The Rhiney Petrasch Letter

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
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The Rhiney Petrasch Letter

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

A friend recently asked me about the Rhiney Petrasch letter and the information surrounding its authenticity.

I don't know a lot about it, other than the "fact" that Jim Hatt's great grandfather was supposed to have delivered it and helped to decypher the mixed language message.

The problem that I have run into, is trying to place Arthur Earl Hatt in Montana in 1892. Perhaps Mr. Hatt, or one of the identities that seem to have a close association with him, could clear this up for me.

The 1900 Census for the State of Illinois shows Mr. Hatt still living in that state. It is the correct Arthur Hatt.

For anyone trying to follow the letter/Hatt connection, this seems to be a dead end.

Anyone have some details?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Knun
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Petrasch Arrival

Post by Knun »

Joe,

This doesn't have anything to do with your post other than it involves the Petrasch family so I hope you don't mind.

In Helen Corbin's book "The Bible..." see provides a photocopy of the "Cambria's" manifest as proof of the petrasch family arrival into the US (circa 1871). However Gottfried's age is listed as 65 when he actually was around 36 at that time.

A better fit is the "Hormonia" which arrived from Hamburg on May 19, 1869. This manifest lists Gottfried, Henene, Herman, Reinford, Pauline arriving in New York.
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Das Trail

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Knun,

That's a good piece of work, but many researchers have already been down that road.

Running down the details surrounding the letter is something that has not been given more than cursory attentiion.

Dr. Glover states that: "It must have been some letter, for not only were Gottfried and Herman soon headed to Phoenix, but, so was Hatt." That does not agree with the story that Redison told us on Sept. 7, 2005 in the Spitzfelsen topic. His story came directly from Jim Hatt, according to Mr. Edison. No mention is made of Aurther Earl Hatt returning to Illinois where he is found in the 1900 Census. He is listed as being born in 1875 in Michigan. He would have been 17 in 1892.

Dr. Glover does not give a source for his story tying the Hatt's to the Petraschs and I don't believe he made it up, so who was his source?
There are many things about this story that could be answered with little effort, much like the questions that surround the death of Jan.

Anyone have some answers?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Das Post

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Just to save everyone a little time, here is Redison's post:


redison
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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: Re: German Clues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

S.C. wrote:
I have often wondered about the letter Rhiney wrote to Gotfried and Herman. The one convincing them to come back to Arizona and help with the search. As Thomas Glover pointed out in his book, it "must have been some letter." Because they came back to something they had abandoned.


S.C.

I can shed a little more light on that subject.

Earl Arthur Hatt an ordained Minister and part time school teacher was the Great-Grandfather of Jim Hatt. According to the story told to me by Jim, Gottfried and Herman Petrasch were living in a mining camp on the outskirts of Helena, Montana in 1892. Earl Hatt actually delivered the letter to the Petraches, that Rhiney Petrasch had written to them telling the story about Waltz's death and the Mine.

Apparently Julia Thomas & Rhiney Petrasch, concerned about Waltz's comment that they couldn't do anything with the mine because they weren't Miners, and already having failed to locate two caches Waltz was supposed to have made and given them directions to, decided to write to Rhiney's Father (Gottfried) and Brother (Hermann) and ask them to come to Arizona and help them find and work the Mine. The letter contained a list of Landmarks in the general area around the Mine supposedly to convince Gottfried & Hermann that finding the Mine would not be as much of a problem as they had experienced in looking for the caches.

When Earl Hatt delivered that letter to the Petrasch's they opened it in his presence and found it to be almost illegible to any one of them individually because it was written in a combination of English and German. The Three of them worked together to decipher the German parts of the letter and make a copy of it that was all in English. In the end, Earl was invited to join the Petrasch's, and go with them to Arizona as a partner in the mine, but he declined the invitation, and attempted to talk them out of uprooting themselves and making such a long journey in search of something that Rhiney had already failed to locate and might not actually exist.

Remaining determined to go to Arizona and having nothing else of value to offer Earl in return for tutoring services he had provided them during the course of their friendship, and as a gesture of their trust in him, they insisted that he keep the copy of the letter (which they considered to be of great value) that Earl had completely converted to English, in case he ever changed his mind.

They stressed the fact that if something should happen to them on their trip that would prevent them from ever reaching Arizona, He could, at any later Date, go to Phoenix, Arizona find Rhiney, show him the copy of the letter, and Rhiney would know that he had been a trusted friend of theirs in Montana and be received by Rhiney as he would have been received by Gottfried and Hermann themselves. The Petrasch's left for Arizona, and Earl Hatt never heard from them again.

Earl Hatt kept the copy of the letter hoping to someday read about his friends and the rich gold mine they left Montana to search for, but the news never came.

As Arthur Earl Hatt (Son of Earl Arthur and Grandfather of Jim Hatt) was growing up, he heard the story of the Petrasch's repeated many times by his father whenever there were headlines about a Gold Strike somewhere in the Southwest, but his friend’s names would never be included in the story. Some time circa.1956 Arthur Earl obtained a copy of Sims Ely’s book and made the connection between the name Petrasch and what has become known as The Lost Dutchman Mine.

