"What if the reason Holmes got the ore was it wasn't the LDM ore?"
NO ONE cared if the ore taken from under Waltz's bed was "Dutchman Ore" or Peralta. They were only interested in how much they could sell it for. The idea that Holmes kept some of the best stuff for Christmas ornaments....in those days, is simply crazy.
Whoever took that ore was not a "collector" but a thief. They were interested in cash and cash NOW.
That "Dutchman Ore" is something I find a bit hard to swallow.
So why would someone soooo hard up save some choice pieces? There is no way they saw the historical value then. Bragging rights?
Not much of a consolation prize.
Since this forum began I have asked the same questions concerning the Holmes story and anyone who looks back on it will notice a deafning silence concerning the story.
"NO ONE cared....." speaks volumes on why we have the stories we have today. Everyone knew Waltz and followed Waltz. A man of such celebrity status and yet no one could remember where he was buried after a turn of the wheel.
So we find ourselves with a bit of which Dutchman ore is the LDM ore I guess?
It seems likely that "everyone" did not know Waltz, and that the story only went "public" after his death. He seemed to live a fairly mundane life.....for years.
Here are a few points that seem to support some of the stories:
If you enter the mountains on the west end of the main mountain, you will see the Waltz drawing. The saddle is just above Willow Spring on the ridge that seperates West and East Boulder Canyons.
If you follow the P.C. Bicknell instructions, you would go up over the only true "lofty ridge" in the Superstitions and drop down into West Boulder Canyon. That is exactly what the Stone Maps do.
Waltz had to give simple directions on how to find his mine. [Find this view.....go to the canyon directly below the saddle......go up the canyon (south) to the first canyon on the east side of the canyon you are in. It will climb to the southeast. Go up that canyon and you will find my mine at the top.]
Those directions follow the Bicknell article to a T. The mine that is up there is shown on the Stone Maps. Ruth probably rode across that ridge as they brought him into Willow Spring and passed very close to that mine. He knew what he was looking for and where to look.
Julia never saw that "picture" and missed her chance at following the Waltz directions, because she never got to the canyon directly below the saddle.
If you exchange the Superstition Peak for Weaver's Needle in many of the old maps, which are marked as "Picacho", you will end up in that same place.
There is an old mine up there.
That is also close to the two monuments my brother and I found. It is the same ridge that the two Apache found Ed Piper hiding on. I am one of only a few people, still living, that know where he was found. The information came from someone who was working with Piper.
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
From birth to death, we are all involved in a search. Some days we put a name on a specific search, others find us surprised at finding something we did not realize we were looking for.
Each and every trip into the Superstitions is a search and that applies to everyone who starts on the outside of the mountains and ends up inside.
Sometimes you have a vision of what you are searching for, other times the vision comes as a surprise. Things like setting at your campfire on a night so quiet you can hear the footsteps of Jacob Waltz. The moon comes up over Bluff Spring Mountain to be welcomed by Brother Coyote.
You wake up to a frosty dawn and a family of deer sipping water from the ice cold creek below your camp. You find Brother Owl gently flying across your trail......a friendly warning.
You keep searching, because you never know what treasures you will miss.......or even which ones you were looking for, until they reveal themselves to you.
"Wisdom sits in Places" and you must travel to those places. You will always find a "treasure", if you make the effort.
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Personally, I don't believe anyone understands that connection with the land and all of it's creatures like those who have touched the smooth wood of a fine bow and a straight arrow.
I come from a Family that always had some great stories when the sun hit the horizon. I loved the ghost stories the best, but I always was the strange one. However if you have a great spinner of tales, they all will be remembered.
Good stories, but they all had a reason and a purpose I later learned.
It seems likely that "everyone" did not know Waltz, and that the story only went "public" after his death. He seemed to live a fairly mundane life.....for years.
Here are a few points that seem to support some of the stories:
If you enter the mountains on the west end of the main mountain, you will see the Waltz drawing. The saddle is just above Willow Spring on the ridge that seperates West and East Boulder Canyons.
If you follow the P.C. Bicknell instructions, you would go up over the only true "lofty ridge" in the Superstitions and drop down into West Boulder Canyon. That is exactly what the Stone Maps do.
Waltz had to give simple directions on how to find his mine. [Find this view.....go to the canyon directly below the saddle......go up the canyon (south) to the first canyon on the east side of the canyon you are in. It will climb to the southeast. Go up that canyon and you will find my mine at the top.]
Those directions follow the Bicknell article to a T. The mine that is up there is shown on the Stone Maps. Ruth probably rode across that ridge as they brought him into Willow Spring and passed very close to that mine. He knew what he was looking for and where to look.
