Are You On THE Trail

[frankpend]

I'm new here but have enjoyed reading this forum. I grew up riding in the supers with my dad. We never did look for the ldm although we talked about it.

Anyway I found a reference by Kollenborn stating that there was a place called Frog Tanks in the First Water- Hackberry Spring area. This area does seem to fit the military map in Mr. Glover's book.

I don't know very much at all about the ldm, not compared to the rest of the contributors at least.

Frankpend

[TGH]

Goodbye

[TGH]

Goodbye

[Joe Ribaudo]

Frank,

I was just getting ready to respond to your post when Peter popped-up.

Actually Tom Kollenborn said: "A large and prominent rancheria was located in Garden Valley. This site was originally called Indian Gardens. A smaller, but well know site was located at First Water or Frog Tanks.
The actuall site of Frog Tank Rancheria was about a half of a mile north of the old Barkley headquarters near what is called Hackberry Springs today."

Since Mr. Kollenborn says the site was "well known", I would read the above statement to mean that First Water and Frog Tanks were one and the same.

I am not sure that his comments (in the same article) concerning how the Apache "controlled the mountains" is correct. I don't believe the Apache ever "controlled" the Superstitions. I put some of my comments in bold, in case Mr. Kollenborn wants to correct me. I would not be surprised if I were wrong here, but there are more than a few sources for my beliefe.

Welcome to being a "new" poster. You have been here for quite a while.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

My friend,

There is no need for you to suffer such "disappointment". Unless you want to supply me with your personal information, just quit sending me private messages.

If you give me your real name, phone number, address and e-mail address, I will be happy to exchange private messages and e-mails with you.

I won't hold a grudge, if you will just get real. The only way that can happen, is if you quit hiding behind the curtain. When I insult someone on this forum, it is Joe Ribaudo doing the talking. When you insult someone, "no one" is speaking.

I don't mind answering for the things I say. If I speak out of turn or make a mistake I will apologize. Happens to me all the time. If that occurs, I am not ashamed to admit my error.

I suppose there are some on this site who have more notoriety than Ron Feldman, Dr. Glover or Greg Davis, but for some reason none of them are afraid to use their real names. Now why would they be willing to take such a chance?

Sending me veiled threats disguised as "friendly" warnings of things that might happen, has been a long standing habit of your's. I have called you on it before, and I can't imagine what compels you to keep going back to that same old poisoned well.

I will do just fine without your "well meaning" advise.

Joe Ribaudo

[Wiz]

For those who don't know what the above is about, I sent the following PM to Joe a couple of days ago:

---------
"I'm sure this has already occurred to you, but...

The location of your campsite is known, and several respectable forum members will be there. And now, the insane Wyatt has expressed an interest in the event. You might be wise to take precautions against any potential (unpleasant) scenarios that may suggest themselves based on these facts.

Just a thought. I'd hate to see anyone get hurt."
---------

Joes initial reply was that he had already thought of that, and that he was going to insist on full information on anyone who wanted to come. I pointed out that anyone can go anywhere they want in the mountains, so requirements don't really mean anything.

Since he has chosen to make this public (not the first time), as well as accusing me of threatening him (!), you all may as well know about it. Does anyone else interpret the above as a "threat"? I have never once threatened anyone on this site in any way. Of course, I'm sure Ribaudo receives threats all the time, so he probably sees them everywhere. Not my problem, though.

To the extent that we converse on this forum, I consider several of those who plan to attend this camping trip to be friends, or at least friendly. My message addressed my concern for their safety, considering Wyatt's offer to show up with his friends. I understand that Ribaudo is paranoid, even delusional, and that he is armed when in the mountains. However, the majority of dutch hunters I know do not carry weapons.
Finally, I was told that Ribaudo does not trade PM's with anyone unless he knows their name, address, phone number, and email address, and that there would be no further PM's between us. This elicited my response "I'll try to contain my disappointment" (just so you understand that reference).
Anyone who wants to fill out an application to be in Ribaudo's little clique is certainly welcome to do so.

Another accusation I can live without is that of being your "friend". You, Ribaudo, are an arrogant jerk. "I won't hold a grudge..." - bah! Every time I have ever tried to converse with you, you come back with some crack about my "bullshit attack" or "threat". I've learned that you're just not worth the trouble.
You've been trying to find out who I am for years. This in itself is a good reason not to tell you. Learn to contain your own disappointment. I owe you nothing. Maybe some day you'll find out. This prospect doesn't worry me either.
I fully expect some acid-tounged response now from Ribaudo or one of his lickspittles. It doesn't matter - fire away, I won't reply to any of it.

