This is my own work with the exception of the ouote from Lost Mines and Hidden Treasure by Lovelace, and the Father Sedlemayr (Jesuit Priest that followed Kino) map that that comes from a book by the Arizona Historical Society.
The map clearly shows that in 1744 Sedlemayr went all the way to the Salt River due North of Casa Grande. AND THEY SAY THAT THE JESUITS NEVER VENTURED NORTH OF CASA GRANDE
If this offends someone I'm sorry, but I think there is a limit to what people can claim as their own sacred area.
Jan
Last edited by Jan on Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
I don't understand why you deleated your post, but everyone is not gone.
Without knowing the original sources for the story, it would be hard to research the conclusions. Perhaps there was something in the boxs of research material.
I was hoping someone would reply who had some knowledge of the specific story that was told.
One of the problems that I see, is the timing for the story. The "white strangers" are believed to have been among the Papago prior to the Apache presence in the Southwest. They "lived" with them for a period of time. Reading between the lines, it seems unlikely it was just a short period.
Even if the story matches the arrival of the Apache and the Spaniards, which could be around the same period, the part about the number of strangers living among the Papago seems unlikely to match Jesuit involvement for that period.
It would be interesting to hear the reasoning behind your deleating your post. I have no idea what is accomplished by folks doing that.
About the only thing in the story that a person could get a handle on as far as any kind of a clue was the artifacts at the University that had the Latin inscriptions. I have photos of those articles coming to me in the mail. I am told there are also some symbols on them that don't make any sense. I am curious if there are any hearts or triangles.
re: people deleting posts - Seems like you can't post anything on here any more without stepping on someone's toes. I probably should have worded the statement differently when I deleted it, but I didn't want to stir anything up.
Seems like everything I find of interest lately, someone else is already heavily involved in it, has been working on it for a long time, and would rather not have it brought out in open discussion.
PEOPLE ARE Sooooooooo SECRETIVE!!!!!!!!. Geeeeeeeeeeze!!!!!!!!!
Everything I posted has been published for over 50 years.
Sorry Joe, don't take it personal, it had nothing to do with you. It's just one of those things......................................
I did not take it personal, at all. I was just trying to understand why anyone would deleat their posts. Most posts, of any consequence, are printed out or copied in some manner by many of the members of this forum. I have a few pages myself.
ABOUT 1774 CAPT. JUAN BAUTISTA DE ANZA WAS ASKED TO MAKE AN
EXPEDITION UP THE SANTA CRUZ RIVER FROM TUBAC AND HE WENT
VERY CLOSE TO THE AREA YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. A YEAR LATER IN ABOUT 1775 HE MADE ANOTHER TRIP TO COLONIZE THE AREA. MAYBE
THIS IS SOME OF HIS DOINGS. JUST A THOUGHT!
The Juan Bautista de Anza you are speaking of, was the third army officer from that family, all with the same name.
Actually he was a lieutenant colonel of cavalry in 1775, and on Sept. 29 "he marched from San Miguel de Horasitas to found and colonize San Francisco" "PATHS OF THE PADRES THROUGH SONORA" by, Paul M. Roca
I believe Anza was also in California in 1774. Monterey to be specific.
That is very interesting and very close to the time period (1751) that I am interested in. In consideration of Joe's added information it might be possible that his father had either been to the area before him, or had heard stories about the area that he passed on to his son. I intend to visit with some of the current locals in the area to see if they know how Jesuit Hill got it's name.
Jan,
You may want to check a book written by Don Shade called Esperanza. There is a short article regarding several metal artifacts that were found in 1924 by a man named Charles Manier at an old lime kiln site on the Silver Bell Road northwest of Tucson. Complete with drawings of the artifacts and the inscriptions. Pgs 73-76.
As Don Shade pointed out, the use of A.D. on the artifacts pretty much reveals them to be fakes. There have been a number of such "artifacts" usually found by Mormons, that have been shown to be modern forgeries.
Jan,
The father of Juan Bautista de Anza, III was killed by the Apache in 1739.
I have the information here, if you are interested in further history of the Anza family.
I have had more trouble trying to post a reply to this, but here goes another try.
Some points in favor of this story: there has been much gold recovered from this area and as of 35 years ago I knew of one Papago who in his spare time was still recovering placer gold. Also, months ago I found a web site which had what was suppose to be an old map showing trails/roads in the area of the story with a placer area noted that would match into this story.
