Where Is The Lost Dutchman-?

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Knun
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Metric?

Post by Knun »

LDM,

As usual a very inciteful post. How do you organize the knowledge you possess? You never cease to amaze me!

I had no idea the military used metric back then. Since it is much easier to use, the question is, would civilians use it as well.

I would have to say they did not. No historical nor period personal references I have ran across have utilized the metric system.
LDM
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metric use

Post by LDM »

Deleted.
Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
late49er
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LDM and other things

Post by late49er »

Joe,

I am very interested in finding out some information on a George W. Hayes. Hayes reputedly acquired a fortune before he turned 21 from mining in Arizona and Mexico. He later relocated to Goldfield, Nevada, and was a business associate of Martin`s son, and a major player in the gold strike in Goldfield, particularly the Mohawk Mine.

Any information you might have would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry to read about the grief you are going through on this site. Folks who hide behind anonymous posts and say the kind of filthy things that have been said are well to be pitied. Irregardless of what has gone on in the past, I believe whatever you have said to folks has been said to their face. This bunch is a disgrace.


TGH,

Thank You for the insight into mining techniques employed in the Superstitutions. I have to admit I am amazed at some of the things I have run across. The mine that I have been mostly involved with utilized square set timbering which I find well unusual. The deposit is in very loose soil and I can understand the technology but I always thought this technology was not invented and utilized until the Comstock. Also not sure where the timber came from to do this. Oh well, it is what it is.

Regards,

Late49er
Gene Reynolds
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It's ashame..!

Post by Gene Reynolds »

A agree 49'er - it is really ashame that everyone can't get along . I have never seen so many problems about something so simple. I will not take sides here because there is no side to take. Joe R. has been kind to me and I admire his knowledge and ability. Wyatt has been kind to me as well...... Why would I want to pick sides because there are disagreements here. There are disagreements all through life - this is the place to talk about them - air them out - not fight about them.

I have not met a stupid person here - I have only met those with a difference of opinion. Isn't that why we are all here? To inform each other of our thoughts irregardless of how stupid they might be .......... it's a leanring curb.

I personally might now all I think there is about a subject - but am I so vain as to not listen to others - just in case I may have missed something ? Regardless of what I think I know - I must always be open minded if I want to learn.

Joe is not a bad person - I don't think The lady Jan is either - nor do I believe Wyatt is. I think you all are trying to make a point and some of you would rather fight than be open minded.

If I said I think the sun is purple - let it go without comment and move on. Just realize that perhaps I have my own opinion and maybe I am not as smart or talented in looking at the sun as the rest of you.

Joe has a very intelligent mine and can and has been a friend to most of you and has been very helpful to most of you as well. We all get out of bed on the wrong side occasionally and I do as well. As for Jan - she has added a good deal of what appears to be excellent information - and Wyatt - has added his share to. You are not going to agree with everyones opinion - but that's why it's called a forum - to be able to voice an opinion - right or wrong.

If you don't all get over this childs play - you will have this forum in the wash tub and down the drain quickly.

This is still a good forum and it has many good minds in it.........If you don't start working together now - you might as well chuck it and not come back. I for one am ready to do one or the other.

Either way - the decision is up to all of you as individuals.

Good luck - either way you decide to go.........

Gene Reynolds
Writer of Borrego 13
late49er
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LDM and other things

Post by late49er »

Hi Gene,

Good to hear from you. Hope everything is going well with you in Georgia. Should not be long before football season starts down there. I assume you are a Georgia Tech fan and will be rooting for the Yellow Jackets. They start off with Auburn this year. Hope they do well.

Yep sure would be nice if folks would put the knives back in their slieves instead of in each others backs, etc., One Would would think this site is a soap opera instead of a site dedicated to serious historical research on the history of the Superstituions, the Apaches and one should not forget the LDM and other things..