As for the rest of you in the camping party, I hope you have a great time. It seems kind of warm for a camping trip, though.

And the word is "advice" (a noun), not "advise" (a verb).

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

I never mentioned your name. Have you just disclosed the contents of a private message?

"Joe

My (private) message to you was intended as a gesture of sympathy, since the outward appearance was that at a point when you appeared embattled on this forum, an evident newcomer was making what looked like completely uninformed statements, and then switching to how great you are. I was attempting to express solidarity with you in what seemed to be an embarrassing situation. It appears the joke was once again lost on you.
Now, however, you have now crossed the line. You have made a private message public, demonstrating that you cannot be trusted. I suspected as much all along. I assume you expect the same treatment from me.
And you have called me a coward, demonstrating that, as Peter has been saying all along, you apparently don't have a brain in your head. You insist that every remark directed toward you is an act of scorn and derision. This is what is called a self-fulfilling prophecy. People become scornful of you because that is all you merit.
Yes. Everyone knows who you are and where you can be found. It's just that no one cares."

Let's see, are you trying to "express solidarity" and "sympathy" again?

The exact time and place has not been decided yet. When it is, it will not be announced on a public forum.

I believe I thanked you for your advice. No doubt you felt it was needed for someone without "a brain".

Perhaps you might want to name my "lickspittles". I won't dispute your assertion that I am "an arrogant jerk". Many people would, no doubt, agree with you.

Your post is the very reason I ask for private information. Not that I care who you are, but to create a more cival conversation. You assume I don't already know who you are. It's never a good idea to make assumptions, as we may have the same friends.

I may be all of the things you say I am, but you are the one who sent me the private message. Don't want to talk to me, don't send me messages.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

I don't think the people who are coming on this campout could be considered a "clique". I have never met most of them. Since you consider many of them "friends", you should consider joining us. You are on this forum for the same reason as everyone else, I believe, so the exchange of opinions and information at such a meeting of Dutch Hunters should be right up your alley.

I can assure you that I will be as friendly as you are to me, in person, that is. This will not be a trip for people who are interested in a personal vendetta. We will all be "brothers" in camp. If you can handle that, pack your gear and join in. As I already have enough information to contact you by e-mail, I will make an exception to the rule for you, Peter as well. If there is a cross word exchanged in camp, it will not be from me. Good chance to meet the "friends" you have only talked to here.

As for Wyatt, I doubt he could gather five friends, outside of his brain pan.

Guns have been part of my life since around the age of thirteen. They are tools I am quite comfortable with. I have no problem with folks who prefer not to have them around. Other than Al Morrow, I don't believe I have ever met a Dutch Hunter who does not carry a gun in the Superstitions. I know all types of Dutch Hunters. Some pray before every meal, and some who don't. They have all carried guns while in the mountains.

As I have mentioned before, I am paranoid, but not dangerously so. Just a mite careful. Am I delusional? Perhaps, but you are the first person in sixty years to suggest the possibility, and you don't even know me.

You are welcome to join the party. It is not mine, just something I suggested that took on a life of it's own.

Joe Ribaudo

[TGH]

Oh my.................

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

Very cryptic....... That would be the opposite of some of your other posts.

Joe Ribaudo

[Wyatt Westwood]

Oh My indeed!

Are you guys really that paranoid that your afraid of me?
Do you honestly think I'm going to hurt someone? I have personally enjoyed the sparing with you fellows and it pains me deeply to think you would take my asking to come along with my well known Lost Dutchman Hunters in my group as a threat?

I've long since got over all of your bad behavior and sick attacks that have been thrown at me since the beginning of my postings, isn't it about time you all did too?

I will say it right hear right now on this forum I have no intentions of ever hurting anyone physically or shooting at or near a person, or anyone at all for that matter. I have no record of violence in my portfolio. Verbal vague threats, like everyone else on here, but no action to speak of. If someone swings at me with words I defend myself and swing back with words, (And sometimes Humor) and that is all.


Joe Rib Said:

"As for Wyatt, I doubt he could gather five friends, outside of his brain pan."

Wyatt Says:


If I wanted to do something to any of you (which I do not) it would have happened long ago during the drawn out posturing with you and all of your lickspittles.

If I was that much of a threat I would have been thrown off of here a long, long time ago.

Some of your good old buddies on this forum are part of my little Group.