If anyone might be interested in what I was told by a fellow construction worker that might tie into the tale, but is probably a long-shot, about a possible very old mine in this area. I have had this filed away in my memory waiting for a time I would get to pursue it further but it now looks as if I am fast running out of time. If interested people would contact me via private messages on this site I would be happy to share what little info I have.
If there is anyone who might have knowledge of the web site where I saw this map would you share that info with me as I am interested in old placers.
I assume you have done this, but entering "papago placer" in my address bar brought a lot of sites to visit. It's possible the site you are looking for is one of them.
FOR WHAT ITS WORTH, THERE IS A BOOK CALLED "SPANISH & MEXICAN
RECORDS OF THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST" BY HENRY PUTNEY BEERS
AND IT HAS NEW MEXICO, ARIZONA, CALIFORNIA AND TEXAS RECORDS.
IT HAS RECORDS ABOUT HISTORY AND GOVERNMENT, PROVINCIAL,
LEGISLATIVE, ARCHIVAL REPRODUCTIONS, DOCUMENTARY PUBLICATIONS, MANUSCRIPT COLLECTIONS, LAND RECORDS AND
ECCLESIASTICAL RECORDS IN EACH STATE. BUT MORE IMPORTANT IS
THE HUGE BIBLIOGRAHY THAT IS PACKED WITH INFORMATION THAT
TELLS WHERE ALL OF THE RECORDS, COLLECTIONS, ETC. ARE KEPT.
YOU PROBABLY ALREADY KNOW ABOUT THE BOOK OR HAVE A COPY BUT
I THOUGHT I WOULD BRING IT TO YOUR ATTENTION.
JAN HI . I AM HAPPY THAT YOU REPOSTED YOUR INFORMATION. IT TAKES ME AWHILE TO DIGEST. ON ANOTHER NOTE ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO IN THE LIBARY OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI ,I FOUND A BOOK "MAGGS BROS" DEALERS IN FINE AND RAE BOOKS,LONDON. IN THE CATALOGUE APPEARS A LETTER DATED JANUARY 1617 BY THE JESUIT GENERAL TO HIS MISSIONARIES.THE LETTER ASK THE MISSIONARIES TOFOLLOW THE EXAMPLEOF ST FRANCIS XAVIERN THEIR REVERENCE AND HUMILITY. IT SEEMS BACK IN 1617 THE JESUIT ARE BLAMED FOR AMASSING RICHES,THEY ARE POLITICAL RATHER THEN SPIRTITUAL,ANDTHEY PUT THERE HANDS IN EVERTHING.
IN 1765 THE BISHOP OH BUENOS AYERS SENDS A LETTERS TO HIS MOTHER TELLING OF HIS DIS AGREEMENT AND SUFFERINGS AT THE HANDS OF THE JESUITS OF PARAGUAY,HE COMPARES THE JESUITS GOVERNOR OF PARAGUAY TO PHARAO AND BEGS GOD TO SEND HIM MOSES TO DRIVE HIM OUT. A FRANCISCAN FRIAR ALSO STATES BEING VICTIMS OF THE JESUITS. IN 1768 A DOCUMENT TALKS ABOUT THE WAR OF THE JESUITS BETWEEN THE SPANISH TROOPS AND PORTUGUESAS IN URUGUAY AND PARANA. IT APPEARS THAT THERE IS SOME WRITTEN ACOUNT THAT THE JESUITS ARE NOT WHAT THEY APPEAR TO BE . I AM SHURE THAT IF ONE CAN RESEARCH IN OTHERS COUNTRIES YOU MAY FIND MORE INFORMATION. IN COLOMBIA SOUTH AMERICA ABOUT 25 TO 30 YEARS AGO BURGER KING ARRIVED TO THE COUNTRY. THE JJESUITS GOT THE RIGHTS FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY. THEY ARE VERY STRONG POLITICALY AND HAVE VERY RICH LAND HOLDINGS TODAY. WHAT WOULD MAKES THEM ACT SO DIFFERENTS IN ANOTHER PART OF THE WORLD, LIKE THE U.S. ?????? THE BOOK MAGGS BROS CATALOGUE BIBLIOTHECA AMERICANA ET PHILIPPINA PART 1 REF Z 999.M195 NO 429 UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI,FLORIDA
Sharp suggests Herbert Bolton's "Anza's California Expeditions" and it is an excellent source. I am luck enough to have all five volumes of the first edition.
