The Caves of the LDM

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
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Tall Miles

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

That's reasonable and we have discussed it before. Don't know if I buy it, but it's reasonable. It's really hard for us to understand how the people from that era guaged distance. For the most part, I believe they used time required to travel from point "A" to point "B".

All things considered, they had it down to a fairly accurate science. If you read Bourke's diaries, you will be amazed just how accurate they could be. They knew how far it was from Prescott to Flagstaff, on a map, and they knew how long it would take to make the trip. That would require some pretty good changes in elevation. They knew how far it was from Phoenix to Goldfield, on a map, and knew how long it took to walk, ride a horse or wagon.......

I am working from memory here, but what about the 3-4 miles he talked about from the Salt? Same "elevation change" theory? What you say makes sense today, just don't know how much sense it would make back then, at least for someone used to traveling through rough country.

Is it important? I would say both theories need to be looked at. I believe you have looked at the seven mile map distance, and may be looking at the shorter distance theory now. Just a guess from what you have said but I can't imagine you have changed to another location that is not on the original line. That would be.......life changing. 8O

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
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Post by TGH »

This is starting to bug me. Rogers quote about the Deering "hole" is the following:

2. "John (Chunning - my note), there is a trick on that trail. Oh it is no trick either, but you have to go through a cave or hole, and say John, it is high up and yet you got to go down to it." (Page 102)


What can we glean from the above?

1) He says "that" trail, rather then "the" trail..almost as if there were more than one.

2) Goes on to say that it is no trick, but that one has to go through a "cave or a hole". There is no doubt in my mind that the original statement by Deering DID NOT mention a cave. The cave reference was inserted by Bark at a later date. The Bark Notes are consistent in the fact that Bark plays up a "secret" cave at every opportunity.

3) "It is high up, yet you have to go down to it." What is "it"?What is he talking about here? The Trick? (hole)? The tunnel? The workings? As the workings were obviously above the tunnel it seems safe to say that he meant either the Trick (hole) or the tunnel itself. I'd wager on the latter if I had to choose.

Here's another thought. Just how high up is the tunnel off of the canyon floor and how high above the tunnel are the workings? 10 yards? 50? 100? On the ground examination of the way the families involved in mining the area worked indicate to me that they would be rather close together.....the caveat being the terrain they were mining in and the practicallity of tunnelling a cross-cut below the working.

P
Joe Ribaudo
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What If?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Parts of today are a little slow, so I obviously have some time on my hands.

What if John Chunning made up the part of the story where he and Deering were going to become partners? Not the first, or last time someone will blow-up their importance to a story. 8O

Deering tells him a pretty good portion of what happened to him, and how he came by the ore, but never really told him all of those details?
Chunning or Bark then put a little meat on the bones to make the story interesting, and give the location a "place"....just not to close to where they believe the mine actually is. Both men knew enough about the range, to make it "real".

Both the Deering, and Two Soldiers" stories make it seem fairly simple.
Find the right trail.....follow it to the gold. There is no trail, as described, in the Superstitions that has not been followed from one end to the other, and back again, many times. Were there side trails? Of course and they have all been followed by someone. In every case, I believe, by many "someones". There were people who lived in there for years, and searched the entire time. While the last trail I found was new to me, and unknown to any of the old timers I know, there is no doubt it has been walked many times over the years.

There is "no doubt" that there should be a little doubt about any statement that was said to have been made over a hundred years ago.

On the other hand, you could know someone, who knew someone, who was there.

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Joe

What you say is plausible. Hell, maybe Bark even made up (embellished?) most of the Deering story, (or took some of Chunnings clues and fit them into an area he was familiar with) even planting stone markers and willow trees with "Xs" carved into them in order to throw folks off the trail. Anyone could make up the location of a hidden mine using landmarks known to them.

Well, what about the Pankin info as it relates to the Deering/Soldiers tales?
Pankin himself thought the mine was in the vicinity of Coffee Flat Mtn, not "5 miles further west" as Bark and Ely said.

Anything is possible.

But in this case, I doubt it.

