The FIRST Set of STONE MAPS

[bill711]

Joe the first time I saw the stone maps they had tape over some of the markings; this is why I never got exited about them. YES JOE; Send me some of your oldest stone pic,s if you can I will greatly appreciate it, if you can.. Thank,s Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

If someone will post the procedure for posting a picture to the member archives, I will post the 1964 picture of the Priest Map.

Bill,

I don't have your e-mail address here at the house. Send it to me and I will send you the pictures.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[LARRY WEBB]

All

Some of the confusion over the stone maps of late, whether or not they
are real or not, could be as a result of what happened last year at the
show in January. I think this is sorta what happened! Please Joe don't
disect this word for word.

At the show last year the real Stone Maps were on display and there was
an incident concerning a lady or children that had picked up the maps
and dropped one or more of them and it freaked out the heads of the
Flagg Foundation and they were not going to display them again. So,
what they undoubtedly did was display some replicas!

Regards,

Larry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Larry,

We viewed the museum Stone Maps a few years ago. Is that terse enough?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Bushrat]

I don't know too much about the Stone Maps (only what I have read) but I did look at them at the Mesa Museum many years ago and they were beautifully displayed and impressive.

In contrast, I attended the mineral show the year before last and the tablets were in a locked glass display case and could not be handled (unless the whole display case was knocked over). This lends doubt on the damage story.

The tablets at the mineral show looked more like replicas....but maybe seeing them in daylight changed their appearance somewhat.

This is just a personal observation which probably doesn't help you men at all.

[novice]

From Dr. Glover's Book "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz" (Referring to Clarence Mitchell, Alias Travis Marlow)

Mitchell apparently decided to start a company and sell shares. The company was called MOEL Inc., which stood for Mining, Oil Exploration and Leasing, and the main and seemingly the only asset of the company was the Stone Maps......... Papers for the company were first filed in December of 1960 with the State of Neveda.

It has been my impression that Mitchell had possession of the Tablets when the company was formed but Mitchell apparently relates in his book that he received the Tablets from Alleen after the death of Travis Tumlinson (October 1961)? I would now tend to push the date that Mitchell received the Tablets back even furthur, perhaps the spring or even the summer of 1962.

From the McGee's article the Hansons stated that they heard from Alleen in June of 1961 after Travis died. (June could easily been the correct month but the year would have had to have been 1962) She had returned to Texas to decorate Travis's grave and this might have been the logical time when she would have delivered the Tablets to Mitchell? The Hanson's said that Alleen and Janie were still in Oregon but were moving back to Texas. If the Tablets were delivered on that trip, that would make the date even later.

The puzzling thing to me is what was the original purpose of MOEL Inc.? The company name and where they filed the papers doesn't suggest anything to me about the LDM. Since he apparently didn't have the Tablets at the time he founded the company, perhaps he had something else in mind? When he came later into possession of the Tablets the focus of the company turned to the LDM? Dr. Glover identifies two other officers besides Mitchell's wife Grace, Vernon Reynolds and Marion Calhoun. Do either of these names ring a bell in the LDM Community?

Garry

[Roger]

Bushrat,

I also saw the Stone Maps on display in the Mesa Museum in the early 1990's that were in a glass display case. After talking with the Museum staff, I learned that the ones on display were replica's and the real stones were kept in a locked vault in the back of the Museum. I inquired if I could see the real ones and they said yes, but I would have to pay $15/hr for an observer (read college student) to watch me all the time. I did this and took about 2 hrs looking at the stones in the back room on a bench. I made several etchings or rubbings of areas of the stones that I wanted to have more detail on. I also found in this examination that the words "Santa Fe" were scribed into the left hand side (not top, but the edge) of the Horse Stone and that the two "river" lines actually ran around the edge of the stone onto the side. "Santa Fe" was written between these two lines on the left side of the stone. It is obvious that if the two rivers on the Horse Stone are related to the Superstitions, then Santa Fe has to be on the right of these two rivers - not the left. However, since the word lays between the two rivers and the word Rio is shown, one has to reverse the location of "Santa Fe" in mirror fashion which puts it on the correct side.

