Where Is The Lost Dutchman-?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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late49er
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Back doors/Georgia on my mind

Post by late49er »

Hi Gene,

Dahlonega is a neat town. There is a famous mine close by called the Calhoun Mine. It was quite a producer. The veins there are in metamorphic rock. Good example, I believe, in the support of the lateral secretion theory of ore deposition. Anyway the Calhoun mine was a real money machine for the folks at Clemson University.

N. Georgia is really filling up and yep remember the snakes. Have to say in general they are not as big or as mean as some of the stuff I have run into in the west. Have no doubt Gold could be found around Atlanta. Atlanta has gotten too big for me.

I would really enjoy looking you up if I get back to Canton. We have a family reunion about every three years. A paleface would be welcome. You would hear some good stories.


Regards,

Late 49er
late49er
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Backdoors and such

Post by late49er »

Joe,

For the moment Black top Mesa is too sensitive to discuss. Would be interested in hearing Mr. Howard`s story if you can share.

One cannot find what one was given.

Guess I could ask you to re-phrase the question but I know what you are interested in. Suspect you know where the information came from. Yes I have been in, around and through several systems and their backdoors.

Said sometime ago their was another history to the Superstitutions.

Regards,

Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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The Dale Howard Story

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

Here is the post where I told what I remembered of Dale Howard's story:

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:00 pm Post subject: Dale Howard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dale told me the following story:
Prior to WW2, Dale and a friend were prospecting the area of Black Top Mountain. They were working there way around the South end about half way up the mountain. Dale lost his footing and grabbed a large boulder. The boulder moved away from the mountain and he fell to the ground. They were suprised to find that the boulder was hinged in some way and opened and closed with ease. It concealed a cave. They did not have a flashlight, so they bundled some dry brush together and lit it. As they entered the cave the fire would not stay lit due to a tremendous air current coming into the entrance. They surmised that it had another opening farther up. A small pile of ore lay in the entrance. They removed the ore and pushed the boulder back into it's original position. At this time they were fairly excited, as you might imagine. They decided to make a map.
After they had drawn the map, they did a dangerous thing. They begain to think. In fear that someone might gain possesion of the map, or copy it, they decided to reverse and change some of the directions. Only the two of them would be able to restore the information needed to locate the entrance. I am sure you can all see this coming. They went home to Northern California, and had the ore assayed. Of course it was very rich gold ore. They made plans to return. WW2....... When the two friends returned from doing there duty, they put their lives and family back together. Jobs, kids, wives and the wounds of war put off there return to the mountains. One of them moved, I think Dale, and they drifted thru the years, always saying they must return to the cave.
At last they made concrete plans to meet in Apache Junction and return to Black Top Mountain. Dale arrived and waited for his friend to show up. He never did. Turns out he had a heart attack and died. Dale eventually made his own trip in. Once on Black Top he got out his map and started looking for the entrance. It had been fifteen or twenty years and Dale had no idea what they had changed on the map. He spent many years blowing up the South side of Black Top at the approximate elivation he thought was correct. He never found the entrance. I heard that Dale's wife shot and killed him. Anyone know if thats true?

Respectfully,

Joe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I might change "hinged" for balanced, as that probably was the case. Also, Tracy Hawkins said that Dale's wife did not shoot him. I think he said Dale died from cancer. It'a always a good idea to get every ounce of pleasure out of each smoke, as you never know which one will be your last. :roll:

Tracy knew Dale much better than I did, so if he is still looking in on the forum, he might remember Dale's story and have another version.

As for Black Top Mesa being "too sensitive to discuss", you should know, like everything else, it has been discussed to a fair-thee-well here. Not only has it been well talked about, but you may not have an idea of how many claims and people have covered that piece of ground.

I have often said that many maps and stories will place you on Black Top Mesa, to the exclusion of any other place. The "Fish Map" is a great example. A lot of very intelligent and knowledgeable Dutch Hunters have made a home on Black Top.

For those who know what a blow-hard I am, and believe I post on subjects I know nothing about, you should skip this next passage. No need to get yourselves all worked up for nothing.

