Three in one

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Ray Tucker
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Post by Ray Tucker »

TGH,

"You left off Tortilla Mtn. Some folks think the LDM is up there. They might be right....certainly is higher up and further away...."

How long do you think it took Brownie Holmes to beat feet up on top of Tortilla Mt. after that episode was over? Or do you believe that the same thing you are thinking never dawned on him? The mere fact that Brownie included that story in his manuscript indicates to me that he had checked out that area (higher up and further away....") and eliminated it as a posible location for the LDM long before the manuscript was ever written.

If he didn't find anything up there when the trail was still fresh, I doubt that anyone could find anything up there today. (That applies to the LDM anyway).

Zentull,

"There is too much evidence spread out that there was a number of areas worked over an extended period of time to believe the LDM would be easy to find. Finding the right hole is difficult, A possible Peralta mine working easy. "

I think you summed it up very nicely! Where ever one believes the LDM is located depends on which group of clues they choose to believe in and which ones they choose to dismiss. The overall problem is that ALL of the clues come second handed by way of people who searched for the LDM and never found it.

Ray
TGH
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
Last edited by TGH on Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
redison
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Post by redison »

P, Zentull, Ray,

You guys all make valid points. The most valid of all being that NO PLACE can be eliminated until the mine is found, and Nobody knows where it is until it is found. The clues are all so vague and generic that you can make a handfull of them work just about anywhere in the mountains.

"The LDM is where you find it"

redison
late49er
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Black Top and other things

Post by late49er »

LDM

Thanks for the additional information regarding the Loveless Collection. Hopefully I will have the opportunity one day to sit down and go through the material. Just curious did she ever talk about the Dutchman having different types of Gold ore. Probably never came up but I thought I would ask.

TGH

Agree with you that there was a lot of Mexican activity surrounding Black Top. Simply too much evidence to believe otherwise. Guess we will never know the whole story unless someone can produce a first hand account of Peralta Mining efforts in the Superstituions.

I do strongly believe that what was put into Black Top is far more significant than what was taken out. Still there. Wouldn`t be surprised that there are Peralta Mines in the area that were quite rich. Suspect they are epithermal or mesothermal in nature.

As far as LDM 1 goes I agree it is higher up and further away. As far as logic goes a deposit such as LDM1 is really illogical in a geological sense but so what. The largest Gold Deposit in the world still has geologists confused. That being the Gold Reefs of South Africa. That deposit was formed in an alluvial fan and was primarily the result of precipitation from fluids. The deposit is somehow related to organisms in the water that caused the gold to precipitate. Real Gold bugs sorta speak.

Also I suggest that trying to find LDM1 logically is well impossible. A lot of reasons for that but the most importent one is that one must see beyound the trail to get to where you are going. One must think in terms both of time and space. The trick in the trail has always been the Dutch hunter himself. One must look inside and be available for what is there. You will not see it if the search has not begun inside. Big Mountain. Then again maybe I am totally wrong. Who knows.

Agree totally on making such a discovery public. Given all the issues in those mountains one would have to think very carefully about what they say.

The bees have been there for a long time and perhaps will be there for a long time to come. None of them sting but being old they bring a certain amount of savy to the task at hand. Two of them are pretty good engineers. Rambling Wrecks sorta speak.

Regards,


Late49er
TGH
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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zentull
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Post by zentull »

All that is certain is that Waltz did meet/know a Peralta(s) and knew their story and the location of a mine. I dont believe we will ever know what Waltz said to Holmes and Roberts. I dont believe Brownie Holmes even had the straight story as it unfolded. That after giving directions and drawing maps to the caches and mine, Rhiney still was unable to find it, says a lot about the location. When 2 people take their own lives over such failures it says a lot about the truth of such matters. Many of us could get a general idea of the location if given 5 minutes of Waltzs time and trust. Neither Petrasche or Holmes were obviously familiar with the mountains interior prior to Waltz's instructions. I always keep in mind at the late date of Holmes revelations and that he seemed to look to discredit the other camp. There is a good chance that the stories are much closer in reality than one would believe. There are those who know the truth of such matters you can be sure, why we are left chasing tails in such matters is a good question.

Waltz was obviously no coward after his travels across the country. The Apache threat as the end of a losing battle was in sight, must of been intense. Waltz knew well the consequences of being caught in the open in that area and the punishment that would be due. Anyone caught in a corner with nothing to lose is dangerous indeed. I wonder not just of the validity of his later travels in the mountains, but also if he was feeling the area out. The Peraltas as well mined elsewhere in Arizona because of the threat.