I will know where you're menagerie is anyway you look at it and I can assure you I won't be there.

Paranoia is the final stage of insanity.

Who's the loony?

As for WIZ,

I thought mighty highly of you WIZ until I read those comments you sent Joe about me. I don't know anymore.

You can rest assured I will not be attending the little party on the shores of the Mountain Retreat La Canada De Joe.

I wouldn't want all of you to piss your pants and fall into the river drowning in your own urine if I drove up and said:

"Boo"!

[azdave35]

your no threat to me wyatt

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wyatt,

I doubt anyone here is afraid of you, except perhaps for Wiz. He was the only one who thought you might be a problem from outside the camp. I knew you would become a problem if allowed inside the camp. That won't happen, as I would not want to see you hurt by anyone who might take offense to your madness.

There is no need for you to build yourself up any larger than you already imagine yourself to to be. On the other hand, I would really like to see those "Kino Glasses".

There are more than a few people here who have been trying to throw a monkey-wrench into this gathering. Some have been working behind the curtain, sending me private messages. Yes Wiz, you are not the only one.
Others, like yourselves, are working out in the open. None of it will work, but you will all get a star for persistence.

Usually, in something like this, if half the people who say they will show up, actually do, that would be normal. If half of those who have said they will attend do, we will have a great time. The rest of you will just have to wonder what happened.

I have put seven people together in the Superstitions for five days. They came from both sides of the country. All were interested in the treasures of the Superstitions. Can you imagine the conversations around our campfires? I can't imagine anything better, except for this campout.

Wiz,

You overlooked where I misspelled civil with an "a". I am depending on you to proofread my stuff better than that. Good help is getting really hard to find these days. I should have stayed in High School.

Joe Ribaudo

[Wyatt Westwood]

I hope all of you have a good time Camping while I'm out finding the Lost Dutchman!

Some Talk and some Walk.

I'm a walker.

Wyatt

PSS: Kino Glasses on sale now for $50 while they last! Don't be caught reading Pictographs with out them! Decode those nasty old worn down carvings and be the talk of your town! Come one, come all! Hurry on down to the Superstition Mountain Museum and buy your pair of Kino Glasses Now! Great conversation piece for parties and Lazy Boy Campsites! See what your neighbors underwear color is! Surprise your Mother!

(Colored Underwear Sold Seperately)

[azdave35]

wyatt..you havent found anything out there but heartache and mysery in those mountains...let alone the LDM

[bill711]

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You WWW for your very modest, largesse, and bigness not to hold grudges! NOW Do I have permission to sell chances on WHOSE going to confess that he,s your friend Wyat?? I need to make a few bucks and this seems like a very safe investment... bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I would say anyone who bets against you would be betting a dead hand.

That was very funny.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Wiz]

Unbelievable.

I speak plain, simple english, and he hears something completely different. A monkey wrench! If my word of caution causes a monkey wrench to be thrown into this trip, you shouldn't be out camping in the first place. And if you read everything as foolishly as you have read my messages, the LDM is safe.

And you, Wyatt: You have come on very strong and obnoxious on this site, and in the past haven't really shown much evidence of complete sanity. You've been extremely hostile, sometimes ranting. This has been followed by posts of near-lucidity. All I know about you is what I've read here, but I suspect you may be bipolar. This is not a bad word, and I'm not trying to insult you. But you may need help.
Now, suddenly, you want to come to these guys' camping trip with four of your friends. This, after an exchange of sharp words with other members. Sorry, but the first thing that occurred to me was that you were considering making trouble for them. If that's not true, I apologize. But I felt my admonition was warranted. If your opinion of me has suffered as a result, I'll have to live with that.

I hope all the rest of you have a good camping trip, but I still think it's a little hot to really enjoy it.

[bill711]

WELL BOY,S; If wyat and his friends are not there? WHAT are you going to do for TOLIT PAPER???? bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

You know I have trouble with the large words you use. If you keep them around three or four letters, I should have no problems.

"Now, suddenly", You want to warn me that someone might cause trouble." This, after" calling me names, posting insulting messages while playing the straight man to Peter's own games for years. "Sorry, but the first thing that occurred to me was that you were considering" trying to scare me away from having the campout. "If that's not true, I apologize. But I felt my admonition was warranted."

You claim that is not your intention, but you have now mentioned, two or three times, it is too hot to enjoy such an event. This, despite the fact that I have mentioned three or four times that we are going to wait for cooler weather.

