Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Roger and Joe; Good posts

Roger,

Sorry I jumped the gun on your post!

I wanted to comment on your suggestion that perhaps this Lutheran immigration would be a fertile place to search for Jacob Waltz's sister. I live in Missouri and have done some reading on this immigration. The people were almost all from Saxony and I don't think any were from Wurttenberg (Jacobs Origin). Many did settle in Perry County, Mo. which is actually in the Southeastern part of the state and not on the western edge where later we see ties to the Waltz story. I think it would be pretty remote if any of these settlers had any kind of tie to our Jacob Waltz. A sidelight; Martin Stephan who led the immigration was kicked out of the church four months after their arrival and was rowed across the Mississippi and dumped in Illinois. (Something about inappropriate behavior (they called it adultery) with some women in the party)

You also mention that the actual manifests are the only way to verify this. I still believe that the primary source for these manifests reside on the National Archive Microfilms. If you look at almost (I haven't looked at them all!) any of the transcribed manifests on the ISTG Site you will see down near the end a reference to these microfilms as the source. These are the ones I used to try to locate the Corbin Manifest.

Having said that, on the four ships that reached New Orleans carrying the German Lutherans we do find some additional information from Concordia Historical Institute (Lutheran). I suspect that in some cases, where it was a group religious immigration, there could be an additional source for a passenger list.

On the departure dates recorded for the four ships that Joe references. This information was almost surely derived from the church records residing at Concordia. I did find the departure date recorded on one ship's manifest that I browsed but it was certainly the exception. Of the other 25 or 30 I looked at, they did not record the date of departure.

Joe,

Even if we could find some passenger records of the Olbers at the port of Departure (Bremen), that is not the type of information that is recorded in the manifest in Corbin's book. The manifest as shown obviously represents the arrival in New Orleans, not something from Bremen.

Double Respectfully,

Novice
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

corbin,s list

Post by bill711 »

Well JOE ? NOVICE just POWDERED your behind! What do you have to say about that!! Huuuuhhh??8O bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Perhaps

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

"Even if we could find some passenger records of the Olbers at the port of Departure (Bremen), that is not the type of information that is recorded in the manifest in Corbin's book. The manifest as shown obviously represents the arrival in New Orleans, not something from Bremen."

Perhaps that is true, but there is nothing to indicate that the manifest was not a "living" document, started in Bremen and completed in New Orleans.
The Olbers actually made port on the twentieth of January and the manifest was signed on the twenty-first. I have little doubt that the passanger list was completed in Bremen.

One of the interesting things about Corbin's "document" is that there are six Schmidts, all from Horb, Wurttemburg, same as the two Jacobs. No additional Waltz or Weiss is shown on the incomplete manifest.

Did you find some evidence that Martin Stephan was married at the time?
Not having read "Zion on the Mississippi: The Settlement of the Saxon Lutherans in Missouri", I am not sure he was. No wife is shown on the manifest, only a son. For there to have been "adultry" involved. the woman would have to have been married. Martin Sr. was 61 years old when he stepped of of the boat.

Most of the "Saxon Lutherans" seem to have originated in Dresden. It seems you are correct, that none "were from Wurtte(m)berg".

Bill,

Have a cup of coffee. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

Helen,s list

Post by bill711 »

JOE; Having read your reply I have to say: you are still sucking behind!!! You are agoin to havf todo bet- er next go roun to catch up with him, He,s nimble!!! Bill 8)
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Joe,

Regarding Martin Stephan and the Lutheran Immigration; Using Daniel Boone's expression; I'm sure we're "sucking a dry cow." The book I read was called "Except the Corn Die" which was a historical novel based on the 2 books you mentioned previously. I'm sure Stephan wasn't married and it wasn't even clear to the author whether it was actual adultery or the fact that the girls involved had such puritan beliefs that they may have thought that inappropriate touching constituted adultery. (It was 1839)

I certainly agree that the information for the manifest was probably gathered in Bremen and the form shown in Corbin on Page 9 would have been filled out in New Orleans (The form even notes the number who died during the crossing).

Perhaps I should be reframing my original question from when I started my search. Can the manifest as presented by Corbin be determined to be authentic? I have certainly not been able to do this.

Now the question might become; Are there some seeds of authenticity within the information presented by Corbin? If we could find the ship Olbers leaving Bremen on October 1st, 1838, I would certainly consider that a seed, but that would still not erase all of the other apparently incorrect information that appears in the manifest.

All,

I found it interesting to reread Tom Kollenborn's article "The Latest Facts About Jacob Waltz" on the LDM home page. We may be looking at some of the roots for Corbin's manifest, the Olbers, Horb and the New Orleans Port of Arrival. Tom certainly wasn't involved with the manifest but these kinds of items were probably common knowledge within the LDM?

I do want to give Helen credit regarding the way she presented a lot of the information in it's original form when she had it. The Petrasch ship manifest is a great example (Page 123). I suspect that if she had the image of the Olber's manifest she would have used that instead of the typewritten document that was presented.

Kollenborn's statement "Historians, I am sure, would appreciate an opportunity to see the original handwritten manifest for the ship Obler and Captain Exter’s ship’s declaration. It is doubtful these documents were typed or set in type originally"is right on the money.

Novice
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Bill's Score Card

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

We are not keeping score here. This is a free exchange of "facts". ideas and research. We are all trying to reach a common goal or conclusion.
In the process we will offer opposing theories and hope that someone comes up with a fact which will stick.

Glad you are enjoying the give (mostly) and take. No one is wrong here.

Respectfully,

Joe
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Post by novice »

Joe,

Regarding Martin Stephan and the Lutheran Immigration; Using Daniel Boone's expression; I'm sure we're "sucking a dry cow." The book I