If you can't find the information you are looking for in Bolton's book, I doubt it can be found elswhere.
Rudo Ensayo is a manuscript written by Father Juan Nentvig that is dated 1764. There is a copy of a map he made in 1762 of "Sonora and Areas North" that shows a number of settlements around the Gila and Salt River junction that would indicate this area had been explored earlier and locations named. The named sites along this area (page 15) are:
"The principal (Pima) settlements along the Gila were, on the south side, Tucsonimo'; on the north bank, Sudacson or Encarnacion, which is the residence of Javanimo', their chief; and farther west, the Santa Teresa hamlet with its abundant spring."
Note that some of these plance names are on the map posted above by Jan. The Spanish were into this area very early and it is likely that mining activity was pursued in the area "North of the Gila" in this time frame.
"The Spanish were into this area very early and it is likely that mining activity was pursued in the area "North of the Gila" in this time frame."
Mining in the New World was predicated on a few things outside the presence of valuable ore. Of great importance were: The degree of hostility of the native population in the area, the number of soldiers available for protection, and settlements to support the miners.
Secure supply lines into Mexico were also of great importance. In the case of the area north of the Gila River, you might find a few problems with the factors listed above, at least in 1762.
Rather than being "likely" it seems highly "unlikely" that any mining took place in Arizona, north of the Gila River by any distance. Beyond the difficulties of the time, there are no official documents or records making a case for mining north of the Gila. In all other circumstances, the Spanish were prolific record keepers.
You are correct is saying, "The Spanish were into this area very early...".
It seems a "no brainer" to assume that Father Nentvig was carrying Father Kino's map of Pimeria Alta, which was completed around 1701.
In any case, Father Nentvig was following in the footsteps of Father Kino.
The earliest print of Father Kino's map was in 1705.
Kino's map was compiled from his journeys/explorations which began around 1687.
Some of the above is opinion, but it is based on historical records. I would be happy to supply sources and page numbers for my conclusions, if needed.
“Mining in the New World was predicated on a few things outside the presence of valuable ore. Of great importance were: The degree of hostility of the native population in the area, the number of soldiers available for protection, and settlements to support the miners“……………
And concluded with:
Some of the above is opinion, but it is based on historical records. I would be happy to supply sources and page numbers for my conclusions, if needed.
I fully agree that for some small mining operations all the above is true, however they would not apply to large mining and prospecting expeditions that lived off the land as they traveled and provided for their own defense from the hostiles.
Recorded history (Legends if you care to call it that) tells us that there was a large expedition of Mexican miners massacred sometime around 1848 somewhere in or close to the Superstition mountains. The same history/legend tells us that these Mexicans had been working these same mines for several generations which could easily take us back to the mid 1700’s. These large expeditions would have had their own guards, hunters, cooks, scouts, miners and religious figures that could have been Jesuit Priests.
One of the problems with recorded history is that it is not always correct and more often not always complete. Sources of information are always nice to have, but are not stand alone verification of the accuracy of their information. The creditability of the author and the possibility of self serving interests must be evaluated in each case. For every historical account (recorded/documented history) of an event, there is another account that contradicts it.
ie: The U.S. Cavalry account of Custer’s Last Stand is totally different from the Native American account of the same event.
When an author fills in the blanks of a story, he always fills them in with information that describes the way he would have liked to have had it been. Over time, it becomes “accepted fact“ until another author publishes his own version of the account and both accounts become “disputed fact”.
American history is a conglomerate of “Disputed facts” that are constantly being rewritten and, Arizona history is even worse because of the influence of a multitude of Legends of Gold and Silver mines that further complicate the facts.
When one person gives Barry Storm or Sims Ely as a reference he is sure to raise some eyebrows. They both had strong and evident self serving interests that influenced the content and conclusions of their versions of recorded history. The late Father Polzer has likewise been quoted in many debates over the Jesuit involvement in the manufacture of the “Peralta” stone maps, and as it has been previously pointed out in this forum and others, Polzer had his own self serving interests to protect which may have influenced his documented opinions and conclusions. No doubt modern day authors that are still actively searching for the Gold of the Superstitions struggle with some of the same obstacles that keep them from telling everything as they know it to be.
Sources of information are nice to have, but proof of nothing, except what an individual author believed or in some cases would like to lead you to believe. The problem is and always has been, what recorded history or documented information to accept and what to dismiss. Being able to quote a source for information does not conclude anything, it just elevates the debate to a higher level.
