Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

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Mike McChesney
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

The closest individual match I saw at a glance was:

1. Elise Muller (ISTG) / Elise Mueller (Book Manifest)

The blocks of names from cities were reversed and the last names changed. Just enough work so that individual duplicate names could not be found using the search engine on the website, but a closer scrutiny of entire manifests made it clear.

Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

That may have been the one that I found as well. Memory :roll:

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by novice »

Paul,

Go ahead and post your list, (we don't need any more cross-eyed treasure hunters!) To humor me, give the Schmidts a passing notice. I know they weren't in your original list and the name is common and their origin is different but Schmidt is an important name in the overall tale. :)

Also you might pass on your methodology so that if someone else wants to chase down another manifest that includes some of the names on Corbin's manifest they can try their luck. It appears obvious that Corbin has left out a lot of names in her book that the fabricator had probably included. (Her list is not complete - if you go by the numbering) It might not add much but it would be interesting to see the complete list. I suspect it would be included in Helen's material she used to put her book together?

Garry
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

Garry,

The passengers in the manifest in Corbin's Book were taken from more than one actual manifest in the ISTG Archives. What Paul found was one of the sources the hoaxster used to get blocks of data.

The way the hoaxster played with the information makes it so you can't use last names for comparisons. They took a block of names from one town in Europe (for instance Ostinghausen, Prussia). Say this was a block of six names. The last names were changed so looking them up using the ISTG Search Engine would be impossible. In some cases the group of names was reversed. In most cases the trades mtch.

I recommend taking one city (say Ostinghausen,Prussia or Penzwagen) Penzwagen only has (I think) four entries. A quick look will show the similarities.

Best. Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Cubfan64 »

Garry, I hope you don't mind, but I used your formatted list since the comparison was easier to follow than what I originally put together. It's the same information, just presented better than what I did :)

I = ISTG
O = Olbers
(Mississippi1846) Olbers Manifest (1839)
53-I Henry Muller 63 Sost, Prussia farmer
109-O Henry F. Muller 60 Sost, Prussia paysan

54-I Gertrud Muller 43 Sost, Prussia wife
110-O Gertrud Muller 59 Sost, Prussia dressmaker

63-I Caroline Moser 12 Hukratha, Prussia child
79-O Caroline Moser 12 Horb, Wurttemberg daughter

88-I John Herm. Bodemann 57 Menslage, Hannover carpenter
125-O Hermann A. Bodemann 53 Nagold Wurrtemberg miller

89-I John Henry Bodemann 24 Menslage, Hannover miller
125-O Hermann A. Bodemann 53 Nagold Wurrtemberg miller

111-I Albert C. Linder 49 Bosbach, Bayern farmer
81-O Albert C. Linder 43 Bosbach, Bayern farmer

112-I Marie Linder 37 Bosbach, Bayern wife
82-O Marie Linder 37 Bosbach, Bayern wife

113-I John Linder 4 Bosbach, Bayern son
83-O John Linder 9 Bosbach, Bayern son

136-I Christian Noltemeyer 2 Messenkamp, Hannover nephew
84-O Christian V. Noltemeyer 23 Messenkamp, Hannover painter

137-I Franz Mihlan 37 Neuroden, Schlesien locksmith
85-O Franz Mihlan 36 Neuroden, Schlesien locksmith

153-I Jacob Grunwald 21 Penzwangen, Wurrtemburg backer
8-O Jacob Grunwald 21 Penzwangen, Bayern driver

154-I Christian Unterkirch 22 Penzwangen, Bayern farmer
9-O Christian Unterkirch 23 Penzwangen, Bayern farmer

155-I Gottlieb Dannnemann 20 Penzwangen, Bayern weaver
6-O Gottlieb Dannnemann 24 Penzwangen, Bayern weaver

There are hardly any EXACT matches, sometimes the age, origin or trades were changed.

I wish I could say I followed a very logical plan and started finding the names quickly.

Instead, I just started picking last names from the fabricated manifest that looked to be less “common” than others and then started looking in Ancestry immigration information in an effort to find an exact match. It was tedious and it probably took me a couple hours before I quite literally stumbled on one of the names (I think it was Christian Unterkirch) that looked like it fit. I got lucky here too as Christian Unterkirch, his age, profession, etc... was one of the ones that was almost an exact match.

That sent me to the 1846 Mississippi ship manifest and from there I just got lucky and found quite a few “copies” on the same passenger list – or at least some that looked too close to be coincidence.
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Gentlemen,

For me, this conversation has gone as far as I care to go. This will be my last post on this topic.

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

I am with Joe here. I have to move from here to find what other stories and "facts" I now have to question, and how/if they affect any theories I have formed.

A crappy situation indeed. Everybody say Thank You to the nice man that made all this possible! LOL

Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by novice »

Gee Paul, you could have at least have corrected my spelling of Dannemann!

You will notice that in Corbin’s manifest, many of the immigrants were from Horb Wurttemberg and Nagold, Wurttemberg. Waltz was supposedly from Horb and Nagold??. I believe all of these entries were in support of the Waltz origin that appears in Corbin.