Here is a clue for all who read my post's waiting for one to fall:

The "Fish Map" leads to Black Top Mesa. No big secret, right? The secret is that it is a smoke screen. That does not mean it isn't an important map, leading to a specific location. It does. Are we back to a Spanish Code, or is that just more smoke? :?

I appreciate your addressing your question to me, as it is bad form. I am coming to understand, to comment on posts which are not directly addressed to you. When you boil it all down to basics, that is what has annoyed my friends here. That and exposing the truth about some of the posters has been my big mistake. It was not my job to do that, and I will nod my head with rest of the members in the future.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Big Mistake

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

Good post Joe. Excellent in fact. Lots of good info. Very very good. A Four Star post. Don't worry. We think all your posts are just fine. Please keep posting. Please keep posting ALOT. It WAS good that for once you answered a post addressed to you. Maybe you will like other dum dums to answer posts addressed to you? Yes. It is ok. I like you. We like you. Alot in fact. Don't stop posting. Next time someone directs a post to you we will answer it instead. Would that be ok? I hope so. Hooray fore Joe. He's my favorite.

ILoveJoeRibaudo

Alot !
Joe Ribaudo
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Questions

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

You may know what I am interested in, but it is less likely you know why I am interested.

Actually, the first question that comes to mind is: If Black Top Mesa is "too sensitive to discuss", why ask for the Dale Howard story? I imagine that will only generate more interest in that area.

The fact that there "may" be such doors, as described, does not mean that there are other entrances. The drafts that are almost always described in these stories, could be caused by nothing more than vents in the system.

The "popular" description of Waltz's mine does not lend itself to a "balanced boulder" as a "door". That does not negate your theory, I assume it's a theory, as to what can be found in the range.

If you were "gifted" these locations, it would be interesting to know why.
I take you at your word here, Late, because you seem to be a straight shooter. I understand why you would not disclose details here, but do wonder what is behind mentioning anything at all.

When I see "new" stuff being floated on the forum, I immediately think of a "pending" book offering. If that is in the works, I want to be the first to say good luck. If not, what's holding you back? Sounds like you have a great story to tell. I am a buyer, for sure. :)

After all your posts, plus other stuff, I am really looking forward to meeting you at the camp out.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Proud of Joe

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

I am proud of you Joe. Your recent posts have been quite good. Informative, respectful and just excellent. Thank you. We all thank you for posting. Please continue. Soon you will win the Forum Award for Best and Most Pleasing Poster. Attaboy Joe.

ILoveJoeRibaudo

PS Hooray for Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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Looking Back

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

I remember that late night stroll on the web, when I found Ron's site and joined up, very well. Here was a forum that discussed something which had been close to my heart for over forty years. What could be better?

I was like a kid in a candy store when I saw the experience and knowledge that could be called up with the stroke of the keyboard.

I wanted to join into every discussion, and believed I was welcomed to do so. I also believed I had something to give. I did that freely.

Not being a politician, I was often less than PC. That did not seem to be a problem, as others were just as abrasive. We, mostly, gave as good as we took.

Things have changed. I was slow to realize the damage I was helping to cause. It would seem that the destruction will continue. Someone said, "It will not last". A small effort is being made to assure that the statement will be true. I will not be a part of that effort.

For those who may not be participating because of the bitter hatred that is hanging over the forum, I apologize for my part in bringing that about.
As Peter stated, it would appear that I "was clueless".

I always felt like I was coming into the home of a good friend here. I felt I could speak my mind and my friends could do the same. That home has become a place where no one can be comfortable. I stay because it has become a habit.

I made a lot of mistakes here, and misjudged a lot of people.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

p.s. I am very proud of my family, especially Uncle Chuck and the Ribaudo name. That's why I sign it at the end of many posts. If anyone want's to call me Ribadope or whatever, to my face, you better be ready to bleed for it. I will be. This may be another mistake, but it will be my last one.
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Hatred?

