Three in one

[Thomas Glover]

After a day (which is after a day after a day after weeks …) of cleaning out my parent’s home of over 50 years of accumulated items, treasures, memories, debris, dirt and whatever the following provides a bit of off task relaxation. What I say on this topic is all I can/will/should contribute, but it posses an interesting question. In the written record there are three distinct lost mines attributed Jacob Waltz. Each has distinctions that differentiate it from the others. These are not the result of telling and re-telling the tale; they are distinct mines. Thoughts?

Thomas

[Joe Ribaudo]

Thomas,

There is only one (good) source for Jacob Waltz's mine in the Superstitions. That would be the team of Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch. I know that statement will shock a lot of people here.

Two people questioned them, and they both told the same story. Both claimed the story came directly from the mouth of Jacob Waltz. The truth fairly shouts here.

Judging the truth of what they, or Bark/Ely said, can best be done by what they did after Waltz died. Their actions back up the story. Name one other person that put as much on the "LDM" line as Julia did. Other than Julia, Rhiney and Waltz, I don't believe anyone ever told the entire truth.

If you start counting the possible Waltz "lost mines", Three may fall a little short, as a lot of false trails have been laid down.

My "thoughts" are: There is one (1) LDM, which may be be no mine at all.
It will be interesting to see what others think.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Wiz]

Hello Dr. Glover,

You didn't specify LDM, but rather "lost mines attributed Jacob Waltz". I'm not near my references so I can't check, but would one of them be in the Bradshaws? My memory is undoubtedly faulty, but I think he had the General Grant mine, whose location is now unknown.
Then, if I'm recalling correctly, he also had a mine in California that was washed away by flood waters.

Or, were you referring to three distinct mines in the Superstitions?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,

Waltz never had a (documented) claim in California. He worked for a placer miner named Reuben Blackey in Follow's Camp, on the East fork of the San Gabriel River. I have panned the river in that camp's location.
Don't recall if I used my dredge or not.

There are only three known (documented) claims involving Jacob Waltz.

The are: The Gross Lode, the Big Rebel and the General Grant. These, as a guess, would be the "three distinct lost mines" of Jacob Waltz that Dr. Glover is referring to. I believe none of these claims were "surveyed" so exact locations are probably lost to history.

While they may be considered "lost", I doubt there are many prospectors looking for them. Historically, they would be interesting to find, but probably hard to verify.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Thomas,

I believe I referenced these three claims in a previous post. It was in the vein, pun intended, of questioning if Waltz could have gathered his gold from these claims.

I believe all three were "fresh" claims. It's quite possible that the exposed ore was very rich. It's not that unusual for a rich outcropping to "thin out/pinch out" as it is followed into the earth.

Taking the high-grade ore from the surface and selling the low-grade hole was a common practice, as many of the prospectors did not want to do the "hardrock" mining.

Could the LDM have only been an accuulation from these three claims?
Any geologist would tell you, it's a pretty good bet.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Roger]

Leland Lovelace wrote the book, "Lost Mines & Hidden Treasures", and in it describes Waltz's mines. On pages 134 - 135 she said that Jake claimed to have three mines:

1. The Quartz Mine
2. Placer Mine nearby the Quartz Mine
3. Number Two Mine - near Goldfield.

Her research indicted that Jake had four types of gold that had been reported by people doing business with him or seeing/obtaining it as follows:

1. Gold in pale yellow quartz - this was gold paid to Charlie Rodig, a shoemaker.
2. Gold in white quartz - Jake gave this gold to Julie Thomas to pay her debts and is the same as Brownie Holmes had and is in the infamous matchbox.
3. Wire gold in black quartz.
4. Nugget gold in pink quartz.

Jake claimed to have never returned to the Quartz Mine afer 1877, fourteen years before he died due to the roughness of the country it was in.

MY COMMENTS:

The Quartz Mine is obviously the LDM. The nearby Placer Mine may well be the one near Iron Mountain related to Ron Feldman's and the HEAT's winter dig. The Number Two mine was the quartz in the middle of the wagon road South of the Bulldog formation - it probably became the Mammonth mine later.

From what I have read and researched, I would have to agree With Leland that Jake had three mines in the Supers.

Roger.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

Bessie got a lot of her information from Dobie, and Storm stole a lot of his material from her.

I don't believe your answer applies to Dr. Glover's original statement.