P
Joe Ribaudo
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Das Ghost

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

I have tried to find some record of Mr. Pankin, without success. It would seem he was a ghost. Pankin does not come across as a Gypsy, so you would think you could find some historical record. Did you ever try to find some trace of the man?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

Joe

Not so sure if Pankin (Panknin) was a ghost or not. What I know about him is the following:

The man in Barks account is Earnest Albert Panknin

Born about 1855 in South Carolina , died in Phoenix in 1934 of a heart
attack age 80. He's buried in Greenwood cemetery.He was what we call a security guard today, back then they were watchmen for
the business district that became known in Phoenix as the "deuce". A rough area of saloons, gambling houses and warehouses as well as Phoenix red light district. It was about 5 square block along the railroad tracks where America West arena is today.

Panknin was married briefly from about 1901-1903 but never had any children. Lora Pool was his wife and her family still lives in the old
Coronado District near downtown Phoenix. Brownie Holmes knew them quite well.

When Panknin died he was in business with Bill VanDoren, they were running somekind of a warehouse or garage in that district.

Panknin was real and appears to have had the adventures that were written about him. I wouldnt mind taking a gander at a certain map he supposedly possessed.

P
late49er
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tricks, trails, caves, squaws, ore deposits.,

Post by late49er »

Roger,

Ore Deposits of the Superstitions/LDM 1.

Perhaps the best way to illustrate why I believe LDM 1 is an epithermal deposit is to reference a post I made a while back. This post refers to the Deering/Two Soldiers/ LDM1.

" Your question about the volcanic Chimney is a good one. LDM 1 in my opinion is a epithermal deposit. It contains vugs and the host of minerals one would expect to find in such a setting. Such as Kaolinite, Alunite, pyrite, and visible gold. I believe the gold ore associated with the Superstitions that has become public are from LDM 2 or 3".

"In terms of the LDM. One thing to consider I do not accept the paradigm that Waltz only frequented one Peralta Mine. I believe he had access to at least 4, 2 mesothermal and 2 epithermal".

Basically then we are in agreement that the Jake did in fact work a mesothermal deposit just not this one.

The Superstitions at least geologically for me is a mess. Maybe that reflects my lack of training. I am only a rockhound. So therefore my conclusions basically come from what I see not what I read. My exposure to Gold Deposits began in the south at Dahlonega, Georgia and moved west a number of years ago. Read somewhere Waltz may have been in that area. The deposits in Georgia are basically Hypothermal as contrasted with the mesothermal deposits I have been involved with in California, and Arizona and epithermal deposits I have worked in Colorado, Arizona, and Nevada.

One thing that I have read that I find amusing is the tendency down there to talk about the possiblity of ore deposits in the Superstitions and using Goldfield Nevada as an example of a rich ore deposit that was formed in igneous rocks. Yes and what makes Goldfield so rich is that is a tertiary epithermal deposit. It is not a mesothermal deposit. Goldfield was incrediably rich, read Sally Zanjani`s account of Alladin`s room in Goldfield. It has a host of minerals that are associated with an epithermal deposit such as Sericite, Sb-Compounds and fascinatingly enough Tellurides. Never could figure out where the Tellurides came from. I can only assume folks down there really do believe or know there are epithermal gold deposits in the Superstitions associated with a caldera complex. One thing I will say the caldera associated with LDM 1 has not been identified in the literature I have seen.

TGH,

You are right to believe that gold deposits will have a certain character to them. I know myself I could always tell gold that came out of the Calhoun Mine in Georgia or the Halle Mine in North Carolina. Gold from the Hayes-Monette lease in Goldfield, Nevada is readily identifiable.

The challenge in the Superstitions is that no one has produced a sample of ore from LDM1 for analysis. The samples that have been made public really do not tell us a lot and that is understandable. I would just say the things that to me distinguish LDM1 ore is the vugs and, the almost star like appearence of the gold, the bleaching of the surrounding area, and Kaolinite.

All ore deposits like LDM 1 I believe have limited vertical and horizontal existence. At depth they very well may morph into a mesothermal deposit. The mesothermal deposits in the Sup`s, at least the ones I am aware of are a bit more regional in scope and were caused by different types of geologic actions. Their vein constituents tend to carry such minerals as Chalcopyrite, Arsopyite, if I remember a bit of Manganese, and on occasion Chlorite.