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

Oh Joe, you are wrong. I like you. We like you. We like your posts. Please continue posting. You are informative and good. Thank you.

ILoveJoeRibaudo
late49er
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Backdoors and such

Post by late49er »

Joe,

Thank you for the information regarding Mr.Howard. If was most helpful.

Actually the sensitivity regarding Black Top Mesa is driven by the fact I tend to talk too much. It is not driven by my concerns regarding calling attention to the location. After all if all of those folks looked for years on Black Top there must not be anything there.

Let`s see. The LDM. Don`t believe anything I have read about the LDM is contradicted by the notion that one should imagine a honeycomb with one entrance being the LDM. In fact I believe at least one of your forum members who has been there agrees with that description.

On a serious note perhaps a broader description of what I mean by a backdoor would be helpful. If you have the opportunity read accounts of the mines in Bodie, California and the Hayes-Monette Lease in Goldfield, Nevada. That would help.

First, consider a gold deposit generally is a system event. That is it is not just a stand along entity. Obviously I am excluding placer deposits here. If one encountered an outcropping of Gold one would obviously work it but if time and resources allowed additional cross-cuts, adits, etc.,
would be attempted not only to cross the surface vein but to look for additional vein structures that would perhaps be just as rich or richer.
A good example of this would be the 16 to 1 mine in California. These cross-cuts, etc., could easily be hidden by a number of means, boulders, surface burial, etc., This gophering, if you will of the deposit then would allow for easily backdooring a vein structure if needed. For example if the Apache`s covered the deposit and a back door existed it would be a simple matter to access the vein structure from a different access point.
Understand I am not a Geologist just a rock hound.

Lets take for example the traditional description of the LDM being a pit and a tunnel. Here I am referencing Ely`s description on page 109 of his masterful work, "The Lost Dutchman". Here Ely quotes Waltz, "I stayed there only a little while--just long enough to build a rock wall at the mouth of the tunnel that Peralta`s father had started. I threw some dirt against the wall to hide the rocks, and then I came away". The importent part here is the reference to the mouth of the tunnel. That tunnel perhaps went a lot deeper than is generally appreciated. Perhaps it exited into a system. The system is the key not the mine.

Also lets discuss the possiblity that Waltz had access to a number of mines in the area. As I have suggested this is a reasonable explanation of Waltz`s long trips into the area, his multiple sightings, and one other thing I am surprised folks haven`t focused on. Ever consider Waltz told Helena the location of LDM 1 and gave Holmes the location to LDM 2. Perhaps everyone down there told the truth. Having said that LDM 1 is the real LDM. What a hoot!

Why was I gifted this information. I can only suspect that God has a sense of humor.

Joe I am not interested in writing books or making any money out of this adventure. Really the best books on the current history of the LDM were the efforts by Sims and Glover. Everything else is just footnotes. Before I would spend money on any more books I would contribute to the United Way. Those folks do a lot of good.

Actually I do not have a clue where all of this is going. Guess that makes me clueless. I actually am in the same fix several others have been. You can`t reveal the location of the LDM without revealing the location of the other. The other is a lot more importent than the LDM. Believe I referred to it as the essence of the Stone Maps.

At the end of the day I have given you folks another history of the LDM.
It is a gift believe what you will. I believe that history is a history of the human heart not greed. I prefer it.

Just an aside. Have you ever visited Hidden Valley on Bluff Spring Mountain. Really is a special place.

Look forward to meeting you folks. By the way does your wife make pecan pie. I haven`t had a good piece of pecan pie since I left Atlanta.

Regards,

Late 49er
bill711
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goergia

Post by bill711 »

49er; Dahlonageh means yellow in cherokee; is this the same name as your dahlonega? meaning yellow? bill 8)
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Das Chimney

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

I would doubt we have any members who have been to the LDM, but anything is possible.

Not knowing anything about rocks, I can't argue against what you have said. However, it does seem to be speculation, at best. This assumes you have not been to the mine (pit or pits) that was described by Waltz, to Julia and Rhiney.