Had posted this info back a while, but thought it might be of interest to any newcomers.

Roger

Note: Edited on 3/17 to corrrect right/left hand nomenclature error. It now reads correctly.

[Joe Ribaudo]

All,

The story and pictures are now in the "Member Archive".

Respectfully,

Joe

[novice]

I have read various accounts of the year that Travis Tumlinson gained possession of the Stone Tablets (From 1949 to 1956).

The photo from Dr. Glover's book has a decorative border. From memory, I have seen photos with this same type of border but as I remember they were from an early period and later photos didn't have the decorative border? I have searched the internet trying to find information on the use of these borders but have had no luck. Does anyone have photos with similar borders that they can date or know why they were added?

Again from memory I thought this type of border had disappeared by the 1950s.

Another bit of trivia. I suspect the auto in the photo of the tablets is a 1939 Oldsmobile (the grill design is the key feature). See the Member Archives for a Photo. I was also experimenting with posting documents and added some Funeral Home records for Travis Tumlinson.

Garry

[LARRY WEBB]

novice

Those photos were fairly common in the early 1950's. I have numerous
pictures taken when I was small that have the same border.

Larry

[novice]

Larry,

Your information was exactly what I was looking for!

We went to visit my mother-in-law yesterday and I got into her old photos. I found several with various geometric designs around the border. I also found many with the simple blank border, others with a raised (Embossed) border and many with a "pinking shear" type border.

Those I found with the border pattern similar to the Tablet photo (in her colection) stopped about 1942. From my search, I was beginning to believe that the photo was probably taken before the accepted 1949-1956 time period.

Your information of similar photos from the early 1950s planted my feet back on solid ground.

Thanks,
Garry

[novice]

Does anyone know when Clarence Mitchell died and where? Is there any truth to the story he was killed in auto accident on Tom Mix Hwy...the road between Florence and Tucson?

Thanks,

Garry

[Mike McChesney]

Novice,

Congratulations! You hit the nail on the head. The car is indeed a 1939 Oldsmobile (car not truck). I have it from a good source, very close to the family, that Travis Tumlinson ALWAYS drove Oldsmobiles! And as that is the case, the 1939 is the ONLY one it could be.

Best-Mike

[Mike McChesney]

The perspective is a little off, but the details are there.

Mike

[Cubfan64]

Novice,

Congratulations! You hit the nail on the head. The car is indeed a 1939 Oldsmobile (car not truck). I have it from a good source, very close to the family, that Travis Tumlinson ALWAYS drove Oldsmobiles! And as that is the case, the 1939 is the ONLY one it could be.

Best-Mike

Mike - the 1939 Oldsmobile was the car we eventually decided it was on TreasureNet as well after going through a number of possibilities.

I still haven't located one yet that I can take a set of "mock up" stone maps to and place on the bumper to see if I can replicate that old photo. Maybe one of these days.

[Mike McChesney]

I'll tell you what the absolute final lock for me was; In the little bit of the grill that is attached to the front of the hood, there is a very specific shape. I tried to recreate it as best I could. See attached pic for details.

Mike

[Cubfan64]

Yup - if you remember the discussion on TNet it was that same specific area that locked us in on the 1939 Olds as well.

The other thing was the number of "slits" in the grill section above the bumper - couldn't find another truck or car in that time frame that matched.

I would love to get a set of mockup stones made with the exact same dimensions (all of them - L/W/H) - made of cardboard, wood or foam or something and find someone with a 39 Oldsmobile that would allow me to try to duplicate the photo just to confirm in my mind that what we see in that old photo are the exact stones that have been displayed as the "originals."

Just one of a multitude of things I have on my ever growing agenda of things to do.

[Mike McChesney]

I don't even need that. Just give me a picture where the car is oriented properly and I can Photoshop the stones onto it. I can play with skewing the stones, but not the car.

