X marks the spot

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

X marks the spot

Post by sluicebox »

I was just looking at aireal photographs of Peters Mesa and ran across an interesting curiosity. There is a large dark X in the saddle between Black Mountain and Peters Mesa. I'm trying to decide if it might be an alien landing site, entrance to a tunnel from here to Mexico, a stash marker, or X marks "THE' spot. I measured it, and it is about 65 or 70 feet long at each cross section. My resolution isn't good enough for details, so I guess I'll have to check it out on my next trip to determine if it's aliens or a stash marker. I'll keep you informed if I don't get abducted.

Actually, I was looking for the "round Indian ruin of rocks" mentioned in the Holmes Manuscript. It's suppposed to be in the saddle before you head up the second long ridge. Just wondering if anyone who has actually been there has ever seen something resembeling this clue in that saddle? This clue doesn't seem to get the same press at the "Rock that looks like a man." I haven't actually been there yet, but have it on my hiking schedule for next winter.

Regards, Sluicebox
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

The "round Indian ruin of rock" is no longer in existence. It was not built by Apache, Yavapais or Cherrycows, but my understanding is that it existed before the modern tribes arrived in the area. It was destroyed by ranchers/LDM seekers in the early part of the last century.

The area (rock ruin) was/is considered "taboo" to the Apache and they avoided the area unless dire need drove them there. If someone saw the area today they would say "nah, that cant be the place........".

P
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

Post by sluicebox »

TGH,

Thanks for your reply. In your post, you didn't mention if the round Indian ruin of rock used to be at the Peters Mesa saddle. I assumed that is what you meant as you did not indicate that is was elsewhere. Would that be a good assumption on my part?

Regards, Sluicebox
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Sluice,

You are correct. I did not mention where its location is. This location, while not a big secret.... is not mine to tell on the forum. Lets just say it is east of Labarge Canyon.

P
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

X marks the spot

Post by bill711 »

tgh; is this circle the one that used to be upon top of a high steep hill? bill 8)
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

Post by sluicebox »

TGH,

OK, thanks. At least I know I'm looking for a clue that no longer exists as it did when the Dutchman used it as a prominent landmark. Would I also be pushing the limits of forum disclosure if I asked whether or not you know if any of the possible clues in Walter Gessler's notes are still visible somewhere East of Labarge Canyon? I 'm talking about things like three boulders, charcoal pits and grindstones. Oh yeah, let's not forget the mine shaft covered by 6 foot of timber and dirt. Perhaps I'm being a little naive since I've only been to this area via air photos, but it seems like anyone could follow Gessler's directions over the north end of Peters Mesa and back south and find these clues if they were still there. I guess that's a problem for modern day Dutch hunters. What was a clue even in the mid 1900's may no longer be visible as a clue today - for whatever reason.

Regards, Sluicebox

Regards, Sluicebox
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Bill

The location of the circle was definitely NOT up on a high, steep hill. Think more in terms of a gentle slope (for that country) leading to a rocky climb.

P
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Sluice,

Its no secret that I am familiar with Walters story and landmarks. The charcoal fire pits were located near Black Mtn (ah...but WHICH Black Mtn?..lol). I do not beleive that any evidence of their existence remains after all these years. Some of the grinding stones still exist, they were, for the most part, either destroyed or turned upside down to disguise what they were. I have found a couple of them on the west side of Peters Dome, down in a wash that heads west then south then west until it drops off into Labarge. As to Walters "three wickiups"
take your pick..theres lots of boulder outcroppings to choose from. He beleived that there was a covered over mine above his camp in the tree grove on the west side of Peters Dome. I do not think he ever claimed that he had found a covered over mine up in that country.

P
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

X marks the spot

Post by bill711 »

Tgh; I was thinking of the oval circle on a high hill that Tom K. and some others found one time. I had read and seen pic,s of it then later I seen pic,s of one just like it from Europe or somewhere over there, I seen it on the A&E or the history channel. I beleive that the Gus Barkly said he upset and destroyed the grinding stones and HERE might be a tip He broke the top off of one of the tall boulders trying to turn it over. Who knows? I hope your tubes co-operating again. I had a hard time with mine too. I been having to battle the Joe all by myself. He,s nimble tho. HERE,s ONE for you WHY do indian,s or most of them it seems to me WHY do they consider that places where people once lived are taboo? Is it they think spirits still dwell there??? Thank,s for your reply TGH. Bill 8)
TGH
Expert
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:03 am

Post by TGH »

Bill

The ruin you mean is called Circlestone. It is in the eastern portion of the range. Thats about my depth of knowledge of it, sorry.