I am not sure I would describe the Lost Dutchman Mine as a "pit and a tunnel". Waltz described the tunnel as: "the tunnel that Peralta's father had started." That in no way indicates it was part of the "pit". Had he completed the tunnel, intersecting the vein farther down, I believe you could call it part of the "mine".

"First, consider a gold deposit generally is a system event. That is it is not just a stand along entity. Obviously I am excluding placer deposits here. If one encountered an outcropping of Gold one would obviously work it but if time and resources allowed additional cross-cuts, adits, etc.,
would be attempted not only to cross the surface vein but to look for additional vein structures that would perhaps be just as rich or richer."

I would guess that is a fine description of a "system event". If the event that created the outcropping that became the LDM, was a (single event)volcanic chimney or vent, at what depth do you think that would have started? Unknown?

Considering the fact (?) that the Waltz ore had solid gold material involved, without the need to crush and process the surrounding rock to remove it, is that indicative as to the type of deposit we are talking about?

Since the LDM has been described as a "pit", and we know that a tunnel was started, why would we assume there is another "back door"? There is no indication that the shaft was anything but straight down. That would make it a fairly typical Spanish dig.

Bark said that "Helena and Rhiney said that Jake told them that there were two pits at the mine about 75 feet deep and a like distance across the top".

That seems unlikely, as that would make the two pits over 150 feet across. In that country, that would be one hell of a job, and leave a lot of evidence behind.

A number of mines, as you indicate, does make sense. Any extra "doors" would also fit a number of "treasure" stories, but not so many "mine" stories.

Do you have any clue as to why Bark said the Two Soldiers turned in the pocket-full of "ore" they found at the mine site for "sixty dollars an ounce"? It seems they received close to $900. for the handful. If they received that much money, the gold did not come out of anyone's pocket.

All of the above, other than the quotes, is just slightly informed opinion. I trust that is the way you will take it. :wink:

Take care.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Good good

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

Good post Joe. It was even addressed to you. It was fine and proper that you answered it. Good good good. Your reply was excellent. Well thought out. Thank you Joe. Soon we will make you the Forum Good Poster boy.
Thanks gain.

ILoveJoeRibaudo

PS Joe is good
late49er
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Post by late49er »

Hi Bill,

Dahlonega can mean either golden as in color, or yellow as in money.

Yes

Regards,

Late49er
zentull
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Post by zentull »

I kind of figured either Black top Mesa or Bluff Springs. So I would be looking north east or east as it pleases me. After all these years I still run across stuff I just didn't notice before. Every season I glass for deer I end up with a legal pad of cool looking places or anomalies that I want to check out later. Just because an area is covered heavily doesn't mean jack. There are spots we all walk by for years and then off to take a leak and something catches the eye. After over 30 plus years wandering around ( as a kid I did just that....wandered off the trails for hours aimlessly) it amazes me how much I have missed or the changes that seem slight at the time, but now are huge. While I dont consider myself a dutch hunter per say, I am finding it odd that I repeatedly come back there to hunt and spend time. Maybe I am just in denial.

It also amazes me how spread out everyone is searching for the mine. I have found people earnestly searching on Superstition mountain and a few days later the same group is on the east side of Weavers needle reciting the same clues.

I do have a proposition though. Everyone throw me a bone on deer and pigs and if I find the mine I will let you know where its at. The heaviest thing I am hauling out of there is venison. That is the only time in my opinion the catch is better than the chase.

Earlier someone mentioned that Waltz told Julia where the mine was, but from what I read and heard the person who heard the most was Rhiney. Waltz must of figured Rhiney being male and young had the best shot. Who knows, maybe he just liked him. If Holmes had all the information that Petrasche was given he would have propably found the mine.