The 3 books/journals/notes I would like to have are those of Tex Barkley and the Petrasche brothers. These non existent sources would likely change most of what we know. Rhiney could change hundreds of pages of text if he was alive today.
Ray Tucker
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Post by Ray Tucker »

Zentull,

Your post is very thought inspiring and timely for I am currently in the process of comparing the Holmes Maunscript with Sims Ely's Book. Just going by what I have read preciously on this site, I am sure that some people would disagree with you about whether or not Waltz actually knew any Peraltas. I strongly agree with you. From what I have gleaned from Ely's book, I can easily see Julia and Rhiney getting confused about landmarks and directions, but not the basic story about how Waltz came to know about the mine. You could tell that story to a six year old and they could repeat it to you pretty accurately a week later. There is no reason for Julia and Rhiney to lie about that or any complicated details to get confused over.

What does bother me is the story told about how Waltz found the mine as told in the Holmes Manuscript. Although it is a perfectly believable story for the times, It is so different than the Thomas/Petrasch version that somebody is either lying or just didn't know the truth.

Between the two versions of the story, I have to conclude that the Thomas/Petrasch is the true story, and the Holmes version was fabricated from a partial knowledge of the truth (the part about Waltz killing some Mexicans at the mine) and and the rest was filled in by someone's imiganition.

Ray
Gene Reynolds
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What was said?

Post by Gene Reynolds »

Everyone here talks about what these people said - Holmes and Roberts and Rhiney - what did they say? Does anyone here have a post on what they said (word for word) = ?

Gene
Writer of Borrego 13
TGH
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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Ray Tucker
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Post by Ray Tucker »

TGH,

Hmmmmmmmmm. That would be a reasonable explaination.

I am learning that the name Peralta was a well known name in mining during Waltz's time. It is possible that Waltz just used the name with a made up story for J/R as you suggest to soften it up. That being the case, J/R wouldn't have lied about what they had been told, and Waltz's reason for lying to them would be understandable. And...... it would have been something he would have wanted to clear the record of before meeting his maker.

I'll be looking forward to your information tomorrow.

Thanks,

Ray
TGH
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Post by TGH »

oops
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TGH
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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zentull
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Post by zentull »

If I remember correctly there were Peraltas in the Bradshaws as well as Wickenburg/Vulture mine area during the same time frame as Waltz was possibly in the area. The Peraltas in the Bradshaws quit because of problems with the Apaches if I remember that correctly as well.

This account possibly rings truer, but leaves even more doubt as to any relationship between Holmes and Waltz. Why Holmes was always confused of the relationship between Julia and Waltz is odd. Why is Roberts seemingly excluded here and what did he ever say of the incident? Where was the doctors house/office and how long would the trip take Julia? I have tried to walk off that time frame, but street lights and downtown traffic was probably lighter then. Not recommended for most, too many transients hanging around the area anymore. Jackson is particularly very "Dawn of the dead" like. Waltzs burial spot is surrounded by an Army of them.

The nephew story also is strange. It never meshes with me. This version could include Weiser, then Waltz sends for his nephew, who is as ghostly as Weiser. Did this account mention that Waltz knew he was clearly speaking to Holmes or could he have thought it was Julia or Rhiney. Was he trying to clarify instructions and make them more simple? I would find it more interesting what Brownie thought of what he was told years later, knowing more of what was happening before and after.

Of course we have the Peter Backen theory which just doesn't mesh at all.
TGH
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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Ray Tucker
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Post by Ray Tucker »

TGH

There doesn't seem to be any question as to whether or not Holmes talked to Waltz on his deathbed. The questions are... Did Waltz know who he was talking to, and is that conversation accurately transcribed in the Holmes manuscript?

Ray
TGH
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
thegoldbug
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Questions about the types of gold ore

Post by thegoldbug »

Leland Lovelace wrote the book, "Lost Mines & Hidden Treasures", and in it describes Waltz's mines. On pages 134 - 135 she said that Jake claimed to have three mines:

1. The Quartz Mine
2. Placer Mine nearby the Quartz Mine
3. Number Two Mine - near Goldfield.

Her research indicted that Jake had four types of gold that had been reported by people doing business with him or seeing/obtaining it as follows:

1. Gold in pale yellow quartz - this was gold paid to Charlie Rodig, a shoemaker.
2. Gold in white quartz - Jake gave this gold to Julie Thomas to pay her debts and is the same as Brownie Holmes had and is in the infamous matchbox.
3. Wire gold in black quartz.
4. Nugget gold in pink quartz.

-------------------
My questions:

Has anyone ever seen or heard of gold in pink "rose" quartz before?

There are very few known rose quartz sources in the USA. Therefore, anyone finding such a deposit/source in Arizona should be come excited.

Has anyone ever seen or heard of wire gold in black quartz? Would this also be considered rare?

The same goes for citrine or yellow quartz.

I've been troubled by this for many years. I don't recall where or when I read it but that rose quartz gold doesn't set right with me.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

thegoldbug

PS keep up the postings as I'm just getting back into reading about the LDM after a 30 year break. Has it been that long really? Wow, I would have thought it would have been found (and leaked out) by now.
thegoldbug
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