When Jim told me this story, he added that he had never disclosed the intimate details of it to anyone and had only discussed the general details of it to a few individuals. He further stated that he did not know who Thomas Glover was prior to his first book being published, had never talked to him or corresponded with him in any way and did not know who Glover’s source was for the version of the story as it appears in his book.


The following is from the foreword of Jim Hatt’s book about the Peralta Stone Maps.

“Jim Hatt first heard the story about the Lost Dutchman Mine from his great-grandfather Earl Arthur Hatt in 1956. Earl had personally known and been close friends with members of the Petrasch family who were among some of the earliest searchers for the lost mine of Jacob Waltz (the Dutchman). Earl maintained little more than a casual interest in what eventually grew to be one of the most famous legends in the entire history of lost mines in the Southwest. The story smoldered through four generations of the Hatt family until it fell upon Jim’s ears and burned into his soul. Jim dreamed of going to Arizona and searching for the lost mine all of his life, but it was not until 1989 when his children were grown and a long period of being a single parent ended and left him free to pursue his own dreams. “


redison
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Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

Joe or anyone,

I am confused with this statement. It reads as though the Petrasch's could not read German.

"When Earl Hatt delivered that letter to the Petrasch's they opened it in his presence and found it to be almost illegible to any one of them individually because it was written in a combination of English and German. The Three of them worked together to decipher the German parts of the letter and make a copy of it that was all in English."

Since the Ptsh's were German they would have no problem reading German, and by that time probably no problem reading English. This maybe a little nit-pickey and is needless discussion, but I just wanted to ask anyone who will give me a good answer.

Jesse
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Reverend Earl Arthur Hatt

Post by novice »

Knun,

You are certainly correct in your research regarding the manifest for the ship Hammonia.

All,

I have done some research regarding the Petrasch family and the Rhiney letter. I had posted some time ago that the chronology of Gottfried Petrasch's voter registration in the Great Maricopa Register was troubling.

I framed my search using the account in Dr. Glover's Book, Page 179 and the LDM Forum Post by redison [September 7, 2005 – Topic; Spitzfelsen....]. Both tell the story of "the letter" although redison shares additional detail. In the redison version, Earl Hatt didn't return to Arizona with the Petraschs as he did in Dr. Glover's version. Redison further related that Jim Hatt stated he "did not know the source for Dr. Glover's book."

From the stories, I gather that Jim Hatt arrived in Arizona in 1989 and apparently brought with him the story of a letter that his Great-Grandfather, Reverend Arthur Earl Hatt possessd, that provided a direct family tie to the Petrasch Family and the Lost Dutchman Mine Story. The letter from Rhinehart Petrasch apparently goes into some detail. Dutchman Hunter's have been salivating about the contents ever since and trying to find or guess at the contents. :)

Redison related that Earl Arthur Hatt an ordained Minister and part time school teacher was the Great-Grandfather of Jim Hatt.

Both Jim's Grandfather and Great-Grandfather were named Arthur Earl and to alleviate confusion I will reference the Great-Grandfather as Earl and the Grandfather as Arthur.

The following is the story of "Earl" Arthur Hatt derived from documents I have found.

Earl was born May 12, 1875 in Linden, Livingston County, Michigan. He was the son of Robert and Elizabeth "Hyatt" Hatt. Earl's father was a farmer and Earl apparently grew up in the south central Michigan area. The first document we have identified for Earl was a marriage record. If there is not an error in his obituary, Earl was married May 12, 1897, on his 22nd birthday, in Ottawa County, Michigan to Hortense Koyl.

A son, Arthur Earl Hatt was born April 13, 1898 in Blanchard, Isabella County, Michigan. The family next shows up in the 1900 census in Tolono, Champaign County, Illinois. Earl is listed with his wife and son Arthur and his occupation is a minister. Looking at the census, we find 7 additional ministers and their families living in the same vicinity. My first impression was that there might have been some type of seminary or training school for ministers in Tolono but I have been unable to verify this.

It was sometime after this that "Earl" went west to serve as a missionary for the Methodist Church. Apparently the area in which he served encompassed portions of Montana, Nebraska and the Dakotas. According to his obituary he started this ministry in the west about 1910. In fact we find the family living in Chouteau County, Montana in the 1910 census. Earl and Hortense have two children. Arthur was the oldest, 12, and they had a child 8. There is some confusion in the census regarding this child but from other information, I believe this is a daughter Alma. Alma was born about 1902 in Michigan.

On August 13, 1917 Earl Hatt received a patent for 320 acres in Phillips County, Montana under the Homestead Act. This would indicate that he had met all of the requirements for homesteading so he would have filed on the land a few years sooner. Phillips County had been formed in 1915 and the family doesn't appear to have moved very far from their location in the 1910 census. In 1920 Earl and his family are still listed in Phillips County, Montana. Both the 1910 and 1920 census reference the township of Dodson. By now both Arthur and Alma have left but there was a 5 year old daughter, Lulu Elizabeth listed.