Trails and Tricks:


The more I think about the business with Deering the more convinced I am that the trick in the trail is not the hole. Having said that I could very well be wrong that the trick in the trail for Deering was the birfucation of one trail into a number of trails. Perhaps at the end of the day he is referring to something all together different who knows. All I can say is for me personally what I have presented as the trick in the trail makes more sense to me. Perhaps the trick in the trail was the ladder he saw in the distance that allowed him to identify the cave. Perhaps that is how he hit the jackpot. Never really liked that trail anyway. Martin`s trail from the backdoor was always more civilized and better maintained.


The direction of my mine is the narrow gorge.


Regards,


Late 49er
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Late,

I have seen a few samples of mined rock that originated in the Superstitions that tested out to contain Sylvanite. I am certain the telluride (tellurium) that is associated with certain ore samples came from that Sylvanite. Had a good laugh at the time, because the mined rock was stuck in a crevasse (as if someone purposefully dumped it there) and I was yanking out chunks tossing them at my friends who were behind me. Narrowly missed one fellow and he called me a whole bunch of dirty names....not an unwarranted reaction I guess. Still, they did hurt my delicate feelings some....

You kinda have me confused with your LDM 1-2-3s. I figure we are talking about Deerings mine here. Whether or not it was Waltzs too , I dunno.

P
Roger
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LDM Ore Type

Post by Roger »

late49,

You posted the following item on 10/1/05 under the Forum Topic "Jake's Ore":

"Thanks for the follow up information on the ore sample. Think those samples, assuming the information is correct, should give folks pause in thinking that Waltz was only on to one Peralta Mine. But then again one could contend they were just different ore shoots in the same mine. From where I sit the sample containing the black quartz probably came from LDM 1. Bet the white quartz was a mesothermal deposit and the pink quartz probably came from near Miner`s Needle."

I think we may be agreeing to some degree on what types of ore Jake had. I posted in an earlier topic that I thought from quoted references that Jake had 3 sources of ore:

1. LDM Ore - White quartz with heavy gold content represented by the Jewelry ore, Camp ore, and Kochera ore.
2. Rose Ore - Rose quartz with some gold content
3. Placer Gold

As for LDM Ore, Glover writes in his book on page 280 that "In the Superstition ores the gold is held in the smooth rock itself........The Superstition ores do not have vugs, the gold runs through the smooth rock." This is the only basis I have for saying that the LDM ore is mesothermal and is also not vuggy.

The Rose Ore came from an outcrop in the middle of the wagon road back toward Goldfield. This was marked on the map that Watlz gave Julia and Rhiney. It was later developed as the Mormon Stope by Mormons from Mesa that later discovered it. This gold was endothermic quartz and probably vuggy, but that is not documented. Page 275.

The Gold Placer came from somewhere in the interior of the Supers. My suspicion is that it was in the Red Mountain area as placer gold is known to have been found there. Ron Feldman's recent dig was also in this area and related to a mine that was following an ancient placer deposit.

Don't know if this helps or confuses!

Roger
Roger
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LDM Ore Types

Post by Roger »

Made an error in above post - I suspect that Waltz's placer gold came from the area around "IRON MOUNTAIN", not Red Mountain.

Roger
bill711
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Jakes Orr

Post by bill711 »

Boys; What is a Vugg? Now remember this the Jake got around like a Tom Cat so All orr he used may NOT have come from the SUP,S? We do know the orr under his bed came from the Sup,s? Bill 8)
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Dearing?chunning

Post by bill711 »

Joe/Pete; Did deering tell Chun that the miles were AS THE CROW FLIES? Then it would be a couple of miles BUT could still be 7/8 mile on the HOOF! bill 8) AS in the GRAND CANYON 5 mile down BUT a 2 day ride.
late49er
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The LDM and other things

Post by late49er »

TGH,

Sylvanite. AuAgTe4. Believe it is found in epithermal environments if my memory serves me. Pretty stuff. Was the Sylvanite visible?

Interesting, someone may have been working an epithermal deposit, probably associated with a caldera complex. Just a guess.

