The FIRST Set of STONE MAPS

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
LARRY WEBB
Greenhorn
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:58 pm
Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS

The FIRST Set of STONE MAPS

Post by LARRY WEBB »

Has anyone read or heard anything about a set of Stone Maps being
discovered in a Mission in Mexico? They supposedly disappeared shortly
after being discovered. It's my belief that this set of Stone Maps was the
first set of Stone Maps and they were left at the Mission for safe keeping.
ANYONE?

Respectfully

Larry
Roger
Part Timer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

Stone Map Copies

Post by Roger »

Larry, I believe someone posted on the Forum that the original Peraltr Stone maps were not found by Travis Tumlinson out near Queens Creek but this story was just a ruse for a cover-up on their real origin. The story offered was that the maps were actually stolen from a church in Mexico and brought to the U.S. and the story of their finding fabricated to cover up the theft.

Haven't had time to dig through the Forum, but maybe someone else can remember the specific posting or details.

Roger
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

I suspect there are more detailed references in the forum posts but in Part 5 of Azmula's Articles on the Home Page he offered the following.
In the early 1900’s Priests working in the Church in Arizpe, Sonora, Mexico, found a set of Stone Maps. It was determined by the Mexican INAH that these antiquities along with some...

old Church documents should be transferred to Mexico City for control and safekeeping. During the trip to Mexico City the courier took ill and died. The maps and documents were left in the city of his death. The documents are still there but the maps were stolen and sold in the mid 1900’s near the Juarez/El Paso border town.
Some concrete documentation should exist if this story is correct. I would bet someone has tried to run this down?

I know absolutely nothing about the stone maps but I was curious about the Tumlinsons. How were Robert and Travis related? I'm sure they weren't brothers?

I was reading Dobie's book Coronado's Children and he speaks about Peg Leg Tumlinson. This is apparently John J. Tumlinson (1848-1920). Would anyone happen to know if or how Robert Tumlinson is related. I'm pretty sure the Tumlinsons originated in Texas?

Novice
LARRY WEBB
Greenhorn
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:58 pm
Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS

Post by LARRY WEBB »

novice

What makes you think that they weren't brothers? I didn't know about
Robert until Dr. Glover's book. Travis Marlowe (Clarence Mitchell) wrote
that Travis Tumlinson found the maps. So, he must have passed them to
his older brother Robert and then on his death his wife passed them on to
Clarence that ended up getting them taken away through the courts and
then they ended up in the Flagg Foundation.

From some other sources I found that Travis Tumlinson and wife Eileen
lived in Hood River, Oregon. He would spend hours trying to figure out the
maps with an uncle that he was named after. Maybe his full name was
Robert Travis Tumlinson!!!!! In the Marlowe book Travis's wife passed
them to Mitchell. In Dr. Glover's book Mitchell got them from Robert,
Travis Tumlinson brother.

Did that just make things worse?

Thanks Larry
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Larry

I had found both Tumlinsons in the Oregon Death Index (1903-1998) on Ancestry.com

Travis E. Tumlinson, Hood River County, OR (Died Apr 1961 at the age of 51) Wife Alleen

Robert G. Tumlinson, Multnomah County, OR (Died Apr 20, 1965 at the age of 81)

From that I calculated that Travis was born about 1910 and Robert was born about 1884. Robert was much older and the Uncle story seems to fit better.

From some more recent research, I believe that Travis' father was John Tumlinson.

I haven't read Mitchell's book and they are going for $100 and more on the internet!

You mentioned other sources. Were they from publications or oral?

Garry
LARRY WEBB
Greenhorn
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:58 pm
Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS

Post by LARRY WEBB »

novice

The reason for all the secrecy about the Tumlinsons was because of the
relative in Texas that was known as Peg-Leg. I have found no first name
other than Peg-Leg or no skeletons that would have been an embarrasement other than he was a TREASURE HUNTER! Perhaps if it
were known that the Tumlinsons had a Spanish map as a result of the
father being in that line of work, the family knew that there could be
trouble. So, they protected their idenity from the beginning as much as
possible.

The Tumlinsons, Travis, Eileen and daughter Janie, managed a fruit camp
where different kinds of fruit was processed for shipment. Travis was
also a foreman at a cold storage area. He also had a third job where he
was some kind of deputy and mostly just kept order in the camp.

Robert Tumlinson worked as some kind of a mechanic, mostly retired,
and worked on the Stone Maps with Dr. Gene Davis before he died.
From there the Stone Maps were given to Clarence Mitchell by Eileen
according to Mitchell and another couple they were friendly with.