Phillips County, Montana borders on Canada and it seems that this homestead was the base of operations for his missionary work. According to the obituary Earl continued his ministry in the area until 1924 when he returned to Michigan.

Earl's son Arthur Hatt married Anna Janzen and by 1920 shows up in Seattle, King County, Washington. The have a daughter almost 3 years old called Dollie. Arthur is working as a Iron laborer. this must have only been temporary since we find Arthur receiving a Land Patent for 633 acres on April 6, 1923. It is not clear how long Arthur remained in Montana but by the 1930 census he had also returned to Michigan. By this time he and Anna had 5 children. Arthur was listed as a Mason Contractor and was living in Ingham County along with his father who was still listed as a minister.

I have some additional genealogical information but I believe this would add little to the story for our purposes. I will simply post the Obituary for the Reverend Arthur "Earl" Hatt below. The obituary doesn't record a newspaper or the date so were not sure when Earl died but since he was 99 years old, we can guess that he died about 1974.

OBITUARY:
The Rev. Arthur E. Hatt, Sr., aged 99, a retired Methodist clergyman, died early Saturday morning, April 30, at the Chelsea Methodist Home, after a long illness. He had been a resident of the home since Feb. 25, 1963.

Born May 12, 1875 in Linden, he was the son of Robert and Elizabeth Hyatt Hatt. He was married to Hortense Coyle [sic] on May 12, 1897. She died Jan. 12, 1952, at Mt. Pleasant. He married Julia Hooker in 1954, in Grand Ledge. She died Feb. 23, 1962.

The Rev. Hatt was a traveling missionary for the Methodist Protestant church in the Dakotas and Nebraska from 1910 to 1924. Later this church merged with the Methodist Episcopal and the southern M. E. church to form the present Methodist denomination. The Rev. Hatt served pastorates in Flowerfield, Deckerville, Otter Lake and Brant, all in Michigan, retiring in 194l.

Surviving is a son, Arthur E. Hatt, Jr., of Laingsburg, a daughter, Mrs. Ted (Lulu) Boettcher of Lansing, 22 grandchildren, and four great-grandchildren.

Funeral services for the Rev. Hatt were conducted at the Methodist Home Chapel at 10 a.m. Monday, with the Rev. William Johnson, chaplain of the Home, and the Rev. George Grettenberger of Potter Park Methodist church in Lansing, officiating. Burial took place in Riverside cemetery, Mt. Pleasant. Arrangements were made by the Burghardt Funeral Home.

[Obituary found in card catalog at McKune Memorial Library, Chelsea, MI]

The Hatts were indeed in Montana but it appears they were at least ten years too late (the Petraschs left Montana in 1892) to have been involved with the Petraschs? Their homesteads were also a long way from the mining areas of Helena and Virginia City. In addition as Ribaudo has stated above, "Earl" would have only been 17 years old in 1892.

I cannot say that every stone has been turned over but if there are missing pieces, they would probably be in Michigan. This information is not readily at hand on the internet (that I can find) and would require on the ground research in Michigan. It is not impossible, that information exists that could save some portions of this story, but I won't hold my breath?

References:

There are additional references that involve birth records, queries, deaths, etc. but below are the most important.

LAND PATENTS IN MONTANA: Earl and Arthur both received patents

http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/PatentSearch/Default.asp? (Search on Montana and Hatt)

OBITUARY: Arthur E. Hatt, Sr.

http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=b ... .washtenaw

CENSUS INFORMATION;

1880 Census, Livingston County, Michigan [Parents Robert and Hannah and "Earl" (5)]
1900 Census, Champaign County, Illinois ["Earl" (25) and wife Hortense and son Arthur]
1910 Census, Chouteau County, Montana ["Earl" (35) and wife Hortense and two children]
1920 Census, Phillips County, Montana ["Earl" (44) and wife Hortense and daughter Lulu]
1920 Census, King County, Washington [Arthur (21) and wife Annie and daughter]
1930 Census, Ingham County, Michigan ["Earl" (55) and wife Hortense and daughter]
1930 Census, Ingham County, Michigan [Arthur (32) and wife Annie and 5 children]
Joe Ribaudo
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Eating and Sleeping

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

I was aware of a few things you have posted, just enough to get myself in trouble, but had no idea what the rest of the iceberg looked like. 8O

When I asked if anyone had some details, I never expected anything of this depth, at least not from one person. I assume you are not a "team" of researchers, so one wonders if you take time out to eat or sleep. :?

From the small amount of research I have done on Ancestry.Com, I could see that the letter story had some problems. Your research, however, places a brick wall between the story and the facts.

