Where Is The Lost Dutchman-?

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djui5
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Post by djui5 »

Thanks Joe,
I guess that would have been the smart thing to do right? :lol: :lol:
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Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe

I know you are a real stickler on how things must "link up' with the Stone Maps but I did not understand your last response to Late 49er.

"Black Top Mesa is outside the heart,but it is marked on the Stone Maps".

I do not mean to appear to be stupid but would you explain what you are referring to for those of us that do not know?
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Black/Heart

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

You are correct, in that I know that all of the things on the trail maps must link up with the geography of the Superstitions and in the correct locations and proportions as shown on the Stone Maps.

Black Top Mesa is shown on the Stone Maps, but is not inside the removeable heart. I believe that is, pretty much, what I said to Late.

"In this particular case, Black Top Mesa is outside the heart, but it is marked on the Stone Maps." To be more specific, the northeast end of Black Top Mesa is shown on the Stone Maps.

After stating, on this Forum, that he had told no one, the information I gave him on the Stone Maps, Kevin then made himself a liar by saying that he told Peter that I had said the Stone Map Trail started in Hieroglyphic Canyon and the heart (end of the trail) was located in Little Boulder Canyon.

Anyone who can't put the rest of the trail maps together from that information, needs to find another hobby. :wink:

For anyone who is interested, here is an important clue concerning the Stone Map Trail:

The trail up Hieroglyphic Canyon is not how the Spanish miners entered the Superstitions. It is meant to lead you to the place where you can see all of the first map laid out beneath and in front of you. It is the place where the first map was drawn.

The second map is telling you where to enter the mountains with your animals. From that direction, you can't really see the maps, but you can easily lead a large pack train to the final location.

My opinion, assuming the maps are not a complete hoax, is that they show the locations of gold bars which were brought into the Superstitions from Mexico. Those bars were being hidden from the King or were made from gold stolen by Pancho Villa.

Assuming that the Pancho Villa theory is correct, you have an alleged direct connection to Ted De Grazia in the person of Marko Romero. Romero claimed he rode with Villa. I will provide the source for that information, if anyone wants it.

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Post by TC ASKEY »

Joe,

I can't argue with your conclusions over the Stone Maps but I can't agree with you either.
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Can't Agree?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Terry,

I don't expect anyone to agree with my conclusions. I have come to so many conclusions concerning those maps.......not sure which ones you are talking about. :lol:

Before anyone disagrees, they should take a little day hike to the top of Superstition Peak, set your ass down on a big rock on the north side and compare what you are looking at with a copy of the first trail map. You will also see a good deal of the second map from that location.

Few of you will go to that trouble, because it might mean giving up on your own conclusions. You are convinced you are right, and nothing will sway you from that certainty.

That's fine with me. :)

Take care,

Joe
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Post by TC ASKEY »

I never said I was right about anything Joe. One thing is for certain tho. We can all be wrong.
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Post by buscar »

TC ASKEY

The best clue I’ve read so far!!!

buscar :lol: :lol:
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Post by Bandit »

There is a location where I entered a canyon, at the level spot above a water fall area there is an old foundation. Not much of it there any more. The canyon splits, one fork goes north the other south west. the north side direction-going over the top is covered with crushed rose quartz. My brother found an old flat rock with a face drawn onto it. Left it there. the canyon going to the southwest has two large pinnicles that are on the left side of the ravine. Below the foundation and up on the side of the ledge is a small white cross with two drill holes beside it , one on each side. 50ft above the cross are two X's one directly above the other. the old cave there is completely caved in, has a flat rock over the top of it. Ernie Provence?

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Re: Sightings

Post by late49er »

The importance of Black Top to all things Dutchman can be illustrated by the following.


quote="Joe Ribaudo"]skeelos,



I believe it is very possible the LDM is on the north side of Black Top Mountain. Ruths body was found there; The Cactus Marker takes you there; The Spanish "Hieroglyphics are on the mountain; A decendent of the Peraltas had claims there; The Fish Map takes you there; The Stone Maps take you there; Dale Howard found a cave entrance with gold ore stacked in the tunnel which went towards the north and, a good many knowledgeable people had claims on the mountain.

I can give you many other reasons to believe Black Top Mountain is the location of the LDM.

Don't say I never give out any important information. I just did. That's at least as good as: I saw Waltz camped at Indian Spring. :roll:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo[/quote]


Seems to me we should be grateful to Joe for the most comprehensive statement I have seen regarding the importance of Blacktop to both the Stone Maps and the LDM.

Let`s see the heart is in Little Boulder Canyon. "From the head of Little Boulder Canyon there is a sight rock that looks right at a large heart on Black Top Mesa." Randy

Believe Randy also indicated that there could be a relationship between Black Top and Little Boulder Canyon referenced in the efforts of Team Fever. Someone else will have to jump in here. Not sure if that is correct. My brother is the math wiz and expert on the maps, hell I can`t even do much beyound basic algebra.

So why is it there is a visual clue that starts in Little Boulder Canyon and finishes in Blacktop. Perhaps as Randy has suggested there is something very importent there that can lead one to the end of the trail.