Travis and the uncle (Robert) were real close until one summer they were
checking out some things on the maps and the uncle found a Spanish Pack
saddle, a watch set with a ruby, a jeweled crucifix, a musket and a few
other things.

Larry
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Stone Tablets

Post by novice »

Larry,

That's more information than I would ever be able to come up with. THANKS FOR SHARING!

All,

I have been doing some additional work on this family the last couple of days. If you do a search on "Peg Leg Tumlinson", you should get a few hits.

I, probably as much as anyone, realize the danger of putting too much faith in Genealogy information taken from the web but I would like to share some on "Peg Leg" that I "suspect" is good?

John Jackson (Peg Leg) TUMLINSON
b: 1848 in DeWitt Co., Texas d: January 31, 1920 in Sutherland Springs, Wilson Co., Texas
Burial: Steel Branch Cem. Stockdale, Wilson Co., Texas

From another researcher's web site I found the family for Peg Leg listed.

John J. "Peg Leg" Tumlinson
Birth: 1848 – Dewitt, TX
Death: 31 Jan 1920 – Sutherland Springs, Wilson, TX
Spouses
Isabelle G. "Belle" Chrisip (Abt 1846 –)
Marriage: 8 Mar 1866 – Dewitt, TX
Children:
1. Bob Tumlinson (Est 1867 - )
2. Daisy Tumlinson (Est 1869 - )
3. Littie Tumlinson (Est 1871 - )
4. Penelope Barthena Tumlinson (Est 1873 - )
5. Joseph William "Will" Tumlinson (Est 1875 – 1923)
6. Kate Tumlinson (Est 1878 - )
7. John Jackson Tumlinson (1882 – 1957)

From my own research (Census Data), I believe that the 7th child, John Jackson Tumlinson is the father of our Travis E. Tumlinson.

My believe is that John Jackson "Peg Leg" Tumlinson (From Coronado's Children, Dobie) was the Grandfather of Travis Tumlinson

As far as Robert G. Tumlinson's relationship to Travis, it would only be speculation on my part. (Perhaps he was the 8th child of "Peg Leg" who this researcher missed?)

Larry,

I understand your comment about the family trying to maintain secrecy about their tie to "Peg Leg". When I first began to make the connection my antenna went up! Peg Leg was not a casual treasure hunter but it appears to me he spent a great portion of his life pursuing Spanish Treasures in Texas. Travis was probably raised on those stories? With this background it became much more difficult to accept the scenario that Travis was simply a tourist passing by the Superstitions and stumbled over the tablets!

Footnote: The Tumlinson Family is sprinkled all over Texas history. The were participants in the Austin Colony, Alamo, Goliad, San Jacinto, Texas Rangers, etc.

I don't feel like I have a very good handle on the chronology of the tablets, from their appearance in the U. S. until Clarence Mitchell received them.

Robert Tumlinson showed the tablets to Gene Davis circa 1956? Robert was in Portland and it is presumed that Travis was still in Hood River.

This was 5 years before Travis died. Had his health failed and he had already abandoned the search? Gene Davis thought that Robert had gotten them by simply removing the tablets from the trunk of Travis' car and took them for safe keeping. (Without permission?)

Robert also apparently had a partner before Gene Davis. This might push the time frame back further for Travis' involvement in the search or at least his involvement with Robert?

I'll save additional questions until I can digest what information I have. Thanks Again.

Garry
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Roger,

I want to thank you for sharing the source (in another thread) for the Jack and Bernice McGee article on the Stone Tablets. I was able to get the Frontier Times article and for me it was very interesting, particularly as it related to the history of the tablets. My wife and I just returned from Texas and did manage to chase down a couple of items and the story was very helpful. It seems the McGees wrote some additional articles on early artifacts (Big Bend Tablet, Rune Stone, etc.) and my take is that they were very honest in their research! The Peralta Tablet story appears to be printed just as they wrote it with very little editing by the magazine.

All,

From what I can gather, the McGee’s article was the first time that Travis Tumlinson was publicly identified as the owner of the tablets (1973). Of course there were those in the Dutchman community who already knew Travis’s identity. The McGee’s interviewed a couple who went by Don and Pam Hanson (fictitious) and their account of the Tumlinsons appears to be, for the most part right on. In their account, they saw Eileen Tumlinson and her daughter Janie in April of 1961 and Eileen told them she had returned the body of Travis to Texas for burial and she was getting her personal affairs in Oregon together and she planned on moving back to Texas from Hood River. The dates and names were a little off but the basic story was correct.