I realized there was a great deal, unknown to me, that might show that Earl Hatt could have been in Montana in 1892, but because of his age, the 1900 Census showing him living in Illinois and the "fact" that he was providing "tutoring services" to the Petraschs at such a young age, I found the whole story difficult to believe.

None of that means the story is not true. A lot of people have looked at this topic. I can only assume one of them knows the truth about the letter story.

You cease to amaze me.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Readin n' Writen

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jesse,

Trying to pin down the details of this story would require that it be true. If it is fiction, logic will not apply.

One of the things that troubled me, was the location of Arthur Hatt in relation to the Petrasch's in Montana. Anyone know the distances involved?

If this story about the letter is a fabrication, can we trust the letter story at all? Once accepted "facts" go south, the entire story starts to unravel.
Who and what do we trust? We trusted Buscar's account of Jan's death, and now that appears to have gone south. As you can see, the rest of the story has also come under suspicion.

Once you weave a web of deceit, it is only a matter of time till someone comes along and takes a broom to it. Those who know the truth of these matters should speak up.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

Joe,

You make some very good points. All of which I understand, but it is good to see it in print. We have to always be on guard to those trying to play us. If one gets interested in a story there is a lot of work to find the credibility in it. Taking a story for face value is dangerous, unless there is no more to the story to be found. Then we have to be satisfied with what we have. Those stories could be true and in time evidence will pop up to at least show some solid links tying into the the picture or not. This is why your work here and others like you are important to this society. The letter story is an important lesson to those who take history for face value and will not accept anything but the popular story or the accepted facts. It takes people like you to bring everyone in check on such stories. I'm not saying the letter story is not true. I am saying to not become a victim to those full of games or other interests. This is the problem with the entire Dutchman story. All of the big players are guilty of it. All of them. Everyone was/is protecting something or trying to scam someone. Thats human nature. It is the way they survived and could not be any different.

Jesse
Last edited by Jesse J. Feldman on Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Right or Wrong

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jesse,

Thank you for the kind words, but I would prefer to be wrong on both of these stories. Right or wrong, there are many members on this Forum who have treated both stories with respect. They deserve the truth.

Those who are sitting on the facts are showing disrespect to a lot of good people. If they don't want to answer to me, they could at least present their evidence in private messages or e-mail to the others. Anything else shows complete contempt for every member.

The name of the person behind this is spreading like wildfire in the Dutch Hunter Community. I understand that it is unlikely that this person will do the right thing, but his only hope to save any face at all, is to give us the facts of both matters.

The day of truth is fast approaching, still time to do the right thing. If I am wrong here, along with many others, I will be more than happy to apologize......profusely.

This will be my last post on these matters, unless the vermin return.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
empire poker

Post by empire poker »

Gentleman,

I have followed the Petrasch/Hatt letter topic with more than a casual interest. There are a number of what I cannot call anything but heavily biased posts here. I don’t understand all the effort put forth in researching the Hatt family when the source of the information about the letter has not even been positively identified yet.

Having met Mr. Hatt briefly on a couple of informal occasions at the Superstition Museum when it was at the goldfield ghost town I feel a small personal connection with this topic and present the following point of view.

If I understand correctly, it appears that Mr. Glover took the word of a second party about the Petrasch/Hatt letter and printed it in his book as fact. What is curious is that he didn’t name his source and provide some supporting information relating to their creditability. Even more curious is that the original source of the information one or more steps removed from Mr. Glover‘s source and assumed to be Mr. Hatt was alive and living in Ariz. at the time of the publication and appears not to have been contacted by Mr. Glover to verify the story or get his consent to use it before it was published. That could be easily solved by Mr. Glover producing a document signed by Mr. Hatt attesting to the validity of the information and giving his consent to use it. I have no basis (yet) on which to challenge Mr. Glover’s or Mr. Redison’s version of the story but in comparing both of them to the version in the front of Mr. Hatt’s book in his own words. I see a lot of room for second party error and grandstanding.

Since Mr. Glover, has quit posting on this site and Novice has magically appeared with all the background knowledge and research skill of someone not so novice, a great deal has been discussed about Mr. Hatt by him and a number of other new members that all happened to come alive around the same time that LDM, Aurum, TGH and a few others got quiet or quit posting under their own names. I am not an expert investigator like some of the members on this site but I am not blind either. By all available evidence I know of that is traceable directly to Mr. Hatt he appears to be pretty quiet about his LDM sources and theories and focuses all of his public conversations on the stone maps and various other lost mine legends of the Superstitions. If there ever was a Petrasch/Hatt letter, it doesn’t seem to be something he has ever talked openly about. It doesn’t make sense to me that he would.

If we eliminate Mr. Redison as a creditable source for obvious reasons we are left with nothing but Mr. Glover’s source.

The first question is who was it?
The second question is did he verify the information?
The third question is did he get permission to publish it?

The last question is, why aren’t Novice, Joe or TGH asking any of these questions?

Cordially,

An A.J. Local
Joe Ribaudo
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The Other Side?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mr. A.

