Where Is The Lost Dutchman-?

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zentull
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Post by zentull »

I always figured Waltz possibly meant 75 feet accross and 150 feet long as far as the ledge was concerned. Thomas and Petrasch most likely thought in english and Waltz thought in German which can always lead to 2 different things. If the Dutchman was on a football field sized area it could be everyone is looking for something small whereas the site is actually expansive and broken up by terrain which would at those distances make it far more difficult to find. Also, did Waltz give that estimate using points of reference or actually give it in feet ? If Waltz was exact and Thomas and Petrasch got it right, you could be standing by a pit and never locate the 2nd. 75 feet in what direction ? The tunnel could be the key. Then again with the distances given how could Peralta have started a pit that far off from where it was intended ? Dependent on the tunnels actual purpose, The actual LDM could be 75 feet or far more to one side or the other of the tunnel. You could spend a lot of time excavating the wrong pit and not locate the other.
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"A Like Distance"

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zentull,

I believe the phrase was "a like distance across the top". I don't know where a "ledge" crept into the description. Is there a source you can quote?

The "two" pits were "at" the mine. I suppose you could consider that to be some distance apart, but that would require some drift tunnels, and I don't believe there has ever been any reference to that being the case.

Two pits 75" deep and a "like distance across the top" would be hard to hide. That does not sound like the typical Spanish "dig" for the area. We are talking a dump of 150' diameter by 150' depth. That's a lot of trash.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by TGH »

Ribadope,

I only wish it WAS me posting under IloveJoe, but alas, it is not. That guy is brilliant (and funny). Like Harry said on one of the other forums...give that guy a medal. I actually feel bad for you, but figure you brought this upon yourself, so, have fun. Now you have your own forum and your own fan...who's better than you, Joe? Do you REALLY think that I am the only person on this forum who thinks you are a jerk? Hardly......you are the butt of many a joke in the LDM community...all because you dont know when to shut up. Enjoy the attention....you must be proud...lol

P

PS Sorry for calling you Ribadope. Guess I will have to be "ready to bleed" now.......lol Ouch.....
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No Problem

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter Crapanoza,

Not to worry, as you have said, it could be any one of the hundreds out there laughing. :lol:

Glad to see you are reading my little piece of this outfit. I knew you would be a fan.

It's not you......Sure it isn't. :roll:

You did everything except sign your name. Speaking of that, did I spell Crapanoza correctly this time?

Good to see you posting again. Finally found something that interested you?

Joe Ribaudo
zentull
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Post by zentull »

In my notes from last year I have 4 75s in the corners with 150 drawn between the upper 2 and a line trailing downward for the tunnel. I want to say I am mistaken and the 150 was thought as the minimal distance of the 2 pits, but I didn't draw it that way. I did this while passing the time mid day on Bluff Springs scouting for deer. Now I have begun to confuse myself. That will teach me to doodle about one subject, while doing something else. All I remember was I was trying to figure out the general size of the area. For All I know I was sitting on the pit while doing this. Ledge was a simple part of my own insanity. One of those things that s stuck in my head since a kid. Propably the result of a campfire story that I cant shake.
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I am your friend

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

No Joe , NO! I AM your friend ! You are a good poster. Thank you. How do you even know I am a guy??? I like you Joe. I like you alot !!!

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Post by joe ribuado is cool club »

im right behind you joe,im backing you up 100% on this, its obviously peter ,yup! no doubt about it. what do bill and ded think?i bet they agree with joe and me on this issue.
just as an added bit of support joe, i too, believe the stone maps are genuine, yup! no doubt about it!
respectfully
saddam( honorary chairman of both the joe ribuado is cool club, and the stone maps appreciation society)
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Post by WyattWestwood »

Deleted.....
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LDM and other things

Post by late49er »

Joe,

First let`s start with the LDM and the Stone Maps. I agree with you that LDM 1 is shown on the Stone Maps. And yes you can`t reveal the location of LDM 1 without revealing the other. What I have come to believe though is LDM 1 is only incidental to the Maps. The Maps reveal the location of the other. One of the functions of the other is a map room. The Stone Maps are only a part of the puzzel. Believe there most be more maps out there.