What you say has a lot of truth in it. I was going to say much the same when you were quoting Mowry, but.....
Romanticizing historical events, such a Custer's Last Stand, is to be expected. It may be so for both sides of the battle. So far, neither side has said the battle took place in Kansas, or was actually fought between Apache and Spanairds.
While the details have been muddied, the overall historical results remain the same.
Since I don't know anyone who was around during "Little Big Horn", I prefer to accept the "best evidence" available. The same holds true for Jesuit/Spanish mining in Arizona. If it were true, there would be documents somewhere. Just one "verifiable" document would be nice.
Your "Mowery" point is understood. My comments on references and sources apply to my own as well as others. Something I struggle with all the time.
"Verifiable Documents" pertaining to "covert" activities are rare. When they do exist, they are very filtered.
As a friend of mine is always reminding me, "Where there's smoke, there's fire". Mel Fisher smelled the smoke but it took him 15 years to find the fire (the Atocha) and it turned out NOT to be where the Documented records said it should have been. It didn't matter to him that almost everyone thought he was crazy. He had faith in himself and his understanding of the evidence that it existed, and where it might be found. It could have turned out different for him but he did succeed in the end. I, and others that believe as I do may not succeed like Mel did, but our faith is every bit as strong as his was and it is not likely to fade away as long as we can smell the old smoke and new smoke continues to appear.
This website is dedicated to the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine but I firmly believe that anyone who searches for it without considering the stone maps and the possibility of a connection between them and some kind of Jesuit mining activities in the Superstitions is overlooking what may well be the best "documented evidence" supporting the existence a rich deposit of gold in those mountains.
All evidence is subject to the opinion of the Jury. If they believe it, then there is a conviction. If they do not, then the individual goes free. As the years pass by, the case for the authenticity of the "Peralta" stone maps continues to strengthen and more and more people begin to smell the smoke. Recent years have brought some very talented minds into the Jury evaluating the stone maps and the tide is slowly turning in favor of their validity.
Controversy on the subject is good and welcome. Your opinions are valued no matter which way they tend to lean. Nobody, either by scientific or logical methods, has ever been able to discredit the stone maps to everyone’s satisfaction, and many intelligent and educated individuals have tried. Every time a controversy over the stone maps erupts, they rise in popularity and acquire a larger following of supporters.
They continue to defy all attempts to discredit them and I suspect they always will.
The problem with the Atocha did not really focus on documentation as much as distance from the shore. Considering the conditions when she went down, an accurate location was iffy. Just needed to get closer to the coast.
I was not making a point about the overall message in your post. It goes without saying, that "Faith, and Perseverance" are a requisite in treasure hunting.
No need for the "test". I was only making an observation as to why it took Fisher so long to find the Atocha. He was locked into deep water, same as a good many Dutch Hunters/Stone Mappers. Made a fairly simple decision and started jerking the gold out of the water.
Jan & Joe; It didn,t help Mel,s map of the ATOCHA when the wind pushed the remaines of the wreck and almost all the gold another 12 miles either! To you both great and interesting post! I have a question? Would Oklahoma be considered North of the Gila Rio? There is the remaines of an old anceint spanish mining settlement in the SE corner of Ok. would that be considered N of the Gila?? bill
I would offer that the example of Mel Fisher makes an even more basic point.
Mel Fisher had stationed his operation in the Middle Keys below Miami searching for the Nuestra Senora de Atocha in places that everyone else had be searching based on the limited information available at the time. The key break came when Mel retained Eugene Lyon to search the Spanish archives at Seville, Spain, in 1969. Eugene was able to stumble onto a record of the Atocha actually sinking near teh "Cayo de Marquesa Keys". This turns out to be the modern Marquesa Keys below Key West. Mel moved his operation to Key West and after a long, hard hunt, was finally able to locate the Atocha.
The point being that researching old records, old maps, oral histories, prior author research, trail markers in the field, etc are all part of modern treasure hunting.
These items may be reshaped for a multitude ofreasons for better or worse. The key is to find the "kernel" of truth from this morass and decipher the puzzle before someone else.
Also note that Chuck Kenworthy later retained the services of Eugene Lyon and Eugene found the Spanish rules for map making as required by Spanish law for the New World in those same Seville archieves. Wonder if that information plus the Peralta Stone Maps might lead to another treasure?