You asked:

"The last question is, why aren’t Novice, Joe or TGH asking any of these questions?"

I asked in this thread:

"Dr. Glover does not give a source for his story tying the Hatt's to the Petraschs and I don't believe he made it up, so who was his source?"

I have no idea why you included TGH (Peter) in your question. He has not posted on this topic, and has nothing to do with it.

In researching the Petrasch family, a side issue became the Arthur Hatt association with Gottfried and Hermann. In following that line of the story, it seemed reasonable to get some historical information on the Hatt family. I have done the same thing with many minor players in the LDM saga. If you were to read back in my past posts, you will find that I have come up with a great deal of peripheral historical information. Much of that information comes from research into genealogy, very old books and manuscripts.

Finding Arthur Earl Hatt in the 1900 Ill Cenus, did not fit with the Petrasch
letter chronology. It was not much of a leap to come to the conclusion that the story had some large problems. Mr. Edison has stated that he got the story directly from Jim Hatt. I will accept that as a legitimate source.

"Having met Mr. Hatt briefly on a couple of informal occasions at the Superstition Museum...."

There are a number of people on this Forum who have met Mr. Hatt and have known him for years. Many of them are not using an anonymous identity, as you are, and have remained silent on this subject. I know that many of them are personal friends of the man.

There is no reason for you to expose your true identity, as that is not a requirement on this Forum. Coming with the "credentials" you have presented to explain your ability to speak on this matter, will not seem very convincing to any member of average intelligence here.

If you have done any reading of this Forum, you will notice that the research that has been done is prolific and far ranging. Stories that have been accepted as "fact" have been shown to be something less than that.

You have misunderstood the direction of this topic. It is to question the "facts" provided by Dr. Glover and Mr. Edison. If you can provide any facts from your own research, they would be most welcome, at least by me.

"Since Mr. Glover, has quit posting on this site and Novice has magically appeared with all the background knowledge and research skill of someone not so novice, a great deal has been discussed about Mr. Hatt by him and a number of other new members that all happened to come alive around the same time that LDM, Aurum, TGH and a few others got quiet or quit posting under their own names."

You are correct here, but that is something that has been going on for some time before this. I am surprised that you would mention this, because YOU have "magically appeared" with more expertise on these matters than seems warranted. LDM and Aurum are the same person. He has given his true name to the Forum. Peter uses his own name.
Both men are known and respected by almost every member of this Forum, and outside it as well. Many of us have known their true names for years.

I would bet that the members, at least those that are not all one person, will give your concerns the consideration they deserve. Intelligence, such as yours, should always be given the respect due.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

apachejunctionlocal,

By now it is readily apparent that even the densest of us know who you are.
Whether you post as lone wolf or Jan (reckon that one has thankfully been put to rest), redison or ray tucker, ronnie kelso or ajlocal, it is kinda silly to try and keep up the charade. I wouldnt have given a hoot had this disgusting Jan thing not interfered with Steve. Well, now I do give a hoot. Lucky you.
Enjoy the attention.

Joe , you hit the nail on the head with the vermin analogy. Vermin = rodent, or RAT I imagine.

Anyone for a rhyming game?
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Densest?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Not many people envolved in this conversation. Just who did you mean with that "densest" comment?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Not Leaving The Ship Yet?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Is it just me, or is there an effort being made to change the current focus?

I believe I said that would not work this time, but it can't hurt to try, right?

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

Dense = folks unwilling or unable to realize whats going on.

You are most likely correct about the misdirection. Jeffy is just another head of the Hydra. Ray , Ronnie and Redison go quiet and Jeff takes their place. This is too funny. Was Crazy Jake as crazy as this guy?

I hate to point out the obvious here, but did any of you find the following by "Ronnie Kelso" interesting? :

"Let us all remove our hatt's and bow our heads in prayer for Jan until we know differently. "

In another post "Ronnie" then goes on to say:

"Two of the photo's had Jan Graham's name on them and one had the name Jim Hat."

As Joe pointed out "hatt" has ONE "t", not two.

The last name of the person mentioned above has TWO "t" s , not ONE.

I am not sure why someone was intentionally mispelling their OWN name in a post, (yet another attempt at misdirection?), but perhaps the Crazy Jake analogy was on the money.

P
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In Conclusion?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Many of the "heads" that appeared on this Forum, came after me,vicioulsy, with their first posts. A pattern emerged that should have been obvious to everyone. Some of you laid down with these dogs and are now surprised that you have gotten up with fleas. 8O

The common thread with most of these "heads" has always been "Jim Hatt". If you look back thru their posts, you will find him mentioned regularly.

Had this remained that simple, nothing would have changed. I was conversing with the heads in a respectful manner. I knew from the start who they all were.....it did not really matter. They were all busy establishing their credentials. (LDM/Stone Map/Jesuit knowledge) By chance? those were the same group of subjects that Jim Hatt is a recognized expert/believer in, along with computers.

