Court trial over the ore under Waltz's bed when he died

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redison
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Court trial over the ore under Waltz's bed when he died

Post by redison »

I have heard it said by a number of people that there was a court trial between Julia Thomas and Dick Holmes over ownership of the gold ore that was under Waltz's bed when he died.

Has anyone ever run across any official court records that verify this trial ever took place?

Assuming for a moment that it did and Giddeon Roberts testified that he heard Waltz give the ore to Holmes. I can't imagine how that testimony would have outweighed the testimony by Julia and Rhiney that Waltz gave the ore to them. Especially when Waltz died in Julia's home and the whole town knew she had been caring for him through his long illness.

There are other rumors about the ore being shipped off to the mint in the names of both Thomas and Holmes.

I have never been able to find any documentation relating to any of these incidents.

You would think that if any documentation existed, it would have already been published in someone's book or at least a SMHS journal would have had the story in it.

redison
LDM
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Court trial.

Post by LDM »

Deleted.
Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
redison
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Death bed ore

Post by redison »

LDM,

Now that makes sense!

It also ties up ALL of the loose ends very nicely.


redison
Last edited by redison on Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Roger
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Milton Rose on Gold Under Waltz's Deathbed

Post by Roger »

In the Superstition Mtn Journal Volume 2, Number 3, published July, 1982, Milton Rose wrote an article "The Last Days of Jacob Waltz" on pages 5-6. He writes:

"The men present when Jacob Waltz died were David Schoulters, Charles Roberts, and Simon P. Carr. Schoulters and Carr spoke some German. They acknowledged this to Justice of the Peace M.P. Griffin on October 27, 1981, after Julia Thomas had appeared before him and swore that the three men named had stolen a bag containing $500.00 in gold from Waltz's locker under his bed."

"Griffin notified the three men to appear before him on the 30th of October. On the 29th, Julia personally notified Griffin that she had found the bag of gold behind her front gate that morning. Griffin then closed the proceedings and dismissed the case."

"The three also said that they thought the mess over the bag of gold was a misguided attempt on the part of Julia to get rid of them. Later they were told that a number of citizens had called on Julia. She got the message."

In "Rainbows End" (1940), Milton repeats some of the above story and also adds:

"My source for the above was from the two men concerned, after I found the J.P.'s record of it."

It is possible that this Justice of the Peace document still exists in Phoenix records or possibly in Milton's extensive LDM collection that he left behind.

Net-net, there were some records - at least one - indicating that Waltz left gold under his bed when he died.

Roger
redison
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Post by redison »

Roger,

(No doubt that if it has ever been written down, Roger knows where it is) NICE PULL ROGER!

But, this Rose version is really pretty hard to get comfortable with don't you think? No mention of Holmes and Roberts, and Rose didn't seem to know where the ore ended up in the end.

I noticed that you didn't express an opinion about the validity of the Rose version. I'm wondering if you found a way to rationalize in your own mind that it might be more accurate than LDM's explaination?

I sure wish I had your talent for being able to find things that I knew I had in my library!

redison
Roger
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Milton Rose's Validity

Post by Roger »

Milton Rose was on the ground hunting the LDM very early in the game and had access to Julia Thomas, Rhinehardt Petrasch, and many of the directly involved individuals. He interviewed David Schoulters, Charles Roberts, and Simon P. Carr extensively about the days they spent with Jacob Waltz before he died as to what Waltz told them. The said that they had helped Waltz draw the map for Julia and Rhiney and Milton was he was able to get their descriptions of the map and its landmarks. He was then able to trace the original Waltz map to a Phil Tovrea and was able to see it.

My personal take is that Dick Holmes was NOT at Jake's deathbed to hear the long winded story in Brownie Holmes' manuscript. Milton's writings would support that premise. I think the whole Holmes deathbed story is fabricated from a gathering of know facts floating around Phoenix at that time. I guess I am an avid Petrasch advocate, but will gather information from any valid source

I know a lot of LDM'ers bash Milton because he thought he found the LDM up on Four Peaks as a small pocket deposit that he worked out. Think he missed the mark on this, but the original source material on the LDM that he documented should not be totally thrown out - there are some real gems in there.

Roger
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