Of course I know as much as anyone which is why its a lost mine.
We all get older and expect to find it now? Damn I can't find stuff around my own house anymore.
AUDigger53
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Massacure Gold

Post by AUDigger53 »

I was happily surprised to see two of you reference the Massacure Ground's gold. I mentioned it on a forum years back as a "by the way", and got flamed fairly good for it.<G>
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Post by Wiz »

Late49er,

I was rereading this thread. Are you saying that you have actually found and entered a cave on Black Top Mesa that was concealed by a pivot stone, and travelled through a hidden cave system in that mountain? Or just suggesting that it may be there?
joe ribuado is cool club
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Post by joe ribuado is cool club »

hi joe! I see your alter egos bill and ded are back,im glad about that, now the forum has 3 super informed posters, will they make appearance at the assholes reunion? its what the whole forum wants to know.
late49er
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The LDM and other things

Post by late49er »

Joe,

Haven`t a clue why Bark said what he did. Find it a bit surprising. The gold must have been specimen pieces for them to have gotten $60.00 an ounce. If my memory serves me I believe Gold was between 14-18 dollars an ounce at that time. Believe it didn`t get to 35 dollars an ounce until the 1930`s. Maybe Mr. Bark or someone else is having a little fun.

I suspect at least one of the members has been to LDM 1.

Please feel free to question any of my observations about rocks. I am only an amateur. A rockhound at best. Perhaps we both might learn something new. As far as the current history of the LDM I am clueless. You folks are the experts.

In terms of the LDM. One thing to consider I do not accept the paradigm that Waltz only frequented one Peralta mine. I believe he had access to at least 4. Two were mesothermal deposits, Two epithermal.

In terms of LDM 1 perhaps it would be better to reference the Deering description of the mine. Hopefully we can find agreement there." I followed it six or seven miles and came to the worst place I ever saw. There was a tunnel, and it had been walled up". John said it probably had caved in. Deering said, "no, I am enough of a miner to tell when a tunnel has been walled up. The wall had settled about eight inches, and I don`t know how deep the Tunnel was. Above the tunnel, and further over, it looked as though there had been two big shafts, but they were pretty well filled."

So we come back to the tunnel. A tunnel that Ely indicates was under construction since the Don`s fathers time, a tunnel that Deering cannot tell how deep is. A tunnel that was perhaps partially completed under the guidence of a German mining engineer. A tunnel run on what is recognized as a rich deposit. If it was me and I had the time and manpower I would be running shafts in multiple directions off a major entrance. This would create a honeycomb.

And let us say that during my gophering I broke into a chamber that contained things that are really hard to understand. I would be in a state of awe and wonder. Wouldn`t quite know what to do. Just finish the exit under the waterfall, cover it up and have a beer.

Your question about the volcanic chimney is a good one. LDM 1 in my opinion is a epithermal deposit. It contains vugs and the host of minerals one would expect to find in such a setting. Such as kaolinite,Alunite, pyrite, and visible Gold. I believe the Gold Ore associated with Supersitutions that has become public are from LDM 2 or 3.

Not sure I understand your question about the solid gold material. Really one can find globs of pure Gold in just about any deposit, whether it be epithermal, mesothermal or hypothermal. Saw some beautiful gold ore out of Empire mine that was highgraded. The Gold came from the 4450 ft. level. Lot of beautiful gold came out of the 16-1 Mine at really all depths. Museum quality. Actually though the more you get to gold formed near the surface it does tend to become a mess.

As far as covering up the area I don`t see that as a major issue. Don`t believe you would even know it is there.

I am not a treasure seeker. Not sure what you mean about doors fitting into treasure stories, but not so many mine stories. Will say that at Bodie and Goldield the miners would hit rich pockets during the day, highgrade what they could while working and start building access points at night. In Goldfield there was more highgrade than honest gold ever produced there. Folks used to pay to go into the mines. I know I would have.

Joe, I have tried to answer your questions as best I can. You are very close to going on the other side of the Matrix. Make sure you want to go.

Regards,


Late 49er



Wiz,

For the moment I cannot discuss that area. I will say I don`t disagree with anything that I read.

Regards,

Late 49er
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Post by zentull »

I would agree that at least one of us, if not more, have been within a stones throw. With so many different opinions of what each of us would expect to find, it would be realistic to say that we have been there without even knowing it. Since joining this board I have a different view now than ever before when I see things. The stone maps themselves give me such a headache, I have decided to just forget they exist.