Not so sure there are any spirits in the vicinity of the rock ruin. None that would bother with a bumbling white eyes like myself. Havent seen or felt any in any event...

P
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Death

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

It is a little hard to understand the Apache attitude towards death and those who have died. The reason I seperate the two, is because the answer to your question has many faces.

I know you are not fond of quotes from books, but that is where the answers can most easily be found.

On page 427 of "An Apache Life-Way" by Morris Edward Opler, he says the following: "In spite of the great terror surrounding death, suicides occasionally occur when life becomes unbearable. Individuals have committed suicide when captured by the enemy, when stunned with grief at the loss of a child or some other close relative, or as a result of martial strife."

Simply put, it seems that the Apache were terrified of the "aura" that surrounded death, but did not actually fear dying.

On page 475 he explains further: "Camp life must be reconstructed in a new locality and on a different basis. 'following a death we move camp.
The relatives don't want to live in the same place. It doesn't matter whether the person died in the home or not. It is destroyed anyway. Usually it is burned. And they do not go back around that old camp site much either.'"

It is a very good question that requires a great deal more historical information than this site can justify. Peter could probably explain it a lot better but chose to keep his answer brief. Perhaps if you press him a little, we can all benefit.

Your question delves deeply into the historical makeup of the Apache. The answers are out there, but will only be found, by most of us, with a great deal of reading.

Respectfully,

Joe
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

Post by sluicebox »

TGH, bill711,

When I fisrt read this clue, my first thought was Circlestone, but Mound Mt. seemed too far east to make the trip in one day from Cottonwood creek. Dick Holmes seemed to be indicating Peters trail from Charlebois Spring to the head of Peters Canyon was the "military trail", so I started looking at saddles in that area.

I'm wondering if there is any place a guy could get a look at a grinding stone like the Mexicans would have used? I wouldn't know a grinding stone from a flying saucer if I saw one. Thanks for the info on the general area, it should make my first trip to the area interesting and give me a little orientation once I get there.

Regards, Sluicebox
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Metates

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sluicebox,

Type "metates" in your address bar and enjoy.

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

X marks the spot

Post by bill711 »

Sluicebox; I remember the indian morter and metat when I was a kid. The morter was just a large rock about a foot or so around or square with a large hollow in it. The metat or pedestoles were about 5X5 inches with hand holdes or prints worn in them. You could see the ends where they rubbed with them. The country cousins used them for chicken waterers. Water in the hollow. You could usually find the morters around where they used them nut trees or corn patches, berry bushes. Where they found food for dinner,s. YES Joe the indian was notional alright. Bill 8) PS My country cuz used to keep theirs by the old well where they could dump some water in it every now and then. Chickens and dogs and cats used it.
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

Post by sluicebox »

Joe, Thanks for the translation. I found lots of pictures and have a better idea of what to look for. Regards, Sluicebox
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

Post by sluicebox »

bill, If the chickens and dogs and cats used it, that must have given the biscuits and gravy a really unique flavor. Regards, Sluicebox
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

What About........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sluicebox,

What about the giant 1 in the side of Weaver's Needle? Dead ringer for the 1 on the Stone Maps. 8O

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

X marks the spot

Post by bill711 »

Sluice; It was used for watering the live stock only with my cuz,s. The indians used them for food grinding, This grit from their food and other ruffage was why the poor indians teeth were ground down to nubbs by 30 yrs. of age. People used to pick them up here and there where the indians used them. My cuz,s the man would get up early and have the biscuts done before the weman got out of bed. The weman did the other food. They were as country and poor as you can get, BUT all their kids became doctors scool teachers and carpenders. It sure suprised me. BUT it happened. It sure beat picking cotton HUH! They lived out in the country abt. 15 miles on an old dirt roads it would have taken them 2 hours to drive to town. They were well thought of by everyone around always ready to help whenever it was needed. When the state blacktoped the road and hired the dad for a fire ranger they got some cash income in 1962. they did better the older ones all died with money in the bank. Bill 8)
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