I want to correct an error up front about the death date of Travis taken from the Oregon Death Index. It was given as April of 1961 and that is what I had previously posted. From our research Travis Tumlinson actually died October 4, 1961 in Hood River, Oregon.

We were able to locate the Funeral Home Records that handled the body in Texas. We also visited the cemetery and took a photo of Travis and Alleen’s tombstone. Travis’s father and mother are also buried there along with a brother and sister. We also believe his Grandfather “Peg Leg” Tumlinson is buried there also but he has no stone.

Travis Elmo Tumlinson was born April 21, 1910 in Fairview, Wilson County, Texas to John Jackson Tumlinson and Alice Leasman. Travis was the first born of 7 children who reached adulthood. John seems to have been a tenant farmer and the family appears to have moved around quite a bit. On December 17, 1938, Travis married Alleen Salles in DeWitt County, Texas. Travis was 28 and Alleen was 18. They were to have one child, Alice Jane Tumlinson. It is not clear when the family left Texas but it may have been sometime after World War II. The only hint we have is that in the funeral record for Travis, Alleen stated they had lived in Hood River about 10 years prior to the death of Travis in 1961. They may well have been gone from Texas and lived somewhere else before moving to Hood River.

Travis died October 4, 1961 in Hood River, Oregon and the body was returned to Stockdale, Wilson County, Texas and he was buried October 10, 1961 in the Stockdale City Cemetery. Travis was only 51. Travis’s father had died November 4, 1957 in Cuero, DeWitt County, Texas and his wife, Alice had him buried in Stockdale in what was possibly a Tumlinson family plot. When Travis died, his mother Alice, was probably the driving factor in returning the body to Texas although he rests in a different area of the cemetery from his mother and father.

Less than two years after the death of Travis, his wife Alleen Salles Tumlinson also died (July 11. 1963). She was only 42. We have no additional information on their daughter, Alice Jane.

We were unable to locate an obituary for Travis or his father in Texas. We looked in the Floresville and Cuero newspapers. We did find one for "Peg Leg" but there was no mention of his treasure hunting. We also found short obituaries for Travis's wife (Alleen) and his mother (Alice).

We found no smoking gun where "Peg Leg" had the tablets and was passing them on. :)

We also recorded some additional information on our Robert Garland Tumlinson and "Peg Leg" but we want to try and run down some additional info on both individuals. Robert was the youngest son of “Peg Leg” Tumlinson and Travis’s Uncle.

The chronology and movement of the stone tablets is pretty confusing for me at this time with a lot of conflicting accounts. I have a lot of additional questions that I suspect someone can help me with but I'll hold off on those.

Any thoughts or possible leads would be appreciated.

Does anyone know the source of the Photo of the Tablets on the Automobile Bumper?

Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Sources

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

The source for the picture is known, but I believe it is confidential.

You guys are amazing. Hope you keep up the great work, and continue sharing with those of us who are interested in the history of it all. I will try to find out if there is any way the source for the picture can be made available to someone like you. I am certain that information is not to be made public.

Respectfully,

Joe
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Robert G. Tumlinson

Post by novice »

Robert Tumlinson's activity regarding the Stone Tablets seems to be almost as involved as that of his nephew Travis Tumlinson. I want to share some additonal background on Robert that may help frame the story.

Robert Garland Tumlinson was born October 29, 1883 in Wilson County, Texas. He was the youngest child of John Jackson "Peg Leg" Tumlinson and Isabelle Cresap. his parents had married March 8, 1866 in DeWitt County Texas and they had seven children to reach adulthood. Robert's brother, was Travis's father, John Jackson Tumlinson who was only about 18 months older than Robert. We can speculate that they may may have been close when growing up. A third brother, Joseph William, was about 14 years older.

When Robert was just over two, his mother Isabelle died. Isabelle Tumlinson had purchased land in Wilson County. Peg Leg was not involved and we can only speculate that perhaps Isabelle received some inheritance from her parents and it was her seperate estate. Isabelle died December 31, 1885 and in another court document it was stated that her husband had no rights to the land and it belonged to her children. This all seems a little bit strange but perhaps Isabelle thought John wasn't terribly responsible and she was trying to protect the estate for the future benefit of their children?

We have been unable to determined what "Peg Leg's" role was in rearing the children after their mother's death. In 1892 we do find him seeking guardianship of the minor children of his wife's estate. Two other men posted bond for John and he was granted guardianship. A couple of years later we find a judgement obtained against John and it appears the sheriff was selling possibly a portion of Isabelle's estate. (We didn't have time to go into detail regarding this transaction)

Very little is know regarding Robert's early years. From court documents surrounding the disposition of his mother's estate, we know that he lived in Karnes County, Texas for a while but by 1892 Robert and his siblings were back in Wilson County.