What then is at the end of the trail?

Believe Pahsaum said it best:

Ely: What was the appearance of the ore? What did it look like?
The old Pima pointed to the sky, and he said simply, "Like many stars"
"The Lost Dutchman Mine" Sims Ely, Page 153.

On a side bar, for me, this is the best description ever given of ore from the LDM. Not only does Pahsaum provide you with a description of the Gold itself but provides a telling description of the matrix the gold appears in. Compare this image with the pictures of the ore found under the Dutchman`s bed. Dare say they did not come from the same place.

So where does this leave us. From the heart to Black Top. From Black Top North. North is where another searcher of the maps is looking. From a trail that runs east to west not far from the Salt River. He makes a lot of noise.

One point to consider. For the mexicans, like the apache, and the ancient ones where the maps take you is holy ground. The irony is that in a relatively small area of the mountains the miners and the sacred came together as one. It was holy ground long before the maps came into existence. It will be holy ground long after the maps have crumbled to dust.

A place where several generations may have hidden things.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.


Regards,


Late 49er
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I Believe.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

Thanks for the kind words, but........

[I can give you many other reasons to believe Black Top Mountain is the location of the LDM.

Don't say I never give out any important information. I just did.]

I can also give many reasons why the LDM is not on Black Top. The best one would be the legion of searchers that have examined it over the years.

There was important information in that post. The location of the LDM is not any part of it.

For the most part I post ideas here, as opposed to facts. The purpose is to help foster pro and con dialog. Some take offense to that methodology
but it has worked quite well.

Randy's site hole leads him to Black Top. What if it is meant to be looked through from the opposite side? Perhaps the "target" on Black Top only confirms that you are at the correct starting point for another trail.

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Post by djui5 »

:D

I'll see if I can work the math on taking you from the Little Boulder heart, to the sight marker at the head of Little Boulder. Just haven't worked it out yet, too busy with drama on treasurenet 8O


Merry Christmas :)
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Re: I Believe.......

Post by djui5 »

Randy's site hole leads him to Black Top. What if it is meant to be looked through from the opposite side? Perhaps the "target" on Black Top only confirms that you are at the correct starting point for another trail.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,
No sir, I checked it both ways. I'm 100% positive it leads to Black Top Mesa.
I can also give many reasons why the LDM is not on Black Top. The best one would be the legion of searchers that have examined it over the years.
With all due respect, that doesn't mean the LDM is NOT there. It could mean no-one has found it yet. There is a void there someone never broke into 8O
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Coronado Mesa

Post by late49er »

Hello Joe,

If I remember correctly you indicated a while back that you folks had discovered a deposit of magnetite in the vicinity of the heart. Not sure if you mentioned what the nature of the deposit is but if it was a pipelike deposit it would be a indicator of gold. Somehow this reminds me of Pahsaum`s comments. Pahsaum seems to be describing a deposit that perhaps is rich in magnetite.

On the other hand if the magnetite accumulated under different circumstances it probably means nothing.

Seems like I remember a deposit rich in magnetite up in the Coronado Mesa area. Hell it is tough getting old. Can`t remember anything anymore. Much less see it without glasses.

Did you ever indicate what you found under the heart? I am getting a bit confused in my later years but some how that seems importent. Might be of some help in dating the maps.

Hi Randy,

A void in Black Top. Interesting maybe folks should have been looking for the gold of the LDM in Black Top not the LDM. A heart on Black Top wow good stuff. And a void too. Would not want to run into Dutchie in there. No place to run, no place to hide. He would simply torch you and have another dutch hunter for lunch.


Regards,


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Post by djui5 »

8O 8O
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Post by Mike McChesney »

I think that Blacktop Mesa is very interesting. For some reaszon, it has drawn my attention for a loooong time. It's also true, that just look at Robt. E. Lee's LDM Movie. When he went there, almost every foot of Blacktop was under claim, and he had to be helo'd in.

I guess if I knew for sure, I wouldn't be here in SoCal.

Best,

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Post by zentull »

There is usually the thought that such places have been covered with a fine tooth comb that there is nothing left hidden.

The sheer size of Peters Mesa and Bluff Springs would lead me to believe that if they have been covered, than so has everything else.

Over 30 years later I am still finding new ground to cover. Anyone that believes they have seen it all just gave up to save their sanity and/or marriage.

I believe if you want to find something, turn 40 boy scouts loose on a given area and just sit back and wait for the results. Youthful exuberance and curiosity would gain more than you can believe.
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Post by djui5 »

Told you the maps ended on Black Top, look here!

Image
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Das Fine Tooth Comb

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Not sure you, or I, can equate a few weekends a year in the Superstitions with those who lived in the mountains for many years, or even those who spent every winter in the mountains for twenty-five or thirty years.

I won't bother to list the names, but it is pretty long.

Consider this: You camp on Bluff Spring Mountain for five years. You search that mountain every day. Do you think 1825 days of searching could be considered a "fine tooth comb"?

