Gold in the Superstitions.
Gold in the Superstitions.
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Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
LDM
Nice to see you posting again. We have much to chit chat about.
I believe I said in the past that I will not comment on this subject. However, it has always made me wonder about the public account: ie...John Cochera and his brother hike up to Peters Mesa with a map showing an old mine or cache...find an old leather saddle bag under some brush near the Salt Flats and then hike on out. Seems far-fetched..but who can say for sure what happened.
There is more to this story than meets the eye. Thats about all I will say about it here.
P
Nice to see you posting again. We have much to chit chat about.
I believe I said in the past that I will not comment on this subject. However, it has always made me wonder about the public account: ie...John Cochera and his brother hike up to Peters Mesa with a map showing an old mine or cache...find an old leather saddle bag under some brush near the Salt Flats and then hike on out. Seems far-fetched..but who can say for sure what happened.
There is more to this story than meets the eye. Thats about all I will say about it here.
P
Kochera gold in the Superstitions.
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Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
LDM
I doubt I could tell you any more than you already know about the subject matter. As you know I just putter around and try to help out when I can in my own small way.
I have no desire to end up like Mr Cochera...not for a long while at any rate.
Their reach is long and they never forgive...or forget.
V
V
V
V
I doubt I could tell you any more than you already know about the subject matter. As you know I just putter around and try to help out when I can in my own small way.
I have no desire to end up like Mr Cochera...not for a long while at any rate.
Their reach is long and they never forgive...or forget.V
V
V
V
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Joe Ribaudo
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Kochera/Cochera
LDM and Peter,
I know nothing about the Kochera ore, other than what I have read.
It is interesting that you spell his name, Cochera as opposed to Kochera.
The reason it is interesting, is because Cochera does not come up one (1) time in a search of Ancestry.com. There are, however, many Kocheras.
In addition to that, Dr. Glover sites a letter from "John B. Kochera" dated 7 Dec. 1991 That letter, along with the "Kochera Ore", were sold to Ron Feldman for $500, by Mr. Kochera.
One would assume that the writer of that letter knew how to spell his own name. While Dr. Glover may have made a mistake in the spelling, it is passing strange that no Cocheras are found in my search.
It seems to me, that Ron would be the one to verify the spelling. Can you tell us why you have another spelling of the name, without giving away any secrets?
For those who don't know, cochera is Spanish for garage. Originally it meant a place for storing a carraige or cart. A strange surname. Cochero would be "coachman" and a more likely surname.
Respectfully,
Joe
I know nothing about the Kochera ore, other than what I have read.
It is interesting that you spell his name, Cochera as opposed to Kochera.
The reason it is interesting, is because Cochera does not come up one (1) time in a search of Ancestry.com. There are, however, many Kocheras.
In addition to that, Dr. Glover sites a letter from "John B. Kochera" dated 7 Dec. 1991 That letter, along with the "Kochera Ore", were sold to Ron Feldman for $500, by Mr. Kochera.
One would assume that the writer of that letter knew how to spell his own name. While Dr. Glover may have made a mistake in the spelling, it is passing strange that no Cocheras are found in my search.
It seems to me, that Ron would be the one to verify the spelling. Can you tell us why you have another spelling of the name, without giving away any secrets?
For those who don't know, cochera is Spanish for garage. Originally it meant a place for storing a carraige or cart. A strange surname. Cochero would be "coachman" and a more likely surname.
Respectfully,
Joe
Kochera / Cochera gold
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Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Indian Angle
LDM,
Welcome back.
Thank you for your reply.
I forgot to add my suspicion that the Kochera brothers might be Indian.
Not sure if I had heard of that earlier, or if Peter's post planted that in my mind.
I assumed there was good reason for the two spellings and just wondered what they were.
I had found John B. Kochera in Effingham, Ill but at another address. Birthdate was 7 Aug 1928 and death was recorded as, 4 Jun 2001. I assume that's our man.
Thanks for clearing it up.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Welcome back.
Thank you for your reply.
I forgot to add my suspicion that the Kochera brothers might be Indian.
Not sure if I had heard of that earlier, or if Peter's post planted that in my mind.
I assumed there was good reason for the two spellings and just wondered what they were.
I had found John B. Kochera in Effingham, Ill but at another address. Birthdate was 7 Aug 1928 and death was recorded as, 4 Jun 2001. I assume that's our man.
Thanks for clearing it up.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Haywood
LDM,
More interesting than Kochera, might be Mr. Haywood. Is that all that is available on him, a last name? Lots of Haywoods in the history of Arizona.
Have you considered coming to the campout? I would guess that at least one of your good friends will be there, perhaps more. if you decide to make the trip, I believe everyone will want to meet and talk to you. For all I know, I may be the only one who hasn't.