By 1920, Robert had left Texas and was listed in the Census of Spokane, Washington. Robert (36) along with his wife Elena May (42) born in Wisconsin were listed. There were no children. Robert's occupation was a Fruit Farmer. (Travis was later involved in the Fruit Industry in Hood River, Oregon) There was a statement in Peg Leg's obituary (1920) that he had two sons living in Washington and one in Atascosa County, Texas. We beleive the other son in Washington was most likely Joseph. By the 1930 census Robert (46) was in Tulare County, California and he had a different wife, Preeble (37), they had three daughters, ages five three and one and Robert was a Steam Pipefitter.

The remaining information we have for Robert is contained in Dr. Glover's book with the exception of his death in Multnomah County, Oregon, April 20, 1965.

Garry
P. S. (Just a Sidelight) I don't know if anyone is familiar with the Taylor Sutton Fued in Texas but Peg Leg's father, Joseph Tumlinson was a leader of the Sutton faction. John Wesley Hardin was a leader of the Taylor faction and he led a party in an attack of Joe Tumlinson's home (Fortress). It would seem that Peg Leg was almost certainly involved in the fued but we have not found a specific reference to him.
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

Rock Maps

Post by bill711 »

My earliest remembrence of the stone maps was in magizine articles in the very late or early 1950,s/1960,s of Travis Marlo stone map search. His wife suposedly sold the maps because of their house car, being broken into and burgled. I can,t remember if the Travis was alive then or not. They went back to Texas about that time. I think the selling price was about 500. to 700.00 dollars back then. I do not know if this true or not it is just what the article said??? bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Good Work

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

You are certainly doing your homework. Very nice job.

Having been a pipefighter myself for many years, I found the mention of
Robert's line of work interesting.

Few historians call the Sutton/Taylor Feud "Taylor Sutton" but I have seen it that way before. Anyone who reads history should have read some of Robert M. Utley's works, and he does mention the feud and a bit on John Wesely Hardin's involvement in "Lone Star Justice: The First Century of the Texas Rangers".

For those who really want the whole story, you should read, "The Texas Vendetta; on the Sutton-Taylor Feud". Probably as good as it gets.

Utley describes the shooting of Hardin: "On August 19, 1895, as he (Hardin) stood unsteadily at the bar of the Acme Saloon, Constable John Selman walked in, raised his .45 revolver, and sent three bullets into John Wesley Hardin. It was an ironic ending for one of the West's most famous gunmen, for John Selman himself counted two decades as one of the West's most vicious outlaws. his motives for the slaying are still debated."

Garry, you are the best.

Respectfully,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Life Magazine

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

Life Magazine carried a story by, Richard B. Stolley in it's June 12, 1964 edition. The magazine sold for twenty-five cents back then. A few pictures of the Stone Maps and Marlowe are included.

There is a great shot of Marlow's head peaking over a ledge, one hand griping the edge and one eye visible above the rock. He is wearing a felt hat, Indiana Jones style. The photographer was Bill Ray, and he did know how to set up a dramatic picture.

There is a very good quality picture (close-up) of the Priest Stone. The fang is very obvious. I have some high resolution photos of the stones in the museum under different lighting conditions, and I have my doubts that they are of the same tablet.

Marlow was still alive when the article was done. No mention of the wife or any sale, for any amount. Nice job of dredging up an old story. Wish my memory was that good. :cry:

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

stone maps

Post by bill711 »

Joe; It must be that it was later in the sixties than I was thinking; after I had some think time; I believe that travis must have been dead because the story was about how she was receiving phone threats and her house and car being burgled several times and she was afraid to keep the stones. MY ERROR :roll: I apologize to ALL. I can,t remember the magizine tho. I used to read everything looking for something for anything on treasure hunting and tips on reading the signs.. Bill 8) Strange I have a sister living in spokan wa. also uncles and couzins where Travis lived.
rochha
Part Timer
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:19 pm

Post by rochha »

Joe,

I believe that you are right about the stones, I dont think the stones in the az mines and mineral muesum are the originals that are from Dr. Glovers book and the life magazine article.

Rochha
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

OK you guys are confusing me! I know this may be well worn ground for most but I don't have a clue. I haven't spent anytime looking at the pictures of the maps so please go slow!