Next your position that there is no proof that Waltz had access to a number of mines in the area. I believe there is ample evidence that Waltz did in fact access any number of mines. I am only sure of 4. Believe there have been a number of posts on this board that point to that as being the case. Perhaps other folks can jump in here and comment. Do believe there is one point that clearly points to this that I have not heard discussed. That is that the historical accounts of LDM 1 clearly suggest it is a epithermal deposit, and I believe associated with a caldera complex, yet the ore samples taken from under Waltzs`s bed is mesothermal in nature. This clearly points to Waltz having access to at least 2 mines. Perhaps the real question you are asking is what is the connection between Waltz and additional Peralta Mines. That is a different question. If you ask that question you go on the other side of the Matrix.

I agree with you assertion regarding the tunnel. Not really sure how long the tunnel was actively worked. Do believe it extended throughtout the deposit.

In terms of Waltz`s trips to the Superstitutions I believe Glover`s book documents numerous trips by Waltz to the Superstitutions. Believe you should take Waltz`s comments about his trips into the Superstitutions with a grain of salt. Believe Bark and Ely probably reported exactly what they were told. There is an interesting passage in Ely`s book where Waltz talks about keeping secrets. That passage is a lot more importent than folks realize.

Can`t really say why the magnitude of specimen ore the soldier boys mentioned as laying around was there. Know I would not have left it out.
Having said that a deposit as rich as LDM 1 would have that type of ore easily available. Two other deposits associated with Caldera Complexes I am aware of were probably even richer. That being the Cresson Blow out, and Aladdin`s chamber. The Cresson Blow out was part of the Cripple Creek Colorado deposit and had millions of ounces of Gold for the taking. This deposit was associated with a lot of tellurides. Believe Petzite may have been a part maybe not. Also at Goldfield, Nevada the miners broke into a chamber that was near the surface that was so rich that the ore didn`t require refining. They called it Aladdin`s chamber. Believe it was the size of several houses. So basically a lot of rich gold in this type of setting is not that exceptional.

I believe Jake and his partners took a lot of gold out of the Superstitutions. Not sure why you would believe that Jake would only ship his product out of Arizona. I believe a lot of the Gold ended up in Virginia City, Nevada. Great place to get rid of Gold. Refine it and ship it out. By the way did you know there is a great Opera House in Virgina City. It was world famous and attracted performers from all of the world. Folks from everywhere came to performances. Who knows maybe Waltz even attended a performance or two. You might want to research Virginia City a bit, with particular emphasis on Piper`s Opera House.

Sometimes a pecan pie is just a pecan pie.


Regards,


Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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Four

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

Interesting that we come up with four. Big Native American connection there, especially Apache. Probably just a coincidence.

The four Xs would be the thing to be looking at. Just another hint for the Stone Map fans.

Depends on who makes the pie's, I would imagine. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Advice From The Crazy

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The day I start taking advice from the three stooges, will be the day I need therapy.

Joe Ribaudo
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Where is the lost dutchman

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

If you take a cube 75ft.by 75ft by 75ft It would be almost impossibe to move this much material via donkey. If you tried to move this ammount by semi and rock beds you would have to have several trucks and a good haul road. If I hit the right keys on my calculator, I have not done haul calculations in many years. If you mine into load claim you would still have to seperate the gold from the ore. I would love to find such a place if the mine was as rich as claimed the spoils woud have more gold in them than what I have found in the last many years.

What I can not understand that if the dutchman had a rich source of gold why did he not make a trip into the mountains with several burrows and bring enough ore back to Phoenix to last him past the his anticipated death.