If he makes it, I believe Late 49er will be someone else everyone will want to hear from. Greg Davis may be fielding a "few" questions concerning the LDM.
As I look at the growing list, I see a lot of people who are concentrating on a variety of different aspects of the legends surrounding the Supes.
That should make for some interesting conversations.
There are a few people I would really like to see there, who have already said they can't or just plain "Hell No!". There are no winners in that deal.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
More interesting than Kochera, might be Mr. Haywood. Is that all that is available on him, a last name? Lots of Haywoods in the history of Arizona.
Have you considered coming to the campout? I would guess that at least one of your good friends will be there, perhaps more. if you decide to make the trip, I believe everyone will want to meet and talk to you. For all I know, I may be the only one who hasn't.
If he makes it, I believe Late 49er will be someone else everyone will want to hear from. Greg Davis may be fielding a "few" questions concerning the LDM.
As I look at the growing list, I see a lot of people who are concentrating on a variety of different aspects of the legends surrounding the Supes.
That should make for some interesting conversations.
There are a few people I would really like to see there, who have already said they can't or just plain "Hell No!". There are no winners in that deal.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Gold in the Sup,s
LDM; Is this the same kochera of the lost addems diggings fame? The guide who was called gotch-ear? Who was located in New Mexico for awhile? Maybe these are his kids or grandsons? bill
Gold in the Sup,s
LDM I seem to remember that got-ear was as close to his apache name as the whites could get, so that,s what they nicknamed him. I beleive he was reared by his mother/grannie. I don,t think he had a father either, he may have been some white too. I don,t think there was very much to say about him that was known he stayed off to his self all the time. He was not a people person, a loner I guess...Until later in life when he married . Bill 
>>It is strange that the SanCarlos tribe is so open and helpful on some of the tribes ancestry and history and with others it's name, rank and serial number and thats all you can get out of them, they close up tighter than a clam. <<
Much of it depends upon whether or not we are talking about a "traditionalist" vs a "modern" Apache. The latter are more open, the former less so....
For example, I attended a lecture last summer given by a man I consider to be the greatest living expert on all things Apache. He spoke at length about his mothers side of the family naming names, anecdotes etc.... He would not discuss his fathers side and even gave out some misinformation
to the folks there. Totally understandable as I knew where he was coming from...but it does lend credence to LDMs remarks about folks at San Carlos.
Much of it depends upon whether or not we are talking about a "traditionalist" vs a "modern" Apache. The latter are more open, the former less so....
For example, I attended a lecture last summer given by a man I consider to be the greatest living expert on all things Apache. He spoke at length about his mothers side of the family naming names, anecdotes etc.... He would not discuss his fathers side and even gave out some misinformation
to the folks there. Totally understandable as I knew where he was coming from...but it does lend credence to LDMs remarks about folks at San Carlos.
"Busca!"LDM wrote:TGH,
What you have said is true, you can almost see when they draw the line, they will talk to a point and then it abruptly ends and there is no more that you can urge them to say.
Case in point, a contemporary of Kochera's grandfather at San Carlos, a man named Yoohnha (Silas Edwards), I tried to talk about him and met a stonewall. Few acknowledged him and the little that was said was guarded like they were weighing every word before they spoke. He was murdered on the reservation sometime in the 1940's, I was taken to the area where he was buried in the old Apache tradition. The Apache will not take you to one of these gravesites but will stay off a distance, point and say, it is over there.
I do indeed. It's good to have you back, LDM.LDM wrote: They will not speak his name but refer to him by other means. Near the site were offerings and ceremonial things left both from years ago and recently. It was in the farthest reachest of the reservation along the Nantanes Plateau, literraly the middle of nowhere. Silas Edwards as he was known was a religious man, the SanCarlos tribe believed him to be the "Apache Jesus", sent by Yossen to redeem his people and restore them to their former power.
The white man said he started a religion on the reservation, but he did not start one he revived an old one and for that he was arrested by government agents and taken to Phoenix and jailed. He was never charged and when he returned to SanCarlos he was persecuted by the government and so were his followers. Odds Halseth , the famous Arizona historian and anthropologist took several photos of him and his followers and his photo appears in the Phoenix police book of arrest photographs. Save for that, it is almost as though the man never existed even though he was involved with one of the most pivitol periods of the tribes history.
One of his religious teachings was that before the Apache people could again achieve greatness, all the gold taken by the tribe from the sacred places had to be restored (returned to Yossen) . This caused a rift within the tribe that still exists to this day. Do you understand what I am saying and what it has to do with this thread.
aow, shik'isn.... distsag........dantsag
Which is why I do not talk about this subject here. Lots of idiots out there (some of whom we call friend in the Valley) that wouldnt think twice about stirring up a hornets nest, if they thought they could get away with it. What they dont understand and refuse to comprehend is that there are other eyes besides the human kind watching over things up top.