This is the closest I have found so far.

Mike

[Cubfan64]

That works, but unless you have the exact measurements of the front grill for the 39 Olds, how do you know what scale to use?

[Mike McChesney]

Easy,

Just use the original picture for scale. If I have a car with the correct angle (X, Y, and Z planes), then I can just recreate the picture with the old B&W stones. If it leaves the same details, then it is right.

From what I know for certain though, since Travis T. ALWAYS drove Oldsmobiles, there is no other Olds that even comes close. I can tell you that the matter is settled as my source is 100%. I don't need any further corroboration.

Anybody that wants to discuss it is more than welcome, but I am satisfied.

Mike

[Cubfan64]

I'm completely convinced that the vehicle is a 1939 Olds, however I've heard some claims that the stones in the B&W photo are NOT the same ones that have been displayed for years - I just wanted to convince myself that isn't even a possibility.

I can see what you're doing with photoshop - I just think it would only take slight differences in the angles of photos to skew things - I was hoping to come as close as I could to the "real" thing.

[Mike McChesney]

It IS possible that the stones there are not the ones that are in the SMHS Museum.

What is hard to tell in that picture is what are cracks in the pic versus cracks in the stones. The only one I can say for certain are the two cracks in the heart insert. You also can't see the dagger on the upper trail stone.

,,,,,, and the other wrench in the gears would be the Peck Letters in which his investigator claims one of Tumlinson's good friends said that Travis told him that he had altered (at least) the six zeros on the back of the heart insert (maybe that's how it was broken),

Best-Mike

[zentull]

Mike,

Bob Garman said that Robert told him the same thing about the zeros and other markings. I don't know if Garman was Pecks source or others knew as well.

[alan m]

Hello Mike
In regards to the heart stone, do you know who or how the cracks were glued together?
This has puzzled me for some time, it is difficult to tell from observation.
If travis glued the heart stone together after breaking it then the glue, whatever it is should be of recent origin.
Just a thought
Best Regards
Alan

[Mike McChesney]

Alan,

No idea. Jim Hatt came up with the idea to have the bonding agent tested, but the SMHS Board nixed that idea post-haste. Their reasoning was that it was their job to display the Stone Maps, not to verify their authenticity. HHHHHHMMMMMMMM

Wayne,

Check out the pics I have added. Without checking my records, I think it was Azmula that told me before MOEL broke up, Mitchell had an exact set of duplicate stone maps made up, kept two originals and two dupes for himself, and gave two originals and two dupes to Elgin Kriewald. As many people have outright dismissed this story, I never totally did. The comparison work I did on the Lower Trail Map looks like the stones on the bumper of Travis Tumlinson's '39 Olds just MIGHT NOT be the same Stone Maps that currently reside at the SMHS Museum. Now, granted, the old B&W Pic was damaged, so I left out what was not obvious:

1. In the old pic, there is what appears to be another hole to the left of the large hole. This smaller hole is not on the current stone.

2. What looks to be a long crack along the bottom of the stone in the old pic does not appear on the current stone. This is not a crease in the picture because if you look at the large old pic the crack starts at the left edge of the stone and ends at the bottom.

3. The little "M" mountain that is on the current stone is not on the old one. It's not like the lines don't exactly match up. The symbol is just not on the old one.

Now for my disclaimers. LOL For number one, there is a crease that goes through the picture right where that smaller hole resides. It is possible that it is part of the photo defect, but it does not look like it. Nothing for number two. For number three, it is remotely possible that the area in question is covered with dirt. It does not appear so, buuuut.

Now, I had to play with many facets of the old picture to get it's perspective to match my picture of the current one. In order to get a match, I had to adjust the following: Brightness, Contrast, Skew, Perspective, and Sharpness. This is the reason I did not include other small irregularities.

Conclusion: It is entirely possible that the Stone Maps in the old B&W Pic are not the same ones currently on display. IMHO

Mike