Jan's "death" changed the complection of the game. The timing of that "death" turned out to coincide with a real tragedy in our community.
While most of us had grown to tolerate "the game", it now took on a personal edge for a lot of our members.

All of this is a very strong arguement for moderators and a moderated Forum. Not to stifle the free speach that we all treasure, but to help avoid situations like this.

Trying to shift the focus on others, such as Novice or myself is the well established M.O. of the "heads". Trying to change the focus of the conversations is another trick.

It is always possible I am wrong. For those who have claimed to have exchanged information by phone and letters, what was her phone number or address? What was her real name?

Jim,

You have done a great deal of damage to yourself and your good name.
I understand that it is likely you will try to shift the blame to others, such as myself, but it is all your own work. In my opinion, it is never too late to do the right thing.

All of the above is my personal opinion.

Joe Ribaudo
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The Source of "the letter"

Post by novice »

apachejunctionlocal,

You have certainly raised a point that I had never considered. I "am" guilty of assuming that the "story" of "the letter" originated with Jim Hatt.
apachejunctionlocal wrote,

If we eliminate Mr. Redison as a creditable source for obvious reasons.
Redison (Robert Edison) did relate that "When Jim told me this story, he added that he had never disclosed the intimate details of it to anyone and had only discussed the general details of it to a few individuals."

Redison has been posting for a long time and I believe I have read most of his posts. He comes across as a person very knowledgeable and with contacts within the LDM Community.

Why should Robert Edison's account be eliminated? It doesn't appear to me to conflict noticeably with the Jim Hatt preface? Why is it obvious that Robert is not a creditable source?

What say you Redison?

If we eliminate Jim Hatt as the source, what do we have left? An unknown person supplying Dr. Glover and perhaps Robert Edison with the Hatt information? Unless he researched the Hatt family, I'm not sure how this unknown source could come up with the deatils as presented. Again, why would anyone want to do that.? They weren't trying to attack Jim, everything in the story appears to cast him in a very favorable light?

Since this story surfaced by at least by 1998 (Publication Date of Dr. Glover's Book 1st Ed.) and Jim knew the story to be false and he was bothered by it, why wouldn't he publically say something like: Guys, slow down, My Great Grandfather never knew the Petraschs.

EDIT: When rereading the Forward in Jim's Book, it states "Earl had personally known and been close friends with members of the Petrasch family" My previous comment above is obviously not applicable since Jim is surely not disavowing the relationship!
apachejunctionlocal wrote,

If there ever was a Petrasch/Hatt letter, it doesn’t seem to be something he has ever talked openly about. It doesn’t make sense to me that he would.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but to me, it would make perfect sense to leak such a story. What better way to gain acceptance by the LDM Community? A direct tie to the Petraschs! WOW!

One final question; Do you have personal knowledge that Jim Hatt has never mentioned "the letter" to anyone in the LDM Community?

Garry Cundiff
empire poker

Post by empire poker »

Hi Gary,

I appreciate the personal and respectful response. I will attempt to answer your questions that I can answer without prejudice other than I have met Jim Hatt and found him to be what I considered to be a true lover of the mountains and a man that “does his own homework” the words he used, not mine. He doesn’t put his nose into other people’s business and goes out of his way to discourage them from putting their nose too far into his. He made that clear at the very onset of our first conversation and I honored it and we have gotten along fine ever since. Anyone can see by reading this site that there are some individuals that would not honor that and would be offended by it. They probably wouldn’t like me either because I respect another person’s privacy and demand respect for my own also.



re: “Why should Robert Edison's account be eliminated? It doesn't appear to me to conflict noticeably with the Jim Hatt preface? & "Maybe I'm too cynical, but to me, it would make perfect sense to leak such a story. What better way to gain acceptance by the LDM Community? A direct tie to the Petraschs! WOW!"


The conflict I zeroed in on was Mr. Hatt saying his G-G-father was personal friends with the P’s but never said he got any LDM information from him. Although I wouldn’t expect him to broadcast it all over if he did, I did notice that he did not mention it in his own account. (wouldn’t that be a bit like A. Ruth flashing his map in everyone’s face?) As for gaining respect in the LDM community via a close personal contact with the P’s, I don’t think 3 generations away would be respected by anyone I know in the LDM Community, There are a good number of people in that community still alive today that knew H. Petrasch personally, and would not be impressed in the least by someone saying that his G-G-father knew him. I can take that a step further and state that they would be even less impressed by some saying that he had “SECRET” information coming from his G-G-father that knew the P’s before they came to Arizona. Think about it.




re: “Why is it obvious that Robert is not a creditable source? Redison has been posting for a long time and I believe I have read most of his posts. He comes across as a person very knowledgeable and with contacts within the LDM Community.”

Do you know any of his contacts within the LDM Community? Have they said that they know him? Will they attest to his creditability?