You see Wiz, that is exactly the problem. When you speak out of both sides of your mouth and only listen with one ear, or read with one eye closed, people end up with a different opinion of what you are really saying and you end up with a skewed view of what you are reading.

If you did not have such a desperate agenda here, you would know that the campout will be after the summer heat. Now, other than a very busy schedule, you have only me as a reason for not attending, assuming you have not taken the Wyatt "factor" as seriiously as you have conveyed it to me and now the members.

Once again, I extend a personal invition for you and Peter to join us. It will be a large camp, and neither of you will be compelled to share my company.

This is something I have been dreaming about for years. Getting a large number of Dutch Hunters together in one place and under a canopy of friendship. No one needs to say more than they want to. You will be able to meet people that you have only known as "friends" on the site.
Other than proximity to me, what is the down side for such an event?

While it may cement your hatred of me, it might also be a chance to make new friends that will last a lifetime. Once you have shared a campfire with someone, the relationship changes forever. Not always for the good, but it does change.

"And if you read everything as foolishly as you have read my messages, the LDM is safe."

Wiz, I have said this many times on this site. I have never moved one foot in the Superstitions looking for the LDM. I have studied the history and come to some conclusions, but I have never walked a single step looking for Waltz's mine/cache. Those who know me, and have been to my home, seen the direction of my search, know this to be true.

While I might put others on the trail to the LDM, no one will ever put me in that saddle.

We have said some hard things to and about each other on this site. You may be right about me, and it's possible I am wrong about you and Peter.
The only way to know for sure, is to shake hands and look each other in the eyes. I am man enough to take that chance and say I was right or wrong, publicly.

Everyone in that camp will be friends, if only for the time we are there.

Joe

[Grayhair]

Well spoken, Joe.

[Wiz]

Yes, well spoken. Insincere words spoken well have a hollow ring, though.

Wiz,

You know I have trouble with the large words you use. If you keep them around three or four letters, I should have no problems.

Doubtful.

"Now, suddenly", You want to warn me that someone might cause trouble."

You appeared to be the organizer. My mistake. I'll send my messages to one of the others who has better sense than to distain a sincere gesture.

This, after" calling me names, posting insulting messages while playing the straight man to Peter's own games for years.

Examples of this latter accusation would include...?

"Sorry, but the first thing that occurred to me was that you were considering" trying to scare me away from having the campout. "If that's not true, I apologize. But I felt my admonition was warranted."

No, you saw it as an opportunity to flame me again. I notice you used my quoted words above - they were not your own words. Your sincerity is overwhelming.

You claim that is not your intention,

I claim nothing. I speak the facts. What you do with them is your own business.
You see, there are two ways to deal with a possible threat: ignore it, and either everything will be fine or you could get a nasty surprise for which you will be unprepared; or prepare for the extreme case, and either everything will be fine, or you'll be ready for the nasty surprise. I made my observation. That is all I have to offer this camping trip. You twisted it around to attempt to ridicule me. Private messages I've received would indicate you've failed.
You're not the big fish in this pond that you think you are, Joe.

but you have now mentioned, two or three times, it is too hot to enjoy such an event. This, despite the fact that I have mentioned three or four times that we are going to wait for cooler weather.

I confess that, as I never had any intention of attending, I have not read all the posts concerning the trip. My impression was that you were camping soon. Yet another mistake of mine. I seem to have made a whole series of them, beginning with thinking I could send you a message, without rancor, and have it be understood.

You see Wiz, that is exactly the problem. When you speak out of both sides of your mouth and only listen with one ear, or read with one eye closed, people end up with a different opinion of what you are really saying and you end up with a skewed view of what you are reading.

???

If you did not have such a desperate agenda here,

"Desperate agenda"? Your delusions are showing, Joe. For some reason, you seem to think I care if you camp out or not. Believe me, I don't.

you would know that the campout will be after the summer heat. Now, other than a very busy schedule, you have only me as a reason for not attending, assuming you have not taken the Wyatt "factor" as seriiously as you have conveyed it to me and now the members.

Is that so?
You also have a completely unrealistic picture of how seriously I take Wyatt. You may recall that I said most of the Dutch hunters I know don't go armed. That may or may not apply to the folks going camping. I don't believe I ever suggested that I was unarmed.

Anyone want to weigh in on this?

Once again, I extend a personal invition for you and Peter to join us. It will be a large camp, and neither of you will be compelled to share my company.