The LDM 1-4 business is just my way of keeping things somewhat straight. Waltz had access to 4 Peralta Mines. 2 epithermal and 2 mesothermal. He helped remove ore from LDM 1 with several other folks, whether or not he actually mined the site I do not know. I believe two of the other mines he had to himself. The other he may have had a run in with a local over, who knows. A kid in a candy store.

Roger,

Good Catch.

Haven`t a clue about the gold that came out of Goldfield, Arizona. Maybe some one else can jump in here and comment. My interests have always been in the interior of the range. Goldfield, Arizona is far too public for my tastes.

Have to say I have seen rose quartz with visible gold from the interior though. Believe the sample with Black quartz probably had a wiry appearance. But then again I could be confused with another mine. At 57 this stuff sometimes gets that way.

The one thing that has fascinated me though are the number of locations in the Superstitions that have Starburst`s close to mining activities. Any thoughts?

Really at the end of the day LDM 1 is just a gold mine, the other is what is really importent. A great man down there understood this. Sad he has passed on. Would like to have met him. Wonder if anyone would like to see the site? I generally spend a couple of weeks there in March. This is not about gold, never has been.


Hi Bill,

Good to hear from you.

Hope things are well with you and yours. a vug is just a cavity in a vein that is generally in laid with minerals.

Believe the trail business with Deering is confusing because Deering well I will stay out of that.


Regards,


Late 49er
bill711
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Caves

Post by bill711 »

Late; Could a diamond, ruby or emerald be found in a vugg?? I know nothing about geo. or gold mining terms. Hence the questions. The closest I can come to mining is my brother had some old land that a co. paid him for stripping the coal from. My grand father and his bros mined coal too. My grand pa died young from miners black lung. Bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
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Starburst's

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

Don't we need some kind of fluid current and direction to establish
"starburst depositional patterns"? I assume the volcanic action in the formation of the Superstitions, is where that "current direction" came from.

One usually needs to drill to find such a pattern.

Bill,

I have mentioned before that Waltz worked in many areas of gold mining.
No surprise if he had a variety of the stuff hoarded away.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
late49er
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starbursts

Post by late49er »

Hello Joe,

Not talking about geological phenomena. Talking about signs. Just wondering who may have left them.

Regards,


Late49er
LARRY WEBB
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Starbursts

Post by LARRY WEBB »

Late49

Just thought I'd jump in here if it's OK! The Spanish left the starbursts.

The trick that's being talked about is a narrow ledge about a foot wide
that has a drop off on one side and a wall on the other side. You have to
turn sideways with your back to the wall and inch along to get there.

Waltz knew of more than one mine but I believe he only worked one mine
late in life. Two of the mines were about a mile distant from each other.
One he didn't like because it was subject to attack very easily. This is the
one that Deering found.

The narrow ledge that I have already mentioned was so narrow that the
animals couldn't go there, burros, mules, etc.

Larry
Gene Reynolds
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Ruth and Peralta Book

Post by Gene Reynolds »

Just a quick note-

In the Peralta book I read a page of - it talked about Rose Quartz - Ruth had underlined it in pencil - on the oposite page there was a b & w picture of a man standing in oviously a mine pointing to the back wall at a vein,

Sadly I cannot remember more than that - I was to exited finding the book and scanned it quickly for the writer and where it was made....but then too - I don't know what area the picture was taken either or even state for that matter - had I only known the value of that book and that Stella would pass away soon - all this might be history by now. I am assuming that it was talking about Arizona and the Sup's and that is why Ruth underlined it and even wrote around the edges of many pages.....But then ......... as far as I'm concerned - unless it is found - There's not any sense of even talking about it.......

Sorry - out of here

Gene
Writer of Borrego 13
Joe Ribaudo
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Starbursts and Tricks

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Larry and Late,

Those were some interesting posts.

Would it be possible for the two of you to describe the "starbursts" you mentioned? Are they scratched in the rock, or artifacts? Since you brought them up, I assume the information is not that important, but it would be interesting to know what they look like.

How does one differentiate between a Spanish starburst and one made by Native Americans, assuming it is scratched in the rock?

Why would you consider a ledge to be a "trick in the trail"? If the trail leads to the ledge, where's the trick? A trail that leads to a ledge.... seems fairly obvious that the ledge is part of the trail. 8O

No mention of "starbursts" by Deering or the Two Soldiers, or a ledge for that matter. Why not?