Jim Hamrick
zentull
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Post by zentull »

Joe,

Now that I have slept on it, I believe I was taking into consideration the distance I thought would be required for an operation this size and the space it would require. The Peraltas were not operating in secrecy if we believe there was a sizeable work force. The 150 was taking in account the distance of the openings as well as spacing on all sides. Wasn't the 1st pit started and then they moved to the other? Again, I propably was thinking of the actual possible size of the site according to certain parameters and why those numbers were given. As far as the ledge theory, Waltz claimed the Peraltas camped above the mine and this with a saddle on the approach leaves me with the idea of a ledge. The material could of been dropped off the ledge area, which would make it difficult to pick up on the source. Waltz and/or the Peraltas may have filled the other pit to some extent with material as well. There is a place I frequent that has pits above a natural cave that has been tunneled. Taking it into account, the area we are looking at would be quite large if the measurements are correct.


By the way, there is know reason to insult the Stooges, though I always preferred the Marx brothers. Either in a short film looking for the LDM would propably reflect on us all too well.
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Post by TGH »

Jim,

The "75 ft" reference most likely refers to the distance between the two shafts rather than the size across of the shafts themselves.

Late49er,

A "honeycomb" effect might also be created by multiple outcroppings that were worked until it was necessary to attempt a crosscut to get at the various veins. I know of one mountain in the Superstitions that has at least 3 tunnels (most likely there are more, but I havent found them yet) associated with it. I assume there were workings above BEFORE the tunnels were dug. There are some very good examples of how the people associated with mining in the Superstitions worked their mines that are still in existence today in other parts of AZ. Find and study those workings and you will have a fair idea of what to look for in the Superstitions proper....

Peter
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where is the mine

Post by bill711 »

The 75 ft. size would only work IF they were using the CHICKEN LADDER method of mining or the STAIRSTEP method of mining ! Bill 8)
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Stooges or stooges

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zentull,

Here is what Bark wrote: "Helena and Rhiney said that Jake told them that there were two pits at the mine about 75 feet deep and a like distance across the top".

I don't know how anyone could misread that, some obviously have, but perhaps Bark made a mistake whe he wrote it. That seem like a disastrous assumption to make. Once you start down that road, you can change every word to fit what you would like it to be.

"Wasn't the 1st pit started and then they moved to the other?"

I would have to take your word on that, as I have never read, that I can remember, anything concerning any details on the timing of the two pits.

You were correct in capitalizing Stooges. You will notice that I did not. Our three stooges do not rise to the level of the Three Stooges. :)

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
zentull
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Post by zentull »

Joe,

What bothers me most is Waltz gave directions to the mine in kilometers, then in feet as to the size supposedly to both Thomas/Petrasch and Holmes ( Though completely different numbers). So I wonder if the distance was given in meters and estimated by Thomas and/or Petrasch or Waltz just said about from that barn to fence which was approx. 75 feet. So unable to go back and remember what possessed me to do this, I am like anyone else standing back and trying to figure what I meant. I still have no reference for my numbers. Again I am at my most dangerous to myself when I think.

The 2 pit theory was related to me in the late seventies by a guy who was between 60 and 900 years old while camping in the Superstitions. He smelled pretty bad too. The gist was a second pit was started or unfinished and partially filled in. Otherwise his story was the norm. It was one of those odd footnotes that I kept because it didn't really change the story or make it seem any truer. I kept more succinct, but equally confusing notes then.

One other thing would be the Peraltas supposedly were miners, so how much distance would keep the pit(s)stable. I actually never have seen 2 pits that close, but being pretty much void of any real mining expertise I have no clue to what would be the norm.

Of course if there is only 1 pit it is either 75 feet accross or 9 feet across and either 12 feet deep or 75 feet deep. There is a ledge 6 feet down or several ledges. It could be covered or not.

I do think I am correct in assuming it is on the ground though. Hopefully you will not question that. Otherwise I am finished with the whole buisiness. A floating lost mine would be too much.
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Kilometers?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zentull,

I am trying to remember where Waltz gave directions to his mine in "kilometers".

Like everything else in this legend, you can pick a number, or pick a story
and you will find a lot of contrary "facts".