P
Which is why I do not talk about this subject here. Lots of idiots out there (some of whom we call friend in the Valley) that wouldnt think twice about stirring up a hornets nest, if they thought they could get away with it. What they dont understand and refuse to comprehend is that there are other eyes besides the human kind watching over things up top.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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What Just Happened?
LDM,
I understand the age and too busy thing completely.
I am having so much pain in my shoulders and back, I am ready for pain killers. 
We are also very busy with our new business. Should have my head examined for starting a new career at 60.
That being said, I would not miss this campout, short of death. If need be, I would have the wife cart me down there in the back of our Expedition, have the guys lift me out and put me in a wheelchair. I have do doubt there will be some lifetime friends made here.
I have only seen one other gathering like this, and I believe there were only four or five of you guys around the campfire, have to replay the tape. None of you really wanted to talk. Seemed like a "camara" thing for the tourist trade.
I don't expect to do any hiking, but I have a quad. If need be, I will hike as far from the quad as needed. I will be staying in a "Toybox" trailer and will not be "roughing" it. Those days are over and have been for a number of years. Jesse can tell you what kind of camp I had while in the Supes.
We often measured our search elevations in the thousands of feet from our camps. I guess you could say we were all just getting too old.
If you decide to change your mind, it would be my pleasure to meet you.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I understand the age and too busy thing completely.
I am having so much pain in my shoulders and back, I am ready for pain killers. We are also very busy with our new business. Should have my head examined for starting a new career at 60. That being said, I would not miss this campout, short of death. If need be, I would have the wife cart me down there in the back of our Expedition, have the guys lift me out and put me in a wheelchair. I have do doubt there will be some lifetime friends made here.
I have only seen one other gathering like this, and I believe there were only four or five of you guys around the campfire, have to replay the tape. None of you really wanted to talk. Seemed like a "camara" thing for the tourist trade.
I don't expect to do any hiking, but I have a quad. If need be, I will hike as far from the quad as needed. I will be staying in a "Toybox" trailer and will not be "roughing" it. Those days are over and have been for a number of years. Jesse can tell you what kind of camp I had while in the Supes.
We often measured our search elevations in the thousands of feet from our camps. I guess you could say we were all just getting too old.
If you decide to change your mind, it would be my pleasure to meet you.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Repeat Performance
Wiz,
"LDM wrote:"
"TGH,
What you have said is true, you can almost see when they draw the line, they will talk to a point and then it abruptly ends and there is no more that you can urge them to say.
Case in point, a contemporary of Kochera's grandfather at San Carlos, a man named Yoohnha (Silas Edwards), I tried to talk about him and met a stonewall. Few acknowledged him and the little that was said was guarded like they were weighing every word before they spoke. He was murdered on the reservation sometime in the 1940's, I was taken to the area where he was buried in the old Apache tradition. The Apache will not take you to one of these gravesites but will stay off a distance, point and say, it is over there."
Wiz said:
"Busca!"
LDM wrote:
"They will not speak his name but refer to him by other means. Near the site were offerings and ceremonial things left both from years ago and recently. It was in the farthest reachest of the reservation along the Nantanes Plateau, literraly the middle of nowhere. Silas Edwards as he was known was a religious man, the SanCarlos tribe believed him to be the "Apache Jesus", sent by Yossen to redeem his people and restore them to their former power.
The white man said he started a religion on the reservation, but he did not start one he revived an old one and for that he was arrested by government agents and taken to Phoenix and jailed. He was never charged and when he returned to SanCarlos he was persecuted by the government and so were his followers. Odds Halseth , the famous Arizona historian and anthropologist took several photos of him and his followers and his photo appears in the Phoenix police book of arrest photographs. Save for that, it is almost as though the man never existed even though he was involved with one of the most pivitol periods of the tribes history.
One of his religious teachings was that before the Apache people could again achieve greatness, all the gold taken by the tribe from the sacred places had to be restored (returned to Yossen) . This caused a rift within the tribe that still exists to this day. Do you understand what I am saying and what it has to do with this thread."
Wiz said:
"I do indeed. It's good to have you back, LDM."
I liked what they said, and what you said so well, that I just wanted to repeat it, in case someone missed it.
Joe
"LDM wrote:"
"TGH,
What you have said is true, you can almost see when they draw the line, they will talk to a point and then it abruptly ends and there is no more that you can urge them to say.
Case in point, a contemporary of Kochera's grandfather at San Carlos, a man named Yoohnha (Silas Edwards), I tried to talk about him and met a stonewall. Few acknowledged him and the little that was said was guarded like they were weighing every word before they spoke. He was murdered on the reservation sometime in the 1940's, I was taken to the area where he was buried in the old Apache tradition. The Apache will not take you to one of these gravesites but will stay off a distance, point and say, it is over there."