Julia never saw that "picture" and missed her chance at following the Waltz directions, because she never got to the canyon directly below the saddle.
If you exchange the Superstition Peak for Weaver's Needle in many of the old maps, which are marked as "Picacho", you will end up in that same place.
There is an old mine up there.
That is also close to the two monuments my brother and I found. It is the same ridge that the two Apache found Ed Piper hiding on. I am one of only a few people, still living, that know where he was found. The information came from someone who was working with Piper.
Can't believe this did not generate more posts than a single comment from Wayne. Have any of you ever been to the mine on the ridge?
Anyone ever see Weaver's Needle through that saddle?
Have any of you ever been to the mine on the ridge?
Anyone ever see Weaver's Needle through that saddle?
Joe
Not yet. I'm working on it.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
One thing that this points to is the very lack of solid background information available concerning the operation of Spanish mining in various areas.
Other than the Waltz stories which may have spurred others, there is very little proof that links the various operations and sites together.
Massacre canyon could be linked to the operations on the western end of the mountains, but who was in the central and northern areas then?
I seriously doubt the migration theories that the Peraltas entered from the north and pushed through these far flung areas and had a number of large camps throughout the mountains. I think trying to tie in various stories and loose ends caused more problems than anything else.
What is curious is why would Ruths body be transported from one area to another and both have had links to Spanish mining and lost mines. Ruth could have been led there against his will or Joe may be giving him more credit than is due. One thing is certain, Ruth did not make it to Black Top on his own.
Peralta, Gonzalez....Why not Ramirez and Vasquez? Both Gonzalez and Peralta family members have gravitated to the central areas more often than not. Their information would be far better than ours of what they were looking for. Even the various Native American sources place mining in varied areas.
Each book released since Waltz has died follows the same premise and I seriously doubt that any one group covered that much area. It would seem more likely that a number of groups related and unrelated were driven out at various times with the Massacre grounds being the cumulative effect.
So is it possible that after losing a number of battles over the years that the Spanish/Mexican miners finally lost the war when the Native Americans pooled their resources to clear the area once and for all?
They did not have to travel that far from the North.
The Peralta Land Grant is why "Peralta".
The signs are there of their mining activities.
They worked as a team. Guards, cook, look-outs, miners, etc.
They worked one area, prospected others.
Actually a number of sites would be more accessible from the south.
Everyone leaves trash behind. Old trash becomes history. I think it is wrong to go outside the box with the understanding of the number of sites in the area. There is very little if any trash that identifies a single party or surname.
Everything Peralta seems to focus in to the Needle canyon area. all the accounts of descendants looking for the mines centralizes there.
I am not dispelling the Peralta/Gonzales family operation, just the scope of the whole.
There have been plenty of discussions of whether the LDM and the Sombrero mine are even one and the same. The LDM would have been the last if nothing else.
There are/were a number of covered mines in the Needle canyon area. Native American stories tell us of these areas. There are some good reference points on where at least 8 and possibly more were. Taking these stories and known locations into account, what of the other areas where such mines were not sealed? Having varying numbers of the Peralta operation, it appears there are a number of operations unaccounted for. I doubt the Apaches would speak of a single mine left uncovered if there were such a number. A single mine is referenced to in the Massacre accounts.
Maybe looking for a filled in hole isn't the answer.
Maybe one should look for a Spanish symbol that would relate to a mine.
Symbols range from small 2ft. in size to one mile in length.
If you are looking for the LDM, a filled in hole would probably be your best bet. On the other hand, if you are looking in an area that is a lot of straight up and down, or one that requires ropes.......you may be in the wrong place.
If you are looking for a mine shaft as opposed to a "pit", you are not looking for the LDM.
A bit of rope can save it or stretch it.Depends on the circumstances.While I'll agree that JW may have only needed a line for his kit and his mule,others may have done some climbing and haulin here and there.Sometimes comes in handy,combined with a swiss seat or other harness and a few reusable wedgies,in order to get somewhere safely that you wouldn't go otherwise.
SH
Any opinions to share reguarding the original excavators of the pit,or other similar workings? Aside from the Spanish (Peralta etc) and JW or those that he inspired of course.Zentull made an interesting and insiteful observation re:
the lack of reliable documentation of spanish mining activity.There are many reasons for this,not the least of which is the need to protect their investment.
The fact that we know anything at all about the Peralta history,is by virtue of the family's legitimacy in the spanish territories,thus an apparent will to comply with Spanish law.
SH