I believe I'll pass. One skunk can ruin an otherwise nice camping spot, and since you'll be there, well, there goes the neighborhood.

This is something I have been dreaming about for years. Getting a large number of Dutch Hunters together in one place and under a canopy of friendship. No one needs to say more than they want to. You will be able to meet people that you have only known as "friends" on the site.
Other than proximity to me, what is the down side for such an event?

None. Proximity to you is enough.

While it may cement your hatred of me,

I hate no one. Hate is self-destructive. I feel about you as I would about a case of athlete's foot.

it might also be a chance to make new friends that will last a lifetime. Once you have shared a campfire with someone, the relationship changes forever. Not always for the good, but it does change.

The mountains are certainly a good place for that. I've made some of my best friends in the Superstitions.

"And if you read everything as foolishly as you have read my messages, the LDM is safe."

Wiz, I have said this many times on this site. I have never moved one foot in the Superstitions looking for the LDM. I have studied the history and come to some conclusions, but I have never walked a single step looking for Waltz's mine/cache. Those who know me, and have been to my home, seen the direction of my search, know this to be true.

While I might put others on the trail to the LDM, no one will ever put me in that saddle.

That was what's known as a rhetorical statement. You're right, you should have stayed in school. (And you're dreaming if you think you'll ever point anyone toward the LDM).

We have said some hard things to and about each other on this site. You may be right about me, and it's possible I am wrong about you and Peter.
The only way to know for sure, is to shake hands and look each other in the eyes. I am man enough to take that chance and say I was right or wrong, publicly.

Again, doubtful.
This entire post is typical of your pattern, Joe. You like to play "good Joe/bad Joe". You remind me of Gollum. This has all the earmarks of one of your attempts to set me up for some other idiotic accusation. Sorry, not interested.

Everyone in that camp will be friends, if only for the time we are there.
Joe

Good! The world needs more friendship. You, however, will have to make your way through life without mine.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

Who are you kidding? You read each and every one of my posts from start to finish. Only a fool could not read that in your replies.

I thought if I used your own words, you would see and, perhaps, understand the true motivations behind your posts.

No one asked you to send me private messages. You are the one who felt compelled to open a personal dialog with me. It would appear that my response was not what you were looking for, as evidenced by your second private message.

Even though I only addressed the obvious in my posts to you, I also offered to put that behind us. You have made the most you could of that offer, it appears.

"I made my observation. That is all I have to offer this camping trip. You twisted it around to attempt to ridicule me. Private messages I've received would indicate you've failed."

I twisted nothing. It is you who have ridiculed yourself. I did not mention your name in my post. You took it upon yourself to insert your name into the discussiion.

"Desperate agenda"? Your delusions are showing, Joe. For some reason, you seem to think I care if you camp out or not. Believe me, I don't.

For a man who doesn't care, you have written a lot of words here, and sent two private messages to me as well. Those who are actually interested have not written nearly as much. The more you write, the more you reveal of yourself.

"I don't believe I ever suggested that I was unarmed."

How soon you forget my paranoia. Since I have never "suggested" that you might go around armed or "unarmed", what am I to make of this strange statement?

"Good! The world needs more friendship. You, however, will have to make your way through life without mine."

I will manage.

Despite the "private messages" you say you are receiving, it's hard to conceive of anyone reading your posts and not being able to see the real Wiz. If these gentlemen decide to speak up, I will giive their words due consideration. If they are Wyatt and his band of four, I will also consider what they have to say.

"You're not the big fish in this pond that you think you are, Joe."

You could be correct, except I have no illusions as to who I am, or how important I am in the LDM Forum. Being the "Wizard of Arizona", it may be time for the little man behind the curtain to come out into the real world, or does "Wiz" really stand for what Ron hinted at?

OK Wiz, that's tit for tat. It's obvious you are dying to make this campout, but can't figure out how to do it without loosing face. Like Wyatt, you can't believe it can take place without you. I agree. Pack your gear, we will make room for you upwind, of course, from my location.

Nuff said?

Joe Ribaudo

[TGH]

Tricksy it is, precious.......tricksy and false.......

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

That should be "Tricksy, sneaksy and false".

It's good to see that you and Wiz are on the same page here. Reverting back to the highlights of your education is never a bad thing....well, almost never.

The real question here, is: Does it make your little "brainses feel all swirly and bad"?

What's next, quotes from "Harry Potter"?

Children at play. It's a beautiful thing to see.

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Don't you two think it's time to "put away" J. R. Tolken?

Joe Ribaudo