If I understand what you're saying, the photo of the Tablets on the bumper and the photo in Life Magazine (1964) are of the original stones associated with Travis and Robert Tumlinson. Those stones that are now in possession of Flagg Foundation are bogus replicas?

What is the fang?

We do know that those now being displayed are Natural Stone and not castings? I believe these are the ones that Roger examined?

I would be interested in any scenario about how this could be!

Help me out!

Joe, your are correct. It is referred to as Sutton-Taylor Feud. For anyone wanting to read a quick overview of the story, you might like to try this link from the Handbook of Texas Online.

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/onl ... /jcs3.html

I was trying to figure out the member acrchives procedure and as a test I did post a photo of the Tombstone of Travis Tumlinson.

Garry
rochha
Part Timer
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:19 pm

stones

Post by rochha »

Novice,

You are following pretty good, the stones in the museum are not the ones depicted in Dr. Glovers book or the Life magazine article that was done in the 60's.

I have been to the museum and photographed and handled the stones, my first impression when I saw them was they were too small. The stones in Dr. Glovers book are bigger than the ones at the museum.

The " fang " Joe is talking about is coming out of the Priest's mouth! It is clear as day. On the other stones it is not so clear.

Also, there was a recent article in the Arizona Highways magazine about the stones, they describe them as being 25 lbs each and 10 x 17. The stones at the az mines and minersls museum are not 25 lbs each and I believe they are smaller than the dimensions given.

Kind makes you wonder where the originals are and why they were switched.

Hope this helps clear things up.

Rochha
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Rocha,

I guess I was oblivious to the Title of Larry's thread "The FIRST set of Stone Maps". I did wonder if someone had ever tried to identify where the Sandstone originated. Are there sandstone formations in the Superstitions that match those in the museum? I am assuming that the Flagg Stone Maps were mechanically fabricated? Sounds like quite an effort!

If things are as you suggest, it seems to me that Clarence Mitchell or the Flagg Foundation had to be in the middle of fabricating the second set of stones?

A lot to think about!

Thanks, Garry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Positive......Almost

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry and Rochha,

I am not sure I would say that the stones in the museum are positively not the originals. It seems unlikely, but the lighting that was used to take the pictures makes a lot of difference. The dagger does not seem to be on the maps in the original picture.

I will be happy to scan the pictures in Life, and send them to anyone interested.

As for size, I believe the stones in the museum are the same size. I found out the dimensions of the light on the car, and using that came up with about the same measurements.

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

stones

Post by bill711 »

NOW, Was this Tumelson the man who was always telling DOBIE That he knew where there was gold BUT He never would elaberate, And when he and the Dobie were supose to go and find it ; the Dobia found that he had left to go pick cherries in wash. state??? bill 8) :lol: I was disapointed in DOBIE he seemed anti-treasure hunting to me. He put treasure hunters in a bad lite...like nutty to me...
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

stones

Post by bill711 »

Joe were the stones ever in the magazine argasy ?? bill 8)
Gregory E. Davis
Part Timer
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:19 am
Location: Tempe, Arizona

Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Joe; I just received a letter from Mr. Leo Gephart, a dealer in Antique and Classic Cars. He believes the car in the picture with the Stone Maps is a 1940 Oldsmobile, however he is only 75% sure. He said: "There is just not enough detail of the car to be able to make an accurate identification", however he will be showing the picture at the shows he attends to see if someone can make a positive identification. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Size Matters

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Greg,

I did the same thing when we were discussing this awhile back. The year and model are close, but I was told it does not make that much difference as that style was the same size for all models. I believe the size of the lights were around 9" tall, but would need to check my notes at home.

That would fit with the size given for the Stone Maps if you make the comparison.

Respectfully,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Mag's.

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

Don't know if Argosy ever carried a Stone Map story. I also have no idea if there is any Dobie/Tumelson story that is factual.

Looks like no one is interested in the Life pictures. Everyone must have their own copies. I can scan them to e-mail.

Respectfully,

Joe
Roger
Part Timer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

Chuck Kenworthy Stone Map Photo's

Post by Roger »

Chuck Kenworhty gained access to the original stones and then made special photographs of them. In his hand written letter to me dated 7/3/92 he describes the photo's as being:

"Infra Red photos that were dodged and bleached".

This methodology supposedly will bring out very faint markings that may not be seen with the naked eye and enhance the visible markings.

Chuck supplied me a copy of these photo's on the above date. There is no evidence of a "fang" on the Priest face. There is a "v" shaped opening for the mouth but it has a curved line that completely closes that "v" and forms a chin. No sign of a fang.

Roger
Post Reply