How many of us have crossed Waltzs, Deerings, Etc path and not known it? I am sure a few have stood in the very same spot. With everything that I have read here over the years, each opinion slightly differs and in some cases there is a wide gap. Add in the changes over the years, Would Waltz even recognize the site or has it changed so much he would have a general idea, but find it difficult to pin point certain locations. Depending on the real truth of the matter, anyone of us may not know where we were at that time.

I always thought the tunnel was started propably just before the massacre and was never finished. Waltz covered it because it would generate further interest in the area that could expose the workings above. But that again is just my reading of things.

As well as there is always jealousy concerning what each of us know. We may have shared knowledge, but chances are we will never know. I for one have grown tired of the vandalism and trash that accumulates in places that I have thought special for over 30 years. Its not that I dont trust people, its who do you trust?Who here in all seriouness would reveal they found the LDM? I believe it would not be worth the notoriety or ridicule. I now understand that it is possibly better left as a myth for us to enjoy here, than a reality that shatters dreams and divides us all.
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Exchange Of Ideas

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

I always thought that was one of the really great things about this forum.
Not knowing what the "facts" are, but being able to ask questions, hopefully informed, and receive an education from those who have the knowledge.

You have shown yourself to be one of the most knowledgeable "amateur"(s) I have ever run across, in geology. Not that I know anything about the subject, but it is easy to research the different things you have mentioned, and then ask questions, or make comments that will generate a better understanding of your posts. I, for one, have appreciated your willingness to respond. It has been an education that I hope will continue.

I suppose the first question that comes to mind, would be why "specimen"
ore, of that value would be laying around in the volume the soldier said was there?

"So we come back to the tunnel. A tunnel that Ely indicates was under construction since the Don`s fathers time..."

Actually saying "since" instead of "from" changes that statement a bit.
I believe "since" gives the impression that the tunnel has been a continuing project, when it was reallly something that did not "appear" to be finished.

The problem with Waltz having "access to a number of mines in the area", is that there is not one shred of evidence pointing that way.
As for what Holmes may or may not have known, I would guess he did the same thing after Waltz's death, as he did before it. That would be to follow the person he believed could lead him to the mine. That would be Julia.

Once he realized she and her crew were wandering aimlessly through the
canyons, he did exactly what every modern-day Dutch Hunter should be doing.

The best evidence, in my opinion, as to how many trips Waltz may have made to the mine, and the duration of his stays, can be found in the works of James Bark and Sims Ely. How many and how long, hardly seems like something either man would have had reason to lie about.

If you assume that Jake did make "many" trips into his "bank", considering the richness of the ore that the Two Soldiers found laying on top of the ground, and what Joe Deering is suppose to have found, how much gold do you suppose old Jake brought out over the years and the "many" trips?

Think about that one.

You may be correct that "You can't reveal the location of the LDM without revealing the other." I also believe the LDM is shown on the Stone Maps.
The evidence is overwhelming.

Not sure what to make of the "pecan pie" comment. If that is a draw, I believe I may bring a number of them to the camp out.

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ILoveJoeRibaudo
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Specimen

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

Thank you Joe for that nice post. It was well thought out. You are a fine specimen of a man. Great going.

ILoveJoeRibaudo

PS Good for you Joe. Thank you.
Joe Ribaudo
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More

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Glad you liked it. You may want to go back and slobber over the rest of the reply.
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Slobber?

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

No Joe, I was not slobbering, just glad you made such a nice post. No need to be mean to your #1 fan. Thank you for making the forum what it is today. You are special !

ILoveJoeRibaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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Mean?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

I don't believe I was being "mean", Peter. It is you and Wyatt who are making the forum into what you want it to be. The two or twelve of you are a great argument for having a moderated forum.

I will keep posting, even if you are the only ones left.

Joe Ribaudo
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Peter

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

Yes I am Peter. You are really smart and good. Keep posting. We like your posts alot !

ILoveJoeRibaudo

He is good !
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