I owe you an apology for not sending your check out for the book until today. I was on holiday and left it on the kitchen table. To square it with you I have included a piece of high grade gold ore from a famous mine. Hope you enjoy it. It is from a mesothermal deposit.

Hi Jim

I think your comment regarding the Dutchman may have been aimed at my comments and I will do the best I can to respond. First off I don`t think bringing in a wagon of high grade gold ore into Phoenix would have done anyone any good. Besides Virginia City was well a lot of fun and well men will be men. Also there were a few folks there who would be glad to take it off your hands without a lot of grief. As far as the way Waltz ended up. I don`t think he was a pauper by anyones standards. I know Ely describes him a being melocholy but I know Waltz knew how to have a good time. Believe his depression was driven by losing his partner and other things. Believe Waltz came to realize with age that gold is where your heart is not necessarily the change in your pocket. By the way I really enjoyed reading your book on the Stone Maps. Thanks

Late49er

Regards,


Late49er
azdave35
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Post by azdave35 »

hi gene...i just wanted to thank you for the cd....i havent gotten around to read it yet but i'm looking forward to it..again thanks
Gene Reynolds
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Yellow who?

Post by Gene Reynolds »

49er - I assume you are a Georgia Tech fan and will be rooting for the Yellow Jackets

What's Georgia Tech? Are you trying to get me killed? I live 20 miles from Athens and the Bulldogs - I hope they all win! I hope the nugget you are sending me is huge - I haven't eaten this month!

You know - Jan brought a good point. A lot of people don't think the Jesuits weren't near the Superstitions and then on the other hand = some do. I personally do not know. My point being............. When I went to California - I went with the idea of proving not only was Adolph Ruth there in Borrego but the Peralta's as well. California historians laughed at me and thought I had lost my mind. The thing they never thought about was - there is a statue and a monument dedicated to Peralta in San Josa, 400 miles north of Borrego - due to a mission that was started there by that familly. How did they think the Peralta familly got to San Josa - TWA Airlines???

Actually - Borrego and the rest of southern california is now beginning to realize that from Spanish mining tools that have been found and some in the Borrego area and even a knife with a marking on it that had a suggestive mark the Peralta's used, that maybe the Peralta mining familly was here at some point. Gee - I wonder what took them so long to get it!

If you want to become good at something , you must read every possible fact you can find on it and then you must sort was really is fact from the possible fiction entered into it. Even then you may not have enough to draw a conclusion that is withstanding. Dealing with Father Kino, Adolph Ruth, Waltz, The Stone maps, and every story that is available will drive a person nuts trying to sort out the whole truth. the best you or I can hope for is to draw our own individual conclusions and then talk it out in a group such as this.

There are some very intelligent people here with a tremendous amount of talent and abiblity, why not put it all to work in one direction or even in two.? Each of us will learn more from discussing these things openly than yelling at each other about the color shoes we wear.

Each and every one of you have experiences and learning curbs that can benefit us all. Why not try this - you each have a story to tell - why not tell it so each of us can not only learn about you and your goals , but to better know you. "Hell", my lifes an open book - if you have the time - it all started back in 1944......... I know - you don't have that much time!

If you would like to see a closely knit club such as this forum could be - then work together - otherwise this forum is nothing more that a laugh and I don't believe that with the talent that is in here it should end up that way......

Az Dave - no more playing hookey from school = read the CD..........

It's all up to you Guys and Gals - The next step is yours -

Siting on the side=

Gene
Writer of Borrego 13
Joe Ribaudo
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Keep Fighting

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Gene,

There are many people on this forum who have come to know you pretty well. Knowing the challanges you will be facing next week, I am sure they would all want to wish you well, and some will keep you in their prayers.

I trust it will all turn out well, and you will be back giving us the "facts" in no time.

"When it comes time to chose sides", I will be honored to be on your's.

[While glancing back and forth at something in his hand, he told his son,
"Son, we're going after the 'Pegleg'" !] From both the beginning and the end of, "Borrrego 13" by, Gene Reynolds.

