LDM,
To myself, the subject regarding Bessie Lovelace, is most interesting. In Tom Glovers book, Part 1: The Golden Dream, Glover included a map on pg. 333 called the Barry Storm-Ruth Map. Glover mentions that Leland Lovelace always claimed that this map was the one possessed by Jacobs and Ludi of the Lost German Mine story. Do you by any chance know if the map Tom Glover printed in his book, is a copy of the map Mrs. Lovelace claimed to have in her possession at one time?
Terry
Three in one
3 in one
I beleive reed was a recluse who grew vegies and fruits in the sup,s he was friends with the dutchman and was also one of the FEW friends of the APACHE too! REED was suppose to have wife and a daughter in ca. He was suppose to be weloff. The way the dutchman lived he didn,t need or use much money either! Bill
Loveless, Lovelace,
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Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Storm
I agree with LDM’s assessment of how Storm must have put his book(s) together. There is no doubt he obtained information from Ms. Loveless (and some others as well) – and then combined that with his own “field research” to make his book. Lifting the information, and publishing it for all intents and purposes as his own, is un-ethical to say the least. However, in his mind, he probably though he covered himself. If one looks carefully in the “Notes of Authenticity” at the back of THUNDER GODS GOLD, there is a passing reference to Ms. Loveless. It is humble and in no way indicates her contribution. But, it is there.
Storm was obviously fascinated with Black Top Mesa. And I see it that when he did lift information - to add to his book to make “his” case - he picked and used only what fit his theories. It was certainly not an unbiased presentation of the information. Though, one has to say it is a marvelous tale he weaves in the pages of his book.
I have seen copies of the letters written to J. Frank Dobie. They are quite interesting. Storm was quite a scoundrel. He (Storm) apparently first showed up at Ms. Loveless place flashing a badge claiming to be a private detective – who was investigating the death of Adolph Ruth. With a tale like that, no wonder she opened up to him. Through the whole course of things, he never indicated he was an author himself. During their conversations she once mentioned she had a book that had old treasure symbols in it. Days later, Ms. Loveless came home one evening to find burnt matches all over her living room floor. It was as if someone had broken into her home and was searching for something – burning matches to see so as not to have to turn on overhead lights. Ms. Loveless assumed the culprit to be Storm – and that he was searching for the book of treasure symbols. Obviously he must have been looking for an old book, thinking that is where the symbols would reside. But the book was not discovered nor stolen - as it was still in her bookcase. That is because the book in question was simply J. Frank Dobie’s CORONADO’S CHILDREN. Not some ancient Spanish tome. Needless to say, once Storm’s publications came out, she was not too happy.
Storm was obviously fascinated with Black Top Mesa. And I see it that when he did lift information - to add to his book to make “his” case - he picked and used only what fit his theories. It was certainly not an unbiased presentation of the information. Though, one has to say it is a marvelous tale he weaves in the pages of his book.
I have seen copies of the letters written to J. Frank Dobie. They are quite interesting. Storm was quite a scoundrel. He (Storm) apparently first showed up at Ms. Loveless place flashing a badge claiming to be a private detective – who was investigating the death of Adolph Ruth. With a tale like that, no wonder she opened up to him. Through the whole course of things, he never indicated he was an author himself. During their conversations she once mentioned she had a book that had old treasure symbols in it. Days later, Ms. Loveless came home one evening to find burnt matches all over her living room floor. It was as if someone had broken into her home and was searching for something – burning matches to see so as not to have to turn on overhead lights. Ms. Loveless assumed the culprit to be Storm – and that he was searching for the book of treasure symbols. Obviously he must have been looking for an old book, thinking that is where the symbols would reside. But the book was not discovered nor stolen - as it was still in her bookcase. That is because the book in question was simply J. Frank Dobie’s CORONADO’S CHILDREN. Not some ancient Spanish tome. Needless to say, once Storm’s publications came out, she was not too happy.
the truth
S.C, LDM,
Seems like a great thread. Really haven`t a clue to what Ms. Loveless was all about but would really enjoy hearing the story if you folks would share.