"In the written record there are three distinct lost mines attributed Jacob Waltz. Each has distinctions that differentiate it from the others. These are not the result of telling and re-telling the tale; they are distinct mines." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)

Bessie's stories are not a "record" but seem to fall under the "telling and re-telling the tale" category.

It may be that you are correct and I am misreading the meaning of "written record". I take it to mean a historical document, not a "story".

Thomas?

Respectfully,

Joe

[TGH]

Roger

Well done. However the placer was very close to the LDM proper....which rules out Iron Mtn and its environs.

P

[Ron]

TGH,

Oh, does it now?

Ron

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ron,

Peter guesses it is not so.

That's just a guess on my part.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Roger,

John D. Mitchell put it at Iron Mt. As one of the greatest treasure hunters in the West, he adds some credence to your statement. I believe the "claim" that Jacob had workings near Goldfield is true. All of it is impossible to prove, but it doesn't have to be proven to believe in it.

Jesse

[sluicebox]

I just did a virtual hike on my computer ( in 3-d mode to account for elevation changes), and the trip from Hidden Spring at Cottonwood Canyon, to Iron Mt. is about 28 to 29 miles. This is if you go by way of the Apache Trail, over to Tortilla trailhead, then via the JF to Rodger"s Canyon trail. Given the terrain, does anyone think an old guy with pack mules could make that trip in one day? Regards, Sluicebox

[Ron]

It's worse than that. Did the old man take a vehicle from Phoenix?28 miles is a drop in the bucket when one considers how far he was from Phoenix. Also why would he take the route that Sluicebox suggests? No matter where the Dutchman went in from it was one long way , which certainly would of taken more than one day. For these reasons , I feel he did not go to the mine very many times. Can you imagine what a chore it would of been for the Dutchman to of come from Phoenix and go to the top of Peters Mesa, if the mine was there?
However, wherever he went, it would of had to of been where the gold could of been. Maybe besides checking a map for distance, you should check a geological map for the possible existance for mineral.

[sluicebox]

Ron, I'm assuming that if the distance is farther than can be traveled in one day from Hidden Spring, then it could be ruled out whether there is gold in that location or not. My post was a question, not a statement. I don't know how far an old guy and mules could travel in that terrain. The distance is about the same if you go up Boulder Canyon to Perer's Trail etc. I came up with a day or less from Hidden Spring based on several clues, but primarily the directions given to both Holmes and Julia. The Holmes Manuscript quotes Waltz as asying "We left the mine one morning and started for Phoenix by way of Fort McDowell and that evening we camped at Agua Escondido." According to the directions given to both Holmes and Julia, he left from Hidden Spring (Agua Escondido) on his way into the mine as well. I just thought that someone who has actually taken a pack mule through that terrain might know if 28 miles or so is possible in one day. Perhaps the only way to answer the question definatively, is to pack a mule, start at Hidden Spring and see where you are when the sun sets.

Regards, Sluicebox

[Joe Ribaudo]

Sluicebox,

If you are going to use the Holmes Manuscript in your investigation, you may want to consider other statements he attributes to Waltz.

"After I got there (Picket Post) I did'nt want to stay so I started back to the Vulture by the way of Fort McDowell over the Military traill. This trail as you know is used by the soldiers at McDowell."
"First night out from Picket Post,...I guess I was about fifteen miles from there...I made camp."

The next morning Waltz was attacked by Apaches and ended up afoot. About one and a half days later he finds the Mexican camp while they are away working what was to become the LDM.

If this story is true, we can assume Waltz camped somewhere close to Clover Spring, Dogie Spring, Trap canyon Spring, Bluff Spring, Peralta Spring, Carney Spring or farther south around Burns Ranch.

Remember that he was trying to get to the Vulture mine by going through Fort McDowell. Now he may have taken a trail that led throough the Superstition Mountains, but that seems like a dangerous path to take.

When Waltz said he was going to take the "Military Trail", did he mean through the Superstitions or did he mean the trail to McDowell from the west side of the range?

If you make an arc at fifteen miles from Picket Post or the old townsite of Pinal and use the northernmost spring I mentioned and Burns Ranch as the southernmost point, you will find it takes in some interesting country.

Fron the center of that arc draw a straight line to Fort McDowell. As I have mentioned before, there is an old trail that starts at Government Well goes up to Willow Spring Well and then heads in a northwesterly direction through the Goldfield Mountains and crosses the Salt River around two miles southeast of Stewart Mountain. It is a straight line from that point, across the desert to Fort McDowell.