You will notice several Schmidts in the Olber’s manifest and this is an attempt to tie Jacob to an alleged brother Ignote (Ignace) Waltz who shows up in the 1850 census in Castroville, Texas. Ignace was listed with a Lawrence Schmidt (Surprise, Lawrenz Schmidt appears in the Olber’s manifest) and of course this is part of the connection to Waltz’s sister who supposedly married a Schmidt.

We have been able to trace Ignace Waltz’s genealogy and he was certainly not the brother of our Jacob.

Corbin's book used this story with the tale about Waltz stopping at Fort Hondo (I have never found such a place in 1849) near Castroville on his way to California as a 49er. This is when he became acquainted with George Riley Roberts and Abraham Peeples. (That’s another story.)

The sister married to Schmidt supposedly went to the western Missouri and eastern Kansas area and walla, we have a transmitting draft on a Manhattan Kansas back for 50 pounds of gold ore worth $7,000 from Jacob. (In my opinion the transmitting draft is the most impressive of the advertised authentic documents).

Corbin falsely ties the Thomas Weedin letters to Jacob Weiser (Weiss) who, I’m confident, never existed except in Ray and Liz Howland’s imagination.

There are other connections but this is simply my take of a few of the stories that have their roots in the Olber’s manifest. Anyway you get the idea.

Someone went to a lot of trouble to spin this tale but there are way too many flaws for my taste.

Garry
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

novice wrote:Gee Paul, you could have at least have corrected my spelling of Dannemann!

You will notice that in Corbin’s manifest, many of the immigrants were from Horb Wurttemberg and Nagold, Wurttemberg. Waltz was supposedly from Horb and Nagold??. I believe all of these entries were in support of the Waltz origin that appears in Corbin.

You will notice several Schmidts in the Olber’s manifest and this is an attempt to tie Jacob to an alleged brother Ignote (Ignace) Waltz who shows up in the 1850 census in Castroville, Texas. Ignace was listed with a Lawrence Schmidt (Surprise, Lawrenz Schmidt appears in the Olber’s manifest) and of course this is part of the connection to Waltz’s sister who supposedly married a Schmidt.

We have been able to trace Ignace Waltz’s genealogy and he was certainly not the brother of our Jacob.

Corbin's book used this story with the tale about Waltz stopping at Fort Hondo (I have never found such a place in 1849) near Castroville on his way to California as a 49er. This is when he became acquainted with George Riley Roberts and Abraham Peeples. (That’s another story.)

The sister married to Schmidt supposedly went to the western Missouri and eastern Kansas area and walla, we have a transmitting draft on a Manhattan Kansas back for 50 pounds of gold ore worth $7,000 from Jacob. (In my opinion the transmitting draft is the most impressive of the advertised authentic documents).

Corbin falsely ties the Thomas Weedin letters to Jacob Weiser (Weiss) who, I’m confident, never existed except in Ray and Liz Howland’s imagination.

There are other connections but this is simply my take of a few of the stories that have their roots in the Olber’s manifest. Anyway you get the idea.

Someone went to a lot of trouble to spin this tale but there are way too many flaws for my taste.

Garry
Garry,

I am not at home right now, but I think the Weiss (Weisser) Story came from Sims Ely who was told the story personally by Weedin (who was at the time running for some office)? I will look back into Ely's Book tonight to verify, but I think I just reread that part a few days ago.

Best-Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

Garry,

I just got home and verified my previous statement.

In Sims Ely's "The Lost Dutchman Mine" on pages 46-47:
Thereupon I closed the office door firmly, we lighted fresh cigars, and Tom Weedin told, while I (Sims Ely) listened with rapt attention, the story of Jacob Weiser's fate.
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by novice »

Mike,

I believe the answer to the Jacob Weiser origin is not quite as simple as Sims Ely inserting a story in a book written in 1953. :)

If you ever have chance, you might like to read a couple of articles that Steve Creager wrote following the trail of how some of the elements of the Lost Dutchman story got included in the popularly accepted version we see today. One appeared in the Superstition Mountain Museum Messenger (“Jacob Waltz’s Partner”, July- Sept 2003) while I believe the other appeared in the Superstition Mountain Journal. I don’t have the issue as Steve simply sent me a MS Word document that he prepared for the article. The Word document was entitled “Thomas Weedin and the Lost Dutchman Legend”. He also provided numerous sources for his research.

Thomas Weedin told his account of the John Walker story in a 1901 newspaper article but the reference simply called the prospector a “German”. (No Jacob Weiser).

Weedin drew heavily on the Bicknell article (1895) and though he did not name Waltz in the 1901 article, he made the connection of Jacob Waltz with the John Walker story.