If this lady can give us a better picture of what happened, I say bring it on.
Regards,
Late49er
Seems like a great thread. Really haven`t a clue to what Ms. Loveless was all about but would really enjoy hearing the story if you folks would share.
If this lady can give us a better picture of what happened, I say bring it on.
Regards,
Late49er
the truth
LDM,
Actually I would be very interested in your interpretation of Ms. Loveless`s collection. Having read a number of your posts I have always found them to be informative and revealing.
In fact, for what it is worth, you had a post in 2002 that I believe is probably the most importent post that was ever made on this site.
Believe you are saying that the winners write the history books. Maybe so but at the end of the day what they write is not the history, just good fiction.
Hope you will share.
As far as what some people think, who cares.
TGH,
Thank you for the follow up on the Loveless post. Not sure why Storm had that read. Have to admit though I never read his work. There is something importent in Black Top, not one of the LDM`s.
Regards,
Late49er
Actually I would be very interested in your interpretation of Ms. Loveless`s collection. Having read a number of your posts I have always found them to be informative and revealing.
In fact, for what it is worth, you had a post in 2002 that I believe is probably the most importent post that was ever made on this site.
Believe you are saying that the winners write the history books. Maybe so but at the end of the day what they write is not the history, just good fiction.
Hope you will share.
As far as what some people think, who cares.
TGH,
Thank you for the follow up on the Loveless post. Not sure why Storm had that read. Have to admit though I never read his work. There is something importent in Black Top, not one of the LDM`s.
Regards,
Late49er
Loveless
LDM
I appreciate your sharing of the existence of the Loveless files at ASU and NAU.
Again it appears I was reading someone wrong! Her work or that of Frank Dobie was not addressed on the Doug Stewart site so I had sort of written their accounts off as probably not adding much to the Lost Dutchman Story. Also I had searched on Leland Lovelace and got the impression she was writing about caves with giant stone furniture and golden artifacts, etc. (Not much to inspire confidence)
Your account and that of S. C. certainly whets the appetite. I don't know whether I will ever get the chance to view the files first hand but I did decide to order both the Loveless and Dobie Book. While I was at it I got Trail of the Lost Dutchman by Storm (1939). The Dobie Book starts at about $5, Loveless $10 and anything by Storm goes for a lot more! It appears his popularity certainly endures while Loveless is a minor player. Your comments shed new light on the story for me.
Many of us are looking forward to anything else you are able to share about her research and her rightful place in the LDM story.
Thanks,
Garry
I appreciate your sharing of the existence of the Loveless files at ASU and NAU.
Again it appears I was reading someone wrong! Her work or that of Frank Dobie was not addressed on the Doug Stewart site so I had sort of written their accounts off as probably not adding much to the Lost Dutchman Story. Also I had searched on Leland Lovelace and got the impression she was writing about caves with giant stone furniture and golden artifacts, etc. (Not much to inspire confidence)
Your account and that of S. C. certainly whets the appetite. I don't know whether I will ever get the chance to view the files first hand but I did decide to order both the Loveless and Dobie Book. While I was at it I got Trail of the Lost Dutchman by Storm (1939). The Dobie Book starts at about $5, Loveless $10 and anything by Storm goes for a lot more! It appears his popularity certainly endures while Loveless is a minor player. Your comments shed new light on the story for me.
Many of us are looking forward to anything else you are able to share about her research and her rightful place in the LDM story.
Thanks,
Garry
Loveless files
LDM,
Might we entice you to give us just a general summary of the contents of the Loveless files with emphisis on items that you found especially interesting?
Jan
Might we entice you to give us just a general summary of the contents of the Loveless files with emphisis on items that you found especially interesting?
Jan
Lovelace - Loveless
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Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Greenhorn
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:34 pm
TGH,
"Folks, if you think the LDM is on Black Top or in its vicinity, then you fail Dutch Hunting 101"
Wouldn't one have to positively know where the LDM is before he could positively say where it isn't?