He may come across as a very creditable person to you, but the people I know in the LDM Community have never heard of him other than on this site. (With one exception) It is possible they know him by another name and some suspect that they do but suspecting is not knowing. Point 1 is, nobody knows him. (Even my one exception never met him) Point 2 is, If they do know him but by another name then he is not putting his real name on his posts and is therefore not accountable for anything he writes under the fictitious name. No Accountability, No Creditability! Simple as that.



re: “If we eliminate Jim Hatt as the source, what do we have left?”

The source is whoever Mr. Glover names.



re: "One final question; Do you have personal knowledge that Jim Hatt has never mentioned "the letter" to anyone in the LDM Community?

I obviously have to answer that as NO. I don’t even think it is a fair question, How could anyone know that? Even his wife? But I can say this. I do have personal knowledge that Jim Hatt has told ME that he never talked to Mr. Glover about “the letter” or anything else and has no idea of who his source was. I can even add that he was more than a little objectionable to almost everything Mr. Glover wrote. Ie: It is a significant difference between a G-father and a G-G-father and Jim insists that neither of them ever came to Arizona as far as he knows. Mr. Glover knew how to spell the name but about everything else was apparently repeated too many times through too many people before it got to him if you want my opinion. There are things in what Mr. Redison wrote that correspond very well with what I have heard Jim say, but some that do not correspond at all. I know Jim talked to a lot of people like me when he was the temporary manager of the museum at Goldfield. (Some I am sure claim to be close personal friends from those brief meetings) No one can say what he talked about or how much he told them, but I am waiting like everyone else to hear someone say he told them about “the letter”. My guess would be that if there was a letter, note that I said IF, and IF he told anyone about it, It would have been in the strictest confidence, and I do not know of a single person in the “close” LDM community that would break that confidence. If someone did, I am sure a lot of people would like to know who he is.

I have been around Apache Junction a long time Gary. I’ve seen all kinds come and go, Treasure Hunters by the dozens. I think I’ve known Jim for 7 maybe 8 years and though I don’t claim to be a close personal friend, I think I know him well enough to say that I’m glad that he is one of the ones that stayed around.

You know, there are a lot of people like Redison and Jan and many others, that will claim to know someone and toss their name around every chance they get in an effort to make themselves appear to be “in-touch” but when you ask the person whose name they are tossing around, he often doesn’t recall them at all and if he does it is only remotely. I think that if you look through the pages of this site you will find a lot of that going around.

You seem to have put a lot of effort into researching the Hatt family and I have a lot of respect for your research talents, but I can’t help but wonder why you didn’t go to the source (Jim) and ask if there was anything to the story before you went to so much effort? You cannot believe everything you read in books and even less of what you read on the internet. ESPECIALLY in chatrooms and forums.



You are welcome to take everything above as my own personal opinion.


Since I am not putting my name on the bottom of this post I am sure some will say I (like Redison) have no creditability either. That’s fair. But I have said nothing here that cannot be verified by anyone that is more than a casual acquaintance of Jims. I intend to hang around here a while. If you have any more questions or I overlooked some (your post was rather lengthy) let ‘em rip! If I don’t know the answers I’ll use every contact I have to try to get them for you.

A J Local
Ronnie Kelso
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Post by Ronnie Kelso »

Deleted..................
Last edited by Ronnie Kelso on Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Casual Acquaintance?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mr. A.,

"Having met Mr. Hatt briefly on a couple of informal occasions at the Superstition Museum when it was at the goldfield ghost town I feel a small personal connection with this topic and present the following point of view." (emphasis in bold by Joe)

A "couple" equals two (2).

It would appear you are much closer to Mr. Hatt than you claim in your opening post. It sounds like you have spent a great deal of time with Mr. Hatt. Perhanp in the same house?

The laughter is growing louder and louder.

No need to continue this foolishness. You are exposed.

Joe Ribaudo
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Subterfuge

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mr. Kelso,

I have not mentioned your name in any of my posts on this subject.

You have chosen to attack me, without having the courage to call me by my name. You know, you do have the option of just ignoring this subject. If you stick around, in time you will be accepted as a real person. The longer you play us, the longer you will be seen as just another head of the Hydra.

If you had actually taken the time to read my posts, you would have known I did not mention your name, and would have realized you were doing exactly what I said you would.

"Is it just me, or is there an effort being made to change the current focus?

I believe I said that would not work this time, but it can't hurt to try, right?"

"Trying to shift the focus on others, such as Novice or myself is the well established M.O. of the "heads". Trying to change the focus of the conversations is another trick."

And this, which was directly to you:

"This is something that many people are taking very seriously. It is not something that will be swept under the rug. At the same time, misdirection and trying to change the subject, old tricks here, will not be effective in this matter."

Find one person of stature, that you trust, send him your name, address, phone number and e-maill address. If he says you are who you claim to be, it will be hard for anyoneone to say you are not. Surely there is one such person on this Forum that deserves your respect and trust.

The more you attack me, or others, the more you look like a shill.

Joe Ribaudo
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Facts

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mr. Kelso,

As I reread my post to you, I realized I did not address all of your accusations.