Iron Mountain seems a little out of the loop here. Holmes initally spent a lot of time in the Indian Spring/Kane Spring area, finally settling in on La Barge Canyon.

From Brownie's first search without his dad:

"After seven days of travel accross the Verde and the Salt River, up through mountains passes and canyons and over hills we finally found ourselves camped at Indian Springs."
With all the "inside" information he had, did they arrive at that point by accident? Notice the time it took these two young lads (on horseback) to make that trip.

Now the real question here, is: Where is that pesky "Military Trail"? No, not that one, the one that the soldiers would use to go from Picket Post to Fort McDowell? Set your boots on that trail, and you will be walking towards the LDM.

Respectfully,

Joe

[sluicebox]

Roger,

I've re-read your post several times, but I am still having a hard time squaring 4 types of gold with only three lost mines. Were you indicating that the Number Two Mine was a "known" location and that the remaining different types of gold were from two other mines? If so, would these be the placer mine and one other "unknown". If the location of the NumberTwo was not known for sure, doesn't the 4 different types of gold indicate 4 mines rather than 3?

Joe,

I've considered the 15 miles from Picket Post clue. You have pointed out some things I didn't consider, like he was probably camped at a spring or source of water. That at least norrows down possible starting points. The other problem I had with those directions, is the length of time he was hiking the 2nd day. Was it 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 of a day? Basically, all he says is that he found the Mexican camp on the second day, and woke up at sundown after falling asleep. He does indicate that he was in very rough country on the first day after getting off the trail. Does this indicate that he took a trail "through" the mountains rather than around? My first inclination was to assume the easier route around rather than through, but I eventually tried routes that included Hewitt canyon. If he was attacked in that area, it wouldn't rule out Iron Mountain as a possibility if he headed East or Notrh East to get away from the Apache. I keep putting Iron Mountain in and then out of my picture. If using the Holmes clues, I'd have to say that the 4 peaks do not line up as one from Iron Mountain, as it is too far East. I'm not working today, so I think I'll get my maps out and follow your scenario. Thanks.

Regards Sluicebox

[Roger]

The four types of gold is what Leland Lovelace wrote in her book. I am with your on this point - I would have thought there should have been only 3 types of gold ore and/or placer - not four.

Regarding Waltz's travel into the Superstitions - I'm afraid that Dutch Hunters fall into one of two camps - the "Petrasch" camp and the "Holmes" camp regarding important aspects of the LDM mine and where it is located. I am of the Petrasch camp primarily due to the Jim Bark Notes and him having access to Julia and Rhinehart shortly after Jake's death and Rhiney's open candor on telling Jake's story. One can argue that Bark did not include all he knew in his manuscript and may have shifted some facts, but there are some other collobrations that support key aspects of the LDM he presents. There are two main reasons I discount Brownie's written story of where the LDM is located:

1. Volume 2/Number 3 of the Superstition Mtn Historical Journal of July, 1982, contains an article by Milton Rose titled "The Last Days of Jacob Waltz". In it he states that "The men present when Jacob Waltz died were David Schoulters, Charles Roberts, and Simon P. Carr. Schoulters and Carr spoke some German. They acknowledged that fact to the Phoenix Justice of Peace M.P. Griffin on October 27, 1891, after Julia Thomas appeared before him and swore that the three men had stollen a bag contining $500.00 in gold from Wlatz's locker from under his bed". Julia later said she had found the bag of gold behind her front gate.

The main thing to note that nothing is said about Dick Holmes being at Jake's deathbed and hearing the long drawn out story in Holmes manuscript. Net-net: I think Dick Holmes lied about being there and fabricated the whole story about Jake's deathbed confession about what the mine location and area was like.

2. In Brownie Holmes manuscript in the section titled "The True Story of The Lost Dutchman of the Superstitions as Told to My Father, Dick Holmes, By Jacob Wolz (his spelling) on His Death Bead", Brownie tells the tale of Jake running from Apaches, escaping, and then meeting 3 Mexicans working a rich mine they show him. He then kills the 3 and covers the mine with six feet of timber over one winter.

This whole story does not fit with any other LDM research that I trust and I think it is totally bogus in my opinon.