"Like the fellow told Brownie.."its higher up and further away"........ "
How do you know that the fellow was looking for the LDM and not some other Mexican mine?
Ray
"Folks, if you think the LDM is on Black Top or in its vicinity, then you fail Dutch Hunting 101"
Wouldn't one have to positively know where the LDM is before he could positively say where it isn't?
"Like the fellow told Brownie.."its higher up and further away"........ "
How do you know that the fellow was looking for the LDM and not some other Mexican mine?
Ray
-
- Greenhorn
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:34 pm
TGH,
"Yup"
Can we expect to be seeing some photos of your ore samples from the mine anytime soon?
"Doesnt matter, same mtn"
I guess that verifies it!
I know this is a little off the subject, but I have this 40 acres of ocean front property in northern Arizona that I have been saving for just the right buyer. I can't take you there because it is a secret place that nobody knows about but me. If you will buy it sight unseen I will make you a great deal on it.
Ray
"Yup"
Can we expect to be seeing some photos of your ore samples from the mine anytime soon?
"Doesnt matter, same mtn"
I guess that verifies it!
I know this is a little off the subject, but I have this 40 acres of ocean front property in northern Arizona that I have been saving for just the right buyer. I can't take you there because it is a secret place that nobody knows about but me. If you will buy it sight unseen I will make you a great deal on it.
Ray
-
- Greenhorn
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:34 pm
TGH,
"Those that know...know"
Anybody that "KNOWS" without having seen the gold in the hole, knows "NOTHING". They are still working on theories and ideas. Compared to many on this website, I am new to Arizona and the whole LDM thing, but I have been around Colorado and Nevada Miners and Prospectors for many years. It's the same old story everywhere. "I'll find it on the next trip" or "It's only one foot deeper" or "If I only had .......".
Until you have seen the gold, you can't tell the other guy working 5 or 10 miles from where you think it is that that he is wrong.
Those that "KNOW" are still standing there empty handed. Right?
Ray
"Those that know...know"
Anybody that "KNOWS" without having seen the gold in the hole, knows "NOTHING". They are still working on theories and ideas. Compared to many on this website, I am new to Arizona and the whole LDM thing, but I have been around Colorado and Nevada Miners and Prospectors for many years. It's the same old story everywhere. "I'll find it on the next trip" or "It's only one foot deeper" or "If I only had .......".
Until you have seen the gold, you can't tell the other guy working 5 or 10 miles from where you think it is that that he is wrong.
Those that "KNOW" are still standing there empty handed. Right?
Ray
Depending on what you read and how much you enjoy it can be a curse of where you think the LDM is. I have heard people who believe it is definitely on Bluff Springs, Black Top Mesa, Peters Mesa, Pistol Canyon, Weavers Needle, The Flat Iron, Music Mountain, Coffee flat and Malapais Mountain, just to name a few. Most of the arguments can sound convincing. That the Spanish/Mexican miners showed up, mined a little and got run off, is weak if not naive thinking. There is too much evidence spread out that there was a number of areas worked over an extended period of time to believe the LDM would be easy to find. Finding the right hole is difficult, A possible Peralta mine working easy.
Pick a spot and I am sure you will find something to get you excited the first dozen times. After a while you will start to realize the beginning of the story is bigger than you could of imagined. Black Top Mesa and Bluff Springs are fun and will teach you more than any book. How much gold would prove you found the mine? Not enough to convince most people. The chase is better than the catch.
I dont need the money, just the fresh air and solitude.
Pick a spot and I am sure you will find something to get you excited the first dozen times. After a while you will start to realize the beginning of the story is bigger than you could of imagined. Black Top Mesa and Bluff Springs are fun and will teach you more than any book. How much gold would prove you found the mine? Not enough to convince most people. The chase is better than the catch.
I dont need the money, just the fresh air and solitude.