First and foremost, I have never run anyone off of this Forum. No one left because I attacked them personally. Azmula, LDM and Peter all left because I attacked their "facts" and questioned their sources. That is something I will continue to do as long as I am able. I will continue to seek the truth, until I find out I am wrong. At that point, I will admit I was mistaken and apologize for any slight the other person may have felt I delivered. That has happened many times in my life, and on this Forum......a number of times. I might, however, try to be a little less heavy handed in my approach. :)

I was not run off of this Forum by anyone. I chose to leave to let the Forum settle down. When it did, I chose to come back. No mealy-mouthed, anonymous bastard or Hydra headed asshole had anything to do with either decision.

Dr. Glover is a personal friend of mine. He did not leave the Forum because of me. He will return in his own time and on his own terms.
While I may have had some harsh things to say about those who left, I still count them as friends and will come to there aid, if needed, until my last breath.

Your clever (in your own mind) attempts to attack me are meaningless.
Those who count, know the truth of it. The heads are being cut off one at a time untill the body is reached. No need to place your own head at risk, unless you just can't help yourself. Do not take this as some kind of threat to your safety. I am speaking metaphorically.

On the other hand, some might consider Mr. A's comments: "My guess would be that if there was a letter, note that I said IF, and IF he told anyone about it, It would have been in the strictest confidence, and I do not know of a single person in the “close” LDM community that would break that confidence. If someone did, I am sure a lot of people would like to know who he is." as a personal threat.

The one person I will make every effort to "run off" is the one who was Jan.

Roger,

I realize I have stepped outside the "Code of Conduct" here. I apologize to you and the Forum. I have, up to this point, tried to remain civil and respectful.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
empire poker

Post by empire poker »

The code of conduct having been thrown out the window and since it has come to straight out name calling based on nothing more than someone’s speculation, I see no reason that I can’t speculate too and call it just my opinion.

I think Mr. Kelso hit a lot of nails directly on the head and missed a couple but in general made a fine post.


The Joe Ribaudo and Peter Esposito feud has been vicious and ongoing for a long time. The record shows both of them creating alternate and supporting identities to try to get one up on each other over and over again. Browsing back through the pages, who was it that was so quick to jump on Peter’s “Ribadope” and help him get it out there at every opportunity? And who kept putting Jim Hatt’s name under Joe’s nose with full knowledge that it had to be burning him up every time he saw it? In fact, didn’t Jan and Redison and Ray Tucker and Peter agree on just about everything until Peter went silent? Well maybe not everything but just enough to create the desired illusion. And who broke their silence to jump on the Jan situation with both feet with all his facts lined up in perfect order way before everyone else had time to catch their breath and then launch an all out attack on his old comrades? (Which he no longer needed) What a way to throw the suspicion away from yourself huh? Who has time during the Christmas Holidays to spend so much time gathering all that information and get it organized and ready for posting while everyone else is still in shock? We saw Joe do a couple of oscillations back and forth about how he felt about what was going on, he even resorted to deleting posts so he could change sides, so I believe he was honestly caught off guard and sucked in unsuspectingly. Somebody saw this coming way ahead of the rest of us and it wasn‘t Joe! How can a feud so intense between two people for so long go from what it was to all Buddy Buddy overnight unless there was a band wagon that one of them knew the other would be quick to jump on if the opportunity arose? We saw Joe try to make amends and start fresh repeatedly but Peter would never have any part of it. What would make Peter change his mind and accept Joe as an Ali unless he were setting himself up for something really big and had to have Joe on his side to make it work? I don’t buy it the way it is coming down here! Something is very wrong somewhere and as the smoke clears fingers are sure to start pointing all over. It’s clear in the old topics that there has been offline friction of some kind between Joe Ribaudo and Jim Hatt in the past just from Joe’s online reaction to his name, and if a person dug deep enough, I’ll bet he would find that there may have been some crossed swords between Peter and Jim also. And whose name wound up in the very middle of all of it? (Between Joe and Peter) That looks a lot more like something for Peter and Joe to temporarily bond over than anything else I can see. I expect that Joe and Peter’s cease fire will not last long and they will be back at each others throats before the moon completes one full cycle, even earlier if they feel they have forever ruined the name of Jim Hatt and they no longer have any need for each other. I don’t know about the rest of you but I’m going to “DUCK” because I think the air is soon to be filled with lead! Or maybe in their case Apache Arrows and Curses.


Like their posts, this is all just my own speculation and opinion.

A J Local
empire poker

Post by empire poker »

Quote "Joe Ribaudo"

"On the other hand, some might consider Mr. A's comments: "My guess would be that if there was a letter, note that I said IF, and IF he told anyone about it, It would have been in the strictest confidence, and I do not know of a single person in the “close” LDM community that would break that confidence. If someone did, I am sure a lot of people would like to know who he is." as a personal threat."

How do you manage to pull a personal threat out of that Joe?

A J Local
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