If I were going to look for the LDM, I believe it would be best to go back to the stories that were closest to the events and seem to be the most believeable. For me, that would be Bark and Ely. Others will take the Holmes story as the "best evidence".

It's probable that, sometime in the future, Dutch Hunters will be following the writings of Wyatt......... I suppose that his ideas hold as much water as the old boy you met in the mountains. That might be a little over the top, but anything is possible, right? :)

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by Wiz »

zentull wrote: What bothers me most is Waltz gave directions to the mine in kilometers...
Zen,
Are you making a reference here to the "German Clues"? Seems to me there were some metric directions there that spawned a lot of discussion here.

A floating mine isn't out of the question. After all:
a) You can find "float" gold;
b) Rocky and Bullwinkle had an "upsidasium" mine in a floating mountain.

Proof positive!
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Post by zentull »

" Drei kilometers ron der quelle wirst du mein spitzfelson finden "

Of course this could be a follow up to something else and mean 3 kilometers from the source of a spring or water or something entirely different, and there had to be a direction or trail of some sort to follow. Still the term is in kilometers, which could imply ( Yes Joe,I am getting dangerous assuming things again) that the earlier measurements were approx. 25 meters across and deep. Was this Ely translating,Thomas or Petrasch or did Waltz jump back and forth as it suited him.

Of course are spitzfelson pointed rocks or directional rocks or Waltzs description of a cairn ?

"Was ist los" could be what is wrong, whats up or what is loose, depending on the conversation. The kilometers term though is intriguing and quite a long distance to walk looking for a rock or rocks. Why are there no LDM maps in German ? Why would Wiz even tease about the floating mine ? Now I will be looking up as well.
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Post by TGH »

Zentull

I believe an entire thread on here is devoted to the Spitzfelsen and the German Clues. There was a spring from where Waltz gave his directions back in Waltz's time. I do not believe it exists today. If one took an old trail from the spring approximately 2 miles or so, one would run into a mighty pretty spitzfelsen. Interesting stuff up in that area.

Peter
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Post by zentull »

Joe,

I found another note concerning 2 pits and I had it cross referenced with Jim Barks notes.

"Helena and Rhiney said Jake told them that there were 2 pits at the mine about 75 feet deep and a like distance accross the top"

I checked Barks notes and suddenly felt a little smarter. Not real smart, but slightly above the typing monkey level. I was just a kid when I heard the campfire story, funny how I remeber that so distinctly but forgot the reference in the notes that I just re read this spring. Of course I distinctly remember my first hike through the Superstitions in detail like it was yesterday, though it was over 32 years ago.

If everyone now tells me this is a typo I will never stop screaming.
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Waltz and the Metric System

Post by novice »

Zentull,

The web site below certainly doesn't prove that Waltz could not have been familiar with the metric system, but.

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/origin.htm

We would suspect that Waltz received his education (1820-1830) in Germany and the reference states "Although the metric system was not accepted with enthusiasm at first, adoption by other nations occurred steadily after France made its use compulsory in 1840."

Waltz probably came to America by 1840 and seems to have been pretty Americanized by 1890. He had filed mining claims and obtained land in Arizona that used the English system of feet and miles.

For what it's worth, It would be very strange to me if Waltz ever dealt in metrics.

" Drei kilometers ron der quelle wirst du mein spitzfelson finden "

I have no idea how Corbin came up with this reference? (3 kilometers and 2 miles are about the same so maybe it was poetic license.)

Garry
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Post by zentull »

However, it is credited to Hermann Petrasch. Passed on to William Edwards and George Roberts. It seems this was copied rather than done to refresh the clues. Perhaps notes from Matthew Roberts or Bertie Roberts ? Still I would think Hermann was as Americanized as Waltz. So was it done to legitamize the clues or unexplained literary licsense by author unknown. Corbin lays out material but rarely critics it or the source. Dr Glover critics things more, which gives us a more rounded look at each piece of evidence he presents. Perhaps if he follows the board closely he would either be familiar with the source for the material or have an opinion of it.
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Metric system in early Phoenix.

Post by LDM »

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