One other factoid that Milton Rose documented in his "Rainbow's End" manuscript that might be of interest. On page 51 he wrote:

"On the matter of how many trips Wlatz made to the mine and how long he stayed and worked, neither Charles Roberts or David Schulters could shed any light on this. Their guess was only three, at most four, times". This seems to jive with what a number of people have posted.

I know some Forum Members think Milton Rose was a kook, but keep in mind that he had access with many of the original LDM figures and was a compentary of that time. He gathered a lot of info and talked to a lot of people. He did think he had found the LDM up on Four Peaks, but don't discount all he has to say for that reason only.

Happy Hunging!

Roger

[TGH]

GoodBye

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

Peter is, of course, correct. Rose had a great deal of good information. He also threw a lot of chum (trash fish) in the water.

You are right on, as far as I am concerned, about the Holmes'. With all of these stories, the trick is decidiing where to draw the line between the truth, obfuscation and outright lies. Once an author starts "bending" the truth, where do you start trusting him again?

Here is where Peter goes wrong:

"Interesting that both accounts (and several others) all point to the same country."

That statement is throwing much to wide of a loop to catch any of the truth. That suits Peter's theory of where the LDM is, but ignores the original Petrasch story. In truth, he has always been in the "Holmes Camp", if you are comparing it to the Julia and Rhiney camp.

I believe people are being led astray by the failure of others. As long as that continues, the LDM will remain "lost".

All of the above is opinion, so I could, of course, be wrong.

Respectfully,

Joe

[redison]

Roger,

In response to:

“I think Dick Holmes lied about being there and fabricated the whole story about Jake's deathbed confession about what the mine location and area was like.”

I once believed exactly as you do, but in view of recent conversations with well known current generation searchers whose names I will not mention and inflame Joe, I no longer dismiss the idea that Dick Holmes was present at Waltz’s deathbed. Holmes did in fact end up with the 48 pounds of ore from the candle box under Waltz’s bed. Jim Bark was a member of the community at the time and knew this and makes a passing remark about it in his notes without going into enough detail to make himself accountable for slanderous remarks.

In my opinion, the question is not whether or not Holmes was there, but rather a question of what Waltz said and whether or not he knew he was talking to Dick Holmes.

The Holmes Manuscript is full of so many holes and contradictions that any serious researcher would have to conclude that it is for the most part, a poorly fabricated attempt to justify Holmes’ ownership of the 48 lbs of ore left behind by Waltz. Note that I said “for the most part” I do not dismiss the entire manuscript. There are things in that manuscript that are factual and cannot be traced to any other source. I would love to expand on this, but I am not at liberty to do so at this time.

Did Dick Holmes get this factual information from Waltz on his deathbed, or from another source long after Waltz’s death and meld it into the story he passed on to Brownie? Getting back to the original question. Did Waltz attempt to give Dick Holmes directions to his mine and if so did he know he was talking to Holmes?

It has been pointed out to me by someone far deeper into this puzzle than I could ever live to be, (again I won’t mention and names and inflame Joe) that Holmes’ own words (as presented) in the manuscript show that Waltz was not aware of who he was talking to if he did in fact attempt to give directions to his mine to someone on his deathbed.

Consider the following: It is generally accepted that Waltz knew 3 routes into and out of the mountains to/from his mine. One route was to enter from the South either from the Bark Ranch or the Milk Ranch. The second route was from the West entering at Firstwater, and the third was from the North somewhere up around the area of Tortilla Ranch or Tortilla Flat. Waltz discussed all three of these routes with Julia and Rhiney, resulting in their total confusion over which landmarks applied to which routes and which landmarks applied to the area right at the site of the mine.

The problem Waltz faced in trying to direct Julia and Rhiney to the mine is that he had no starting point that they were familiar with to direct them from that was anywhere near one routes into the mountains. He gave them 3 different routes in hope that they could find one of them. (remember that it was Waltz’ original intention to take Julia and Rhiney to the caches and show them where the mine was. It was only AFTER he decided that he would never recover enough to make the trip that he began trying to give them verbal directions to his mine, by this time his physical and mental condition was already failing fast)

Going back to the Holmes Manuscript: Dick Holmes claimed to have followed Waltz to his North entry point into the mountains before learning that Waltz was wise to the fact that he was being followed. According to Holmes, Waltz later confronted him about this and warned him not to do it again.