Two of the people you mentioned in your post will be shaking hands at Twin Buttes. Perhaps they will be the begining of the team you spoke of.

There is always the dream.

Take care, my friend.

Joe
ILoveJoeRibaudo
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Good for you !

Post by ILoveJoeRibaudo »

Good post Joe. Thanks for your input.

ILoveJoeRibaudo
Gene Reynolds
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Posting of nuggets

Post by Gene Reynolds »

I will try to post the Gold nuggets when I return from the hospital- I go in Friday the 2nd for the 10th time on the table. They are to Angio Plasty the legs for lack of circulation and also see if there is another blockage near the heart because I am having trouble breathing as well.

I wanted to post the nuggets before I went in but it ain't easy without a web site.

Larry - your CD is on the way.

Have fun - I shall return............

Gene
Writer of Borrego 13
bill711
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where is the dutchman

Post by bill711 »

Late49er; That wouldn,t be George W. GABBY HAYES would it? I thought that they invented the honey comb timbering in nevada??? :lol: bill 8)
late49er
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Gene`s Recovery

Post by late49er »

Hi Gene,

God bless and recover from your surgery. I sent the package out Saturday and should be there for your recovery. Hope you enjoy the sample. It isn`t a nugget but vein gold. Acutally I believe you can see the Gold is etwined in a wire like pattern in the matrix. Stay safe,

Hi Bill,

Nope it isn`t Gabby Hayes. Good try. This person was quite a mining engineer. Can`t quite figure out what he was involved in down there but from what I understand he did quite well as a young pup.

Your point about square set timbering is well taken. That is what I thought also. I know a German Mining Engineer invented it on the Comstock. Can`t remember his name will have to look it up. Having said that someone either had the same idea, or perhaps the concept was developed in Nevada and originated in Arizona. I really don`t understand the connection but there are a lot of similarities.


Regards,


Late 49er
bill711
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where is the lost dutchman

Post by bill711 »

Gene good luck with your operation. I think things will go well with you. Late49er; I think the square timbering was 1st Then the honeycomb that they still use today. I think in Navada they had cavein,s with the square timbering. Bill 8)
late49er
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Square Set Timbering

Post by late49er »

Hi Bill,

Hope things are going well with you folks down there. We are getting ready for the Balloon Races up here. Should be quite a week. Get folks in from all over.

I was able to research the matter a bit and the gentlemen who invented the timbering used on the Comstock was named Philipp Deidesheimer.

"Square sets consisist of short, square timbers, four to six feet long, mortised and tenoned at the ends so that they can be put together in a series of interlocked cribs and built up in a continuous row or block to any desired height or width, filling the whole chmber as fast as the ore is removed. By using diagonal braces they can be indefinitely strengthened, or made to fill a chamber of any shape. They can be framed together solidly, as is often done, so that the ore is replaced by a mass of lumber, or waste rock can be used so as to make solid pillars from floor to roof, or even to fill the entire space...the square sets became indispensable to all miners working large ore bodies.. They declared it could be no more be improved upon than the cells of a honeybee." pg 96-97 "The Story of the Mine"

Basically the timbering produced the honeycomb effect. Don`t believe there was another system used.

What I find particularly interesting about all of this is that I don`t have a clue where the wood came from to do this. In the Comstock the miners had access to the great forests of the Sierra Nevada. In the Superstitutions it is a different story.


Regards,


Late49er
bill711
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where is the lost dutchman

Post by bill711 »

Thank,s Late you cleared my memory up, I just remembered that it was a german and made a honeycom effect for safty. MOST of the mine doing,s came from germany at that time.. The spanish imported them in as engineers to work their mines for them. I think the spanish were very poooor in education and the few who were educated were done so out of the country, BUT the spanish could sniff out the valubles, metals and stones! Bill 8)
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Bill,

I believe the Spanish/Mexicans miners did a thorough job of mining, they just employed a methodology different from their Anglo counterparts. They followed the vein closely for the most part, removing only the amount of material necessary for the working.