Post by sluicebox »

Joe,

Which side of Weaver's Needle would that be on? So far, I've only been to the South side. The photo I took from the bluff N/E of Freemont Saddle is now the background on my computer screen, and I don't see one on that side. I checked my air photos, but don't have an overlay for my map program that coveres the N/W side. I could see a large circle on the East side, but don't have the resolution to see what it is made of. My hiking partner doesn't like to hike in the summer heat, but it doesn't bother me at all. I go slower and drink more water. I could make the trip to Weaver's and back in one day no problem if I knew where to look when I got there. I'm starting a photo album of my trips into the Sups and would like to add that to my collection if you wouldn't mind pointing me in the right direction. Regards, Sluicebox
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

X

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sluicebox,

Sorry, you will have to find the 1 on your own. The priest is on the south side of the Needle, so if you were lucky (right time of the day) you may have that shadow in your picture.

There is also a large X on the west side of Bluff Spring Mountain. :)

Good luck.

Respectfully,

Joe
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

The 1

Post by sluicebox »

Joe,

Well, at least that eliminates the North side for starters. I'm still working on basic Dutchman clues. I haven't gotten around to the Stone Maps yet. But, now that I know the general vicinity of a couple of clues, I might have to start some research before I take that hike.
Regards, Sluicebox
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

North?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sluicebox,

Nothing I have said eliminates the north side of the Needle as the location of the 1.

Respectfully,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Lights On The Needle

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Sluicebox,

A lot of years ago, I was camped in East Boulder just above Piper Spring.
We met a couple who had set up camp close by. We talked around their fire and drank "camp coffee". They were doing research for a book they were writing.

He told us he had worked for Ed Piper. The woman was classy and the man was well spoken and seemed very intelligent. This was the first time I heard the story of the lights on the Needle.

While sitting around Ed's camp they all noticed a series of lights going up the north side of the Needle. It looked like a fair number of people climbing up the needle carrying torches. One by one the lights blinked out as they arrived at a specific point on the Needle.

Some time later, one by one, the lights reappeared and moved back down the mountain. Piper and his crew searched the area and found nothing.

They all believed there was an entrance into the mountain, on the north side. Does all of this have anything to do with the 1, the priest or some kind of treasure?

Even though I am only here to receive information, :roll: I can tell you this:

The man swore the story was true and I can assure you the 1 and the priest are on Weaver's Needle.

If you can locate the entrance into the Needle, and find a treasure, I expect you will make me a rich man. Agreed? :)

You should have the mountain to yourself, as not many care to make that climb in the heat.

Good luck.

Respectfully,

Joe
Grayhair
Greenhorn
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:55 am
Location: Apache Junction

Summer hike

Post by Grayhair »

Sluicebox,

Check your PM.
sluicebox
Part Timer
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:22 am

lights

Post by sluicebox »

Joe,

Interesting story about the lights. If someone is still frequenting the entrance to the Weaver's Needle at this location, they might consider its contents ( if any) as personal property. My first thought as I read the story was that it might be one of those indian ceremonies celebrated at a certain phase of the moon at a certain time of year. I'm not nearly as well versed in the local Indian traditions as you seem to be, and I'm sure you would know more about that possibility. If there is something there, I'm one of those guys who would like to see it "just because it's there", or might be.

Not to worry Joe, If I should happen across a cave filled with Spanish treasure on the north side of the Neddle, I'll remember where I heard the story, but you'll have to pay your own taxes.


I guess you are right, there is nothing in your post that eliminates the 1 being on the North side. Guess I just got in a hurry there and made an association between the shodow of the priest and the 1 . I'll have to re-examine my pics of the south side of the Needle. I'll probably stay up late tonight reading up on stone map interpretations. I wouldn't want to start out totally unprepared. Thanks for sharing the story, it should make my trip to the north side of WN more interesting.

Regards, Sluicebox
Post Reply