Once you are at the mine, the mysteries are over. Find the pit with gold ore laying all over the place, and the starbursts would seem secondary to those folks, but I would think they would mention something that unusual.

Did you folks take any pictures of all these starbursts?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
LARRY WEBB
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Starbursts

Post by LARRY WEBB »

Joe

I was assuming what Late was talking about is the circle within circle and
a bunch of lines going out from the circles like the ones on top of Black
Top Mesa, on rock.

As far as the trick goes it would be almost as if you came to a dead end
as could go no further. You would even have to take off your back pack
to inch along the side.

Respectfully

Larry
late49er
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Starburst and Tricks

Post by late49er »

Hello Joe and Larry,

Joe,

Actually the signs are importent because of their relationship to mining operations.

Wouldn`t describe them as scratches in the rock, whoever did this was pretty sophisticated.

Yes there are a number of pictures that have been taken of them but those pictures are not mine to make public.

Don`t have a clue as to why the tradition doesn`t comment on this. But then again the tradition that has been made public is limited to begin with.

On another subject. In a previous post of mine I spoke to the issue of epithermal gold deposits in the Superstitions. Do you know of any information down there relating to epithermal gold deposits relating to caldera complexes that the Jake may have frequented. Can`t believe someone hasn`t touched on this before. My interest would be to the Superstition mountains proper, not the Goldfield area.

Hope things are well with you and yours. I believe I read here that you had a family member pass away recently. My sympathies to you and your family.

Larry,

Interesting observation on the trick in the trail business. Have to admit I must be on a different trail. That must be a pretty tight place you are referencing. Guess it is good a candidate as any for the trick.

Appreciate your comment regarding the starburst. You maybe right. I suspect though they may pre-date Spanish activites in the mountains.


Regards,


Late49er
Roger
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The "Trick" On The Trail

Post by Roger »

Larry, you posted:

"The trick that's being talked about is a narrow ledge about a foot wide that has a drop off on one side and a wall on the other side. You have to turn sideways with your back to the wall and inch along to get there."

Do you think this is the "trick" that Deering talked about or is there something else that goes with the narrow ledge?

Roger
Joe Ribaudo
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Baack To The Wall

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Larry,

I have been on my share of ledges in the Superstitions as well as other "dangerous" mountains. I have never in all these years (I was 61 on the tenth) ever, ever turned my back to a rock face and worked my way along a ledge. There are other, less painful ways to kill
yourself.

For all I know, you may be a 5.11 to 5.14 YDS rated climber, and if so, you will be laughing as you read my post, same as me. :lol: There have been many times that my team members refused to follow me in a free climb. There is no doubt they were smarter than this dim-wit, but I did manage to see some magnificent views. Yes....I do have the pictures.

Traversing a ledge on a cliff face is (almost) always done facing the rock. There are so many reasons for this, that one would need a small book to do justice to the techniques used, and why. What would I consider to be the most important reason for facing the wall......handholds. 8O You can find nine examples of them on page 183 of the sixth edition of "Mountaineering" by, Don Graydon and Kurt Hanson.
I mainly purchased the book for Chapter 20, "Alpine Rescue", but have learned a great deal more from the contents of the other chapters.

For those of you who may be thinking of using Larry's technique, ass pucker will not work while traversing a ledge. :lol:

Not knowing many details of Larry's Ledge, I will assume he had good reason for turning his back to the wall. A number of people have died while climbing in the Supe's, thankfully he was not one of them.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
bill711
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The Ledge

Post by bill711 »

Joe; ASSPUCKER is how you stay glued to the rock faced wall! haw haw haw Whinny whinny whinny...bill 8) This is getting better all the time...
Last edited by bill711 on Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Deering told Chunning:

...."and say John, there is a trick in the trail. Oh, it's not much of a trick either, but you have to go through a hole."

The above leaves out trail systems and ledges, whether or not they exist in the vicinity of Deerings Mine. The "trick" in the trail is most likely exactly what Deering said it was. Whether or not this landmark was somewhere on the trail itself or close to the mine is a matter of conjecture.

P
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