The mining families involved in the Superstitions would have used the same methodologies that they employed in Mexico, California and Arizona...one that often used crosscuts to get at a vein...hence the frequently mentioned "tunnels" of LDM fame.

P
bill711
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Lost dutchman gold

Post by bill711 »

Pete; I have to agree with for the spanish But in the latter century the mexican employed the germans quite alot, NOT to say they ALL did so. Did you ever see the little cayote holes that they went thru to get the gold; some you had to hold your breath to get thru. They just followed the litttle vein wherever it went. Then they had the great big ole chicken ladder method; where they carried the ore in their hats? Bill 8)
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Bill

I was referring to mining done in the Supes. I do not believe the mining families involved in the Superstitions employed any German miners there...might be wrong, but I dont think so...unless you count Waltz !

P
bill711
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where is the lost dutchman

Post by bill711 »

Pete; I was talking about all over; BUT not the sup,s. I think only spanish/mexi,s were there. Bill 8)
late49er
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Re: The Dale Howard Story

Post by late49er »

To All:


The attached story was related to the forum by Joe and gives an account of the discovery of a concealed entrance to a cave in Black Top. Given Joe`s recent revelations regarding the Stone Maps does Dale`s story relate to those revelations?

Why would the Mexicans or whoever conceal a cave and why would the cave have a small pile of ore in it? What was so importent to make the effort to conceal the entrance with a boulder, a boulder that was hinged so to allow easy entrance and exit. A cave that had a tremendous flow of air?

A cave that maybe is lined up with the heart?

Perhaps what was placed in Black Top was always of more importence than what was taken out. More Maps?

Perhaps nothing.

Thanks to Joe for his sharing the story.


Regards,


Late 49er







[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]Late,

Here is the post where I told what I remembered of Dale Howard's story:

Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:00 pm Post subject: Dale Howard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dale told me the following story:
Prior to WW2, Dale and a friend were prospecting the area of Black Top Mountain. They were working there way around the South end about half way up the mountain. Dale lost his footing and grabbed a large boulder. The boulder moved away from the mountain and he fell to the ground. They were suprised to find that the boulder was hinged in some way and opened and closed with ease. It concealed a cave. They did not have a flashlight, so they bundled some dry brush together and lit it. As they entered the cave the fire would not stay lit due to a tremendous air current coming into the entrance. They surmised that it had another opening farther up. A small pile of ore lay in the entrance. They removed the ore and pushed the boulder back into it's original position. At this time they were fairly excited, as you might imagine. They decided to make a map.
After they had drawn the map, they did a dangerous thing. They begain to think. In fear that someone might gain possesion of the map, or copy it, they decided to reverse and change some of the directions. Only the two of them would be able to restore the information needed to locate the entrance. I am sure you can all see this coming. They went home to Northern California, and had the ore assayed. Of course it was very rich gold ore. They made plans to return. WW2....... When the two friends returned from doing there duty, they put their lives and family back together. Jobs, kids, wives and the wounds of war put off there return to the mountains. One of them moved, I think Dale, and they drifted thru the years, always saying they must return to the cave.
At last they made concrete plans to meet in Apache Junction and return to Black Top Mountain. Dale arrived and waited for his friend to show up. He never did. Turns out he had a heart attack and died. Dale eventually made his own trip in. Once on Black Top he got out his map and started looking for the entrance. It had been fifteen or twenty years and Dale had no idea what they had changed on the map. He spent many years blowing up the South side of Black Top at the approximate elivation he thought was correct. He never found the entrance. I heard that Dale's wife shot and killed him. Anyone know if thats true?

Respectfully,

Joe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I might change "hinged" for balanced, as that probably was the case. Also, Tracy Hawkins said that Dale's wife did not shoot him. I think he said Dale died from cancer. It'a always a good idea to get every ounce of pleasure out of each smoke, as you never know which one will be your last. :roll:

Tracy knew Dale much better than I did, so if he is still looking in on the forum, he might remember Dale's story and have another version.