The KICKER is: If Waltz knew he was talking to Dick Holmes on his deathbed and attempted to direct him to the mine, why did he not take advantage of the fact that he and Holmes had a common “known point” which was one of the entry points Waltz used to enter the mountains. Why didn’t Waltz direct Holmes to the mine from this known point from the North? Why would Waltz tell Holmes to take First water to Second water and then the old Government Trail to San Carlos which is the Western entry point Waltz used?

Some of the discrepancies in the Holmes Manuscript may be due to the fact that it is Brownie’s interpretation of Dick Holmes story. Other discrepancies could be due to the actual manuscript being a third partie’s interpretation of Brownie’s story. Brownie denied being the author of the manuscript many times and claimed it was written by a newspaper man by the name of Kennison (sp) that had interviewed him. Anyone that has read the manuscript would have a hard time believing that it was written by a man that wrote for a living, so we are left to conclude that these probably are Brownie’s words and that there are no third party interpretation errors.

I believe Waltz did talk to Holmes on his deathbed, and that he probably did attempt to give him directions to his mine. (from the West) He also probably told him he could have the gold under his bed. But I also believe that Waltz (in his altered state of mind) thought he was talking to Rhiney.

There are those who claim that Waltz called Holmes by name several times during the deathbed conversation. It just can’t be true! If Waltz knew he was talking to Dick Holmes, he would have directed him to the mine from the point Holmes had followed him to at the North end of the mountains.

When this argument was presented to me it contained other thoughts and supporting facts that I am bound not to reveal. Nothing has been revealed here that cannot be derived from the Holmes Manuscript and other published information. I present it here, not in defense of the Holmes Manuscript or Holmes’ right to the 48 pounds of ore he ultimately ended up with. It is presented only as food for thought that Holmes was present when Waltz died and may have acquired bits and pieces of valid information about the location of the mine.

In my opinion. you would be doing a great disservice to yourself to totally dismiss the Holmes Manuscript.

redison

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roger,

There are a few things to consider in redison's "manuscript".

While it is generally accepted that Dick Holmes ended up with Waltz's gold, it is not a "fact", it is a story that has been told a number of times.
Jim Bark should not be used as a "source" because he did not mention the name of the person who "lifted" the gold.

"The Holmes Manuscript is full of so many holes and contradictions that any serious researcher would have to conclude that it is for the most part, a poorly fabricated attempt to justify Holmes’ ownership of the 48 lbs of ore left behind by Waltz. Note that I said “for the most part” I do not dismiss the entire manuscript. There are things in that manuscript that are factual and cannot be traced to any other source. I would love to expand on this, but I am not at liberty to do so at this time."

I have said the same thing, many times. I also believe he lied to Brownie and could never tell him the truth. Would you tell your son you are a thief and lier? Dick Holmes got most of his information about Waltz's mine in the same manner as he got it before Waltz's death. That would be by following someone, and listening to tall tales.

There are some people out there today, who are still listening to tall tales to get their "facts", but each and every one of them are "bound" not to tell. When you are shovelling horse shit it's not polite to talk about where it came from.

"The problem Waltz faced in trying to direct Julia and Rhiney to the mine is that he had no starting point that they were familiar with to direct them from that was anywhere near one routes into the mountains. He gave them 3 different routes in hope that they could find one of them. (remember that it was Waltz’ original intention to take Julia and Rhiney to the caches and show them where the mine was. It was only AFTER he decided that he would never recover enough to make the trip that he began trying to give them verbal directions to his mine, by this time his physical and mental condition was already failing fast)"

What is redison's source for Waltz's "failing" mental condition? What is the source of him giving them "3 different routes" to the mine? What is the source for saying he did not give them a place to start from? (That sounds like something I have read recently) I would say where I read it, but "I am not at liberty to do so at this time". In addition to that, it might "inflame" redison.

I would continue, but I am just toooo upset and "inflamed". That's what I get for guessing at redison's source.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Roger]

Again, some quotes from Milton Rose's article, "The Last Days of Jacob Waltz" (pages 5-6), in the Superstition Mountain Journal Volume 2/Number 3:

"I talked to the three men (David Schoulters, Charles Roberts, and Simon P. Carr - my add) and they told me that they had attended Jake fro several days before he died. That they had heard every word that he said bout himself and the mine. That they had helped him draw the map for Julia and Rhinehardt."

"Now you know who thet other three men were, besides Rhiney and Julia, at the bedside of Waltz when he died."

I still don't think Dick Holmes was at Jake's deathbed and that he fabricated his story.

