartz crystalized out of a solution at a temperature in excess of 200c. I believe you are not saying the ore deposits are mesothermal, epithermal or hypothermal, only that the quartz crystallized at what you refer to as a mesothermal temperature.
Given this and since quartz crystallization temperatures between 200c and 300c are commen in both epithermal and mesothermal systems what does the ore analysis suggest to you is the type of deposit we are dealing with. A epithermal deposit or mesothermal deposit. I assume out of hand we are not dealing with a hypothermal system.
My major interest would be to to hear your opinion on the Jewelry ore and Camp ore. Believe the Kochera ore is really not relevent.
Obviously I am not asking you to reveal specifics regarding the two ore samples unless you would like to, just in general what do the samples tell us.
I was also reading you have spent time at our campus here at the University of Nevada Reno. I must admit I spend far too much time in the Mackay School of Mines Museum. First Class to say the least.
Regards
Late49er
Unanswered questions
To me the main unanswered question is why whenever significant clues seem to be found, no one else can verify that they really were found? Clues that couldn't easily go away:
The rock that looks like a man.
The cave with a house in it.
The tunnel on the side of Bluff Spring Mtn.
The cactus with the rocks.
The cave with gold bars.
The monuments on the ridgeline.
After awhile it makes you wonder if any of the old searchers really found anything.
The rock that looks like a man.
The cave with a house in it.
The tunnel on the side of Bluff Spring Mtn.
The cactus with the rocks.
The cave with gold bars.
The monuments on the ridgeline.
After awhile it makes you wonder if any of the old searchers really found anything.
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Lost And Found
AC,
Most of those things have been found.
Did I ever find those monuments? I flew fifty feet, and closer, off the top of that ridge trying to relocate those monuments. Took hundreds of pictures. The pilot had no interest in the Superstitions but I suppose I could have been trying to convince myself that they existed. My brother, who is not a Dutch Hunter, was with me when they were found, and would verify that we did find them.
I do have a picture of the heart, the trail to the heart, the triangle and the circle in a circle. Should have taken a picture of those damn monuments.
No reason for anyone to believe me, unless they know me.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Most of those things have been found.
Did I ever find those monuments? I flew fifty feet, and closer, off the top of that ridge trying to relocate those monuments. Took hundreds of pictures. The pilot had no interest in the Superstitions but I suppose I could have been trying to convince myself that they existed. My brother, who is not a Dutch Hunter, was with me when they were found, and would verify that we did find them.
I do have a picture of the heart, the trail to the heart, the triangle and the circle in a circle. Should have taken a picture of those damn monuments.
No reason for anyone to believe me, unless they know me.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Joe,
I am not questioning that these things were found. I'm questioning why they can't be found again. Is it all deliberate destruction? Is it that people are loathe to admit that someone else found a major clue? Are they so hard to find that everyone else is walking (climbing) right past them. Take your monuments, you once indicated (my interpretation) that the way they were built they would be hard to spot from the air, but for such a major find why doesn't it seem that anyone else has even tried to find them??? I thought your picture of the heart was great, I just hope someone is not beating on it with a sledgehammer as we converse.
I am not questioning that these things were found. I'm questioning why they can't be found again. Is it all deliberate destruction? Is it that people are loathe to admit that someone else found a major clue? Are they so hard to find that everyone else is walking (climbing) right past them. Take your monuments, you once indicated (my interpretation) that the way they were built they would be hard to spot from the air, but for such a major find why doesn't it seem that anyone else has even tried to find them??? I thought your picture of the heart was great, I just hope someone is not beating on it with a sledgehammer as we converse.
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Breaking My Heart
AC,
Anything is possible, but I walked past that heart for a number of years before I spotted it. Not that many people searching my area. I knew the trail would be where it was, just never looked for it. I knew I was at the end of the Stone Map trail, so why search for more confirmation?
I have kicked myself many times for not going back to those monuments right away. After all.....they had been there for a long time, where would they go?
Actually, from the way they were built, I feel they would be easier to spot than the standard monuments you find. I don't know that no one else has tried to find them. I assume someone did that very thing and destroyed them.
Respectfully,
Joe
Anything is possible, but I walked past that heart for a number of years before I spotted it. Not that many people searching my area. I knew the trail would be where it was, just never looked for it. I knew I was at the end of the Stone Map trail, so why search for more confirmation?
I have kicked myself many times for not going back to those monuments right away. After all.....they had been there for a long time, where would they go?
Actually, from the way they were built, I feel they would be easier to spot than the standard monuments you find. I don't know that no one else has tried to find them. I assume someone did that very thing and destroyed them.
Respectfully,
Joe
To me it always comes down to 2 things.
1) The events of Walts last 24 hours. It plays out like a shakespearean tragedy. Lost sketches and notes, death bed confession and contradictory stories and statements. None of the principles gave us a first hand account. We are interpreting others interpretations from the beginning. Were petrasches sketches drawn by Waltz? Were the just to locate the base camp? What would Gideon Roberts version of the deathbed confession be? Dick Holmes version ?
2) Tex Barkley. In typical fashion he would tell Gassler something that he wouldn't relate to Bill or Brownie. I believe this to be true and shows how little we know of possibly the one person who not only had the best information first and secondhand, but was able to not only search but follow up searches and let others make the mistakes and see where they went wrong. People trusted him and he was a hub for all the spokes in the wheel. But Barkley seemed to give away nothing in information unless there was a purpose. Barkley similar to Waltz never seems to have the desire to live a life of luxury. The old cowboys I knew who worked in those days were similar. They lived pretty simply, though 2 were quite well off and could of done much better. Tex Barkley to me is an enigma. Each person I have met that knew or met him and each book I have read gave almost to the letter the same opinion of him.
1) The events of Walts last 24 hours. It plays out like a shakespearean tragedy. Lost sketches and notes, death bed confession and contradictory stories and statements. None of the principles gave us a first hand account. We are interpreting others interpretations from the beginning. Were petrasches sketches drawn by Waltz? Were the just to locate the base camp? What would Gideon Roberts version of the deathbed confession be? Dick Holmes version ?
2) Tex Barkley. In typical fashion he would tell Gassler something that he wouldn't relate to Bill or Brownie. I believe this to be true and shows how little we know of possibly the one person who not only had the best information first and secondhand, but was able to not only search but follow up searches and let others make the mistakes and see where they went wrong. People trusted him and he was a hub for all the spokes in the wheel. But Barkley seemed to give away nothing in information unless there was a purpose. Barkley similar to Waltz never seems to have the desire to live a life of luxury. The old cowboys I knew who worked in those days were similar. They lived pretty simply, though 2 were quite well off and could of done much better. Tex Barkley to me is an enigma. Each person I have met that knew or met him and each book I have read gave almost to the letter the same opinion of him.