Many of those "searchers" probably never got that far from their horses, like Bill Crader, Ted De Grazia, Tom Kollenborn, John Dahlmann...
but all of them rode their horses in "God-awfull rough country". :)

I believe Dahlmann searched Bluff Spring Mountain for five or six years.
I happen to know that members of Glenn Magill's original team searched that mountain for years.

Over the last 47 years, I admit to thinking I was walking, or climbing, where no man had ever been before. I learned, early on, that was not the case.....ever. It seems likely that many have passed within a few hundred feet of the LDM and had no idea it was there.

The idea that ropes were needed to do a good search, make me laugh.
When John Chunning finally started working the mine he thought was the LDM, he did not need ropes to get there.

When it comes to covering specific areas in the Superstitions "with a fine tooth comb", most of us are pikers compared to those who have gone before us.

All of this is my personal opinion, based on sharing coffee and lies with one or two Dutch Hunters, over the years.

Take care,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

The comment applied to those who have used it on the forum previously.

Always a big problem with people knowing what they are looking for.....causes one to forget what they should be looking for.
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Looking For........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Knowing what you are looking for requires a crystal ball. There are two sides and neither gave us the truth......but both gave us some of the truth.
Either Julia or Holmes lied (a bit) to us, or those who put their words in print lied.

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Post by zentull »

If looking at those who searched the mountains, there are only a few who devoted a lifetime actively searching. Dick Holmes searched for 17 years roughly. Though he died in 1933, his search like Brownies was cut short by a physical injury.

Brownie searched for 72 years as the crow flies, but again after 36 years he was incapacitated on his search.

Tex had a 47 year window, how much interest he had prior to acquiring the Quarter Circle U we don't know. Much of this was probably done from the back of a horse.

Julia Thomas had a very small search time in comparison to almost anyone.

In comparison Gottfried had only 22 years, but Rhiney had 51 years and Herman 71 years. It is doubtful that anyone covered the 144 years combined of the Petrasch family.

Combine the first hand accounts passed to the Holmes and Petraschs, it is an accumulated 197 years or 257 years, depending on how you account for their time. I doubt anyone put as much combined time as those 2 families. What did they come up with ?

Some of the most prolific searchers that are mentioned in every book, knew very little of what those families knew.

In the cases of Brownie, Rhiney and Herman it is often spoken how their search areas were wide and made no sense. The only person it had to make sense to was themselves.

Julia was looking for the rock face that was the first direction upon entering the western end of the mountains. They were looking for the first clue on the map, not the mine location I believe. Why they followed this direction rather than start from the Quarter Circle U is obvious. They had no clear direction from the boardhouse.
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Short List

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Not all of the people who spent years in the mountains made it into the books.

Al Morrow did not spend all of his time at his claim. He searched the area surrounding that claim for many years. That would include Black Top, Weavers Needle, Bluff Spring....and that's just the tip of that iceberg.

Chuck Ribaudo spent many years exploring Black Top Mesa, along with Dale Howard, Ernie Provence, Frank Peralta, Lake Erie Schaffer, Doc. Burbridge and a host of others.

Chuck, Ernie, Dale and Tracy Hawkins searched West Boulder, Old West Boulder, the main mountain, O'Grady Canyon and the surrounding ravines and canyons for a number of years.

Crazy Jake, Obie Stoker, Clay Worst, Jim Hatt, John Chunning, Bark/Ely,
and others we have talked about here, all had specific areas they searched for years. None of them confined themselves to those favorite haunts.

They are all just a drop in the bucket compared to the other searchers you have never heard of.

The LDM was never that hard to find......Just hard to see. :lol:

Take care,

Joe
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Post by zentull »

A lot of credible people would agree with your last statement, but quite a few credible people disagree as well. I sit on the fence, too many doubts and too many times this has happened before.

So many mines, which one is the one?

Not as easy to prove as one would think.

What if the reason Holmes got the ore was it wasn't the LDM ore? The only people we know handled Waltzs ore before his death were Petrasch and Thomas. We don't even know if it matched Holmes ore. Could have been Peralta cached ore Waltz had from a different source.

Just passing a thought there, but I felt the Goldfield issue was supported by someone who found some of Senners ore. A few people believe Waltz never entered the mountains and have proof as they believe it.
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Post by djui5 »

What if the reason Holmes got the ore was it wasn't the LDM ore? The only people we know handled Waltzs ore before his death were Petrasch and Thomas. We don't even know if it matched Holmes ore. Could have been Peralta cached ore Waltz had from a different source.


Juicy 8O
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Post by zentull »

Randy,

Let me take it a step further.......

If the mine was far further east than imagined, who was involved in the massacre? Did Holmes have massacre ore which was not LDM ore? Joe made a point of this that perhaps Julia was looking for that very source. Perhaps Holmes did as well. That could be because of Waltzs story of the massacre, maybe not. The trail of the ore found that matches the massacre ore falls more west and central in the mountains.

It is the little things that get me, like the twitch of an ear in the brush at 100 yards. Many a time I drew on a Buck only to have a Doe emerge.
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