In his 2nd article in that same journal issue, "The Story of the First and Second Hunts for the Mine of Jacob Waltz" (pages 6-7), Milton Rose also writes:

"They all said that Waltz had covered the mine over with brush to hide it."

If they head this from Jake, where on earth did Dick Holmes get the detailed tale of Jake covering the mine shaft six feet deep with timber? In the middle of a wilderness full of Indians, why would Jake spend that amount of time to cover the mine when it was in a location that was hard to find even if you knew where it was. Just can't accept this one.

In "Rainbow's End", Milton Rose writes on pages 42-43:

"Roberts drew me a map of the one they had helped Waltz draw. It begain with the wagon road from Mesa that ran just south of the end of the Goldfield Mountains and the Bull Dog's head on it. From there the road ran onto Grapevine Spring and a stone cabin. The map indicated two blazed cacti and an outcrop in the middle of the road at one point. From Grapevine Spring the road ran to Conttonwood Spring. Thence on a trail into the mountains and passed a "needle". Thence to the mine on a trail that branched from the main trail to the left and onto the side of a hill to the right. The mine entrance being on the west side of the hill and the setting sun would shine into it."

This is the exact trail that Julia and Rhiney tried to follow on their first trip into the Supers.

I would agree that there is some good content in Brownie Holmes manuscript that should be used by devoted Dutch Hunters. However, there are also glimpses of Dick Holmes twisting the truth with either pure fabrication or a lack of knowledge of the real facts. Here is a case in point:

On page 13 of Brownie's manuscript, Dick quotes Jacob Waltz telling him that he shot his nephew between the eyes at Auga Escondido and burying his body under a shelving rock. Dick later dug up these bones and showed them to Brownie on one of their LDM trips.

Again in "Rainbow's End", Rose wrote on page 46 that Charles Roberts heard from Waltz on his deathbed:

"Waltz told about killing the old Apache at Hidden Springs (Aqua Esondido). He ran onto the Apache as he was coming out with some sacks of gold. It was not until he examined the man that he saw the Peace Medal. Fearing trouble he buried the Indian and erased all evidence that he had camped there. He was sure he had seen the old man at Fort McDowell. Dick Holmes and his son Brownie found and dug up the Indian's skeleton at Aqua Escondido as per a story I have written by Holmes".

Now how would Dick have gotten Jake's nephew mixed up with an Apache Indian in this incident.

This is what makes LDM research a very interesting hobby. The more you dig, the more inconsistencies that surface, and the more you are forced to decide what is chaff and what is wheat. Your best hope is that you don't end up with a world class collection of chaff!!!

The LDM Forum exchanges makes this even a more interesting hobby. Keep the sharing going.

Roger

[Jesse J. Feldman]

REDISON,

I believe Dick Holmes was a long time friend to Jacob. I believe Dick H. was a neutral character that leaned to the Union, Anglo, opportunists. After all he was born in the mid 60s. So you know what kind of world he lived in. The Union won over many factions and was here to build the country. Dick never saw the country in chaos. That was long history past by 1891 but still had a resounding effect on relationships with government, ranchers, miners, road builders, bankers, etc. Julia Thomas was simply not in this game of controllers. Therefore not the one entitled to the bullion. I believe Dick thought it was his business to stay out of the Superstitions. It was not his business, if you catch my drift. Although, I belive he was liked by everyone. Maybe because he helped build the country. So, whether Dick was at Jacobs death bed or not makes little difference. I think he was the first in line to aquire any value Jacob had based on the above. This may be a little confusing but I have little time to write.

Jesse

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Correction.
Ore not bullion. My mind is in the mountains, not under Jacobs bed.

Jesse

[Joe Ribaudo]

Jesse,

In 47 years of reading everything I could get, and talking to a number of old timers in the LDM game, I have never, ever, heard that Jacob Waltz and Dick Holmes were "long time" friends.

As for Holmes being "first in line to aquire any value Jacob had based on the above", following your logic, any common thief (white of course) who managed to walk in the door before Holmes, would have had the right to take the gold. That assumes that said thief was "liked by everyone".

Let's assume that it is true that Holmes did follow Waltz to find out where he got his gold. What would have happened if he followed him all the way to the mine? Would he have just come back later and worked the mine while Jacob was not there? At some point I would think he would know he would have a fight on his hands. What would he do, try to kill the old man?

If he did that, would he still be "entitled"?

Respectfully,

Joe