Weedin later wrote letters to Sims Ely in 1912 explaining the now famous map and he again simply refers to the Dutchman”. (No Jacob Weiser) In Corbin’s book, we find that someone has added Weiser to the Weedin letters. Such is the way legends grow! :o

This discussion doesn’t belong in this thread and it’s much too involved to try and sort out in a few posts. There is quite a bit of material out there and if you want to argue that a definitive statement can be made regarding the partner of Waltz being Jacob Weiser, you would do well to bring a “cannon”, along with a lot of research to the conversation. In my mind, Ely is like brining a toy pistol to the discussion. MIKE, I’m just teasing you!!! :lol:

I am personally not a fan of Ely’s book although I know that is blasphemy in Dutchman circles. BUT, I’m a huge fan of the Jim Bark Notes. Go figure!

Garry
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

Garry,

I put what stock I do in Sims Ely's Book simply because his is a personal narrative that was closer to the subject than anything else out there. Most everything else out there draws from his book or flies in the face of it. If we had something like it that was admitted to be from Dick Holmes, then there may be a rival to Ely. As it stands now, Ely's second hand Waltz information is far better than anything else available.

Although Ely's Book was first printed in 1953, in it he states that it was in 1911 that Weedin told him the story at the behest of Jim Bark. So, to dismiss the story, one would have to say that either Ely or Weedin was a liar.

I have also stated several times that I personally believe about 95% of all the well known "facts" and "clues" are bogus, and that anybody relying on them to find the DLM will do better with dowsing rods. Most of those clues and facts came from people who were still actively hunting the mine. Why would they share information that would allow someone else to come in and find what they had been trying to find for so long? Simple answer: THEY WOULDN'T! Most of that information was likely designed to lead people away from where they were looking for the DLM. I don't sound jaded at all do I! Lol

Bestv- Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

Oh, and since the whole manifest fiasco, I have to admit that technically, there is just as much hard evidence for the existence of a nephew Jacob Weiss (Weiser) as there is for a partner/friend Jacob Weiser.

I still tend to lean towards the Sims Ely version. He seemed to place some importance to the word of Weedin.

Best-Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by alan m »

Hello Mike
Could you cite the references for the evidence in the existance of Waltz nephew?
In my opinion the Holmes manuscript is weak and Sims Ely's account is weaker still.
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by starman »

Hello Paul,

Mushrooms. They will start a new garden soon.

Starman
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

alan m wrote:Hello Mike
Could you cite the references for the evidence in the existance of Waltz nephew?
In my opinion the Holmes manuscript is weak and Sims Ely's account is weaker still.
Best Regards
Alan

Alan

I think you have it bassackwards if you think for a second that the Holmes Manuscript is even slightly in the same credibility league as Ely's Book.

Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Like many of the books that have been written about the LDM, I would have to agree with your statement. If you can find the mine with information from a book, Ely's is probably your best bet.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Cubfan64 »

starman wrote:Hello Paul,

Mushrooms. They will start a new garden soon.

Starman
Hmm - well that seems to be a random post directed to me. I haven't the foggiest idea what it may mean - care to explain?
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by starman »

Paul,

"For over a century, hordes of prospectors have sought the secret to Jacob Waltz`s lost gold mine in the dreaded Superstition Mountains. Reams of books have found their way into print regarding that mystery; unfortunately, many of those works were touted as truth when in fact there was no truth". Corbin, The Bible, page 343.

Look behind the curtain.


Starman
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

"Look behind the curtain."

We did.......Nobody there 'cept Ben. 8O

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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe,

As I have said many times before, I don't think anybody will ever find the DLM based on ANY book (no matter how accurate or inaccurate).

My bet is (as always) on some tree hugging nature lover who will be out to get a good pic of some natural feature, when his leg drops through the roof of the pit. He will donate all his money to PETA! HAHAHA

Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by alan m »

Hello Mike
I do not consider them to be in the same catagory, I accept Ely's information as valid, within the framework of what could be determined as the truth at that time.
The Holmes Manuscript, in my opinion, is a fairy tail.
Best Regards
Alan
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

hummm. dirteatintreehuggindruids to the rescue...

was out in that area yesterday... just watched the mountains for a few hours...too much smog...too many houses...

the mine will be found by some neanderthal construction worker digging a water line for some new subdivision....Wilderness Acres, a gated community.
he'll backfill and bitch about how difficult that quartz can be to dig...lucky this was crumbling and filled with brass chips...not even worth recycling...
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by Mike McChesney »

pippinwhitepaws wrote:hummm. dirteatintreehuggindruids to the rescue...

was out in that area yesterday... just watched the mountains for a few hours...too much smog...too many houses...

the mine will be found by some neanderthal construction worker digging a water line for some new subdivision....Wilderness Acres, a gated community.
he'll backfill and bitch about how difficult that quartz can be to dig...lucky this was crumbling and filled with brass chips...not even worth recycling...
HAHAHA That would be a ways in the future. Too much tree hugging going on right now. Raul Grijalva is still trying to turn the whole Santa Cruz River Valley into a wilderness area. Even if LDM State Park is closed forever, they will never let us start digging in there again.

Mike
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Re: Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

so..i lost all my reference materials...

did the dutchman go out in those mountains in the summer?
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