As for Black Top Mesa being "too sensitive to discuss", you should know, like everything else, it has been discussed to a fair-thee-well here. Not only has it been well talked about, but you may not have an idea of how many claims and people have covered that piece of ground.

I have often said that many maps and stories will place you on Black Top Mesa, to the exclusion of any other place. The "Fish Map" is a great example. A lot of very intelligent and knowledgeable Dutch Hunters have made a home on Black Top.

For those who know what a blow-hard I am, and believe I post on subjects I know nothing about, you should skip this next passage. No need to get yourselves all worked up for nothing.

Here is a clue for all who read my post's waiting for one to fall:

The "Fish Map" leads to Black Top Mesa. No big secret, right? The secret is that it is a smoke screen. That does not mean it isn't an important map, leading to a specific location. It does. Are we back to a Spanish Code, or is that just more smoke? :?

I appreciate your addressing your question to me, as it is bad form. I am coming to understand, to comment on posts which are not directly addressed to you. When you boil it all down to basics, that is what has annoyed my friends here. That and exposing the truth about some of the posters has been my big mistake. It was not my job to do that, and I will nod my head with rest of the members in the future.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo[/quote]
late49er
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The LDM and other things

Post by late49er »

All,

And one other consideration.

What does all of this have to do with the most importent LDM and Christmas?


Regards,


Late49er
Joe Ribaudo
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Stories

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Late,

Good to see you back.

Everything in the Superstitions is "lined up" with the Stone Map Heart. In this particular case, Black Top Mesa is outside the heart, but it is marked on the Stone Maps.

One of the many keys to authenticating the Stone Maps, is the fact that an old trail that is not shown on Topographic maps, is shown on the north end of Black Top Mesa, on the Stone Maps.

While that helps authenticate the location of the maps, it does not mean that they are not a hoax. It means that whoever made the maps knew the trail was there because he had been on it.

The last "unknown" location, is the X that is pointed out by the triangle-slash. That X is not on Black Top Mesa. That does not mean it is not the Dale Howard cave/mine. Considering the lapse of time, it is not hard to imagine that Dale was confused as to where he was when he discovered the entrance.

The other opening for that cave/mine may very well be the Bob Brady cave of gold bars. As far as I know, that cave was found by Al Morrow, and he later denied that he found it. In any case......he showed no signs of having located a fortune.

The area of that X is fairly simple to figure out but the exact location remains a mystery.

Could the other end of that entrance be Brady's location for the gold bars? If he was telling the truth, I would bet on it. Are they still there, I would bet not.

Joe Ribaudo
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Pictures

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

The pictures are both from the same photograph, as best I can remember.

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Stories

Post by djui5 »

The last "unknown" location, is the X that is pointed out by the triangle-slash. That X is not on Black Top Mesa.
Joe Ribaudo

Well, as I posted before I've connected Little Boulder Canyon to Black Top Mesa. It's in my opinion that the maps are telling you to go to Little Boulder Canyon, as you have figured out Joe, then from there you have to find the final location. Well from the head of Little Boulder Canyon there is a sight rock that looks right at a large heart on Black Top Mesa. I'm not sure how many people have found this rock, as I haven't heard it talked about much, but it's right there. It's also in my opinion that whatever is/was in that cave, the one you all tried to get into, and was found by Dale, is what the stone maps are sending you to. Whatever was/is in that cave is the final directions to get to location X.

Not knowing exactly where that cave is has prevented me from proving this theory, but I will stand by it as it makes the most sense to me considering what I have found, and reports of what others have found. I have a very clear picture of that large heart. It's about 15-18' tall, and is "hidden".

I'm unfamiliar with the Brady cave, unless I have forgotten that story after hearing it somewhere.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
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Brady

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Randy,

Just do a "search" for Brady. The story should come up in that collection of posts.

Joe
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