Wiz said:
"Busca!"
LDM wrote:
"They will not speak his name but refer to him by other means. Near the site were offerings and ceremonial things left both from years ago and recently. It was in the farthest reachest of the reservation along the Nantanes Plateau, literraly the middle of nowhere. Silas Edwards as he was known was a religious man, the SanCarlos tribe believed him to be the "Apache Jesus", sent by Yossen to redeem his people and restore them to their former power.
The white man said he started a religion on the reservation, but he did not start one he revived an old one and for that he was arrested by government agents and taken to Phoenix and jailed. He was never charged and when he returned to SanCarlos he was persecuted by the government and so were his followers. Odds Halseth , the famous Arizona historian and anthropologist took several photos of him and his followers and his photo appears in the Phoenix police book of arrest photographs. Save for that, it is almost as though the man never existed even though he was involved with one of the most pivitol periods of the tribes history.
One of his religious teachings was that before the Apache people could again achieve greatness, all the gold taken by the tribe from the sacred places had to be restored (returned to Yossen) . This caused a rift within the tribe that still exists to this day. Do you understand what I am saying and what it has to do with this thread."
Wiz said:
"I do indeed. It's good to have you back, LDM."
I liked what they said, and what you said so well, that I just wanted to repeat it, in case someone missed it.
Joe
Gold in the Sup,s
Joe; I,ll say ahso for the 1st saying of it but moo moo moo for the other times. Joe you say you are getting rusty? YOU need to quit drinking, layoff milk and cheese, no pasta, all tobaco products that smoke, and get you a inhaler. YOU will then need some young stuff steady for once a week to get your juices flowing again, your wife will do the other day of the week if she is up to it. In no time at all you will feel like a brand new man.. bill P.S. The young stuff is to bring back your youth. OH, and wear boxer shorts too, it helps the juices flow..
bill P.S. The young stuff is to bring back your youth. OH, and wear boxer shorts too, it helps the juices flow..-
Joe Ribaudo
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Too Much Of A Good Thing?
Bill,
Are you saying you get your juices flowing more than two or three times a year?
Man's got to know his limits! Only got so much juice. You must spend the rest of your time in a hammock.
Respectfully,
Joe
Are you saying you get your juices flowing more than two or three times a year?
Man's got to know his limits! Only got so much juice. You must spend the rest of your time in a hammock.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
"Sacred Places"
LDM,
You said:
"One of his religious teachings was that before the Apache people could again achieve greatness, all the gold taken by the tribe from the sacred places had to be restored (returned to Yossen) . This caused a rift within the tribe that still exists to this day. Do you understand what I am saying and what it has to do with this thread".
I understood that the Apache believed that "Mother Earth" herself is sacred, and that gold should not be "torn from her bowels." In other words, you would be doing injury to her.
If that is true, and I believe it is, then what you are saying is: That the gold that was taken by the tribe from the "sacred places", was gold that had been taken from mother earth by others, and the tribe then took it from their hidding places. Those places would have been in special (sacred) areas, such as, Dzil Nchaa Si An.
On the other hand, you could be talking about the gold mine that Cochise had his son working. It would appear that he may have had a different outlook on taking gold from the earth. That story may or may not be true, but the source was pretty good.
You have asked Peter if he understood what you said and what it has to do with this thread. He has given you a great sign of respect, by calling you brother, he has said he only calls one man brother, and also saying that "we understand" and that he "understands".
Naturally the first question that comes to mind is, who are "we"? I understand if that is not something you wish to address, and Apache silence will be sufficient speach on the matter.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
You said:
"One of his religious teachings was that before the Apache people could again achieve greatness, all the gold taken by the tribe from the sacred places had to be restored (returned to Yossen) . This caused a rift within the tribe that still exists to this day. Do you understand what I am saying and what it has to do with this thread".
I understood that the Apache believed that "Mother Earth" herself is sacred, and that gold should not be "torn from her bowels." In other words, you would be doing injury to her.
If that is true, and I believe it is, then what you are saying is: That the gold that was taken by the tribe from the "sacred places", was gold that had been taken from mother earth by others, and the tribe then took it from their hidding places. Those places would have been in special (sacred) areas, such as, Dzil Nchaa Si An.
On the other hand, you could be talking about the gold mine that Cochise had his son working. It would appear that he may have had a different outlook on taking gold from the earth. That story may or may not be true, but the source was pretty good.
You have asked Peter if he understood what you said and what it has to do with this thread. He has given you a great sign of respect, by calling you brother, he has said he only calls one man brother, and also saying that "we understand" and that he "understands".
Naturally the first question that comes to mind is, who are "we"? I understand if that is not something you wish to address, and Apache silence will be sufficient speach on the matter.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Gold in the Sup,s
NO Joe BUT 1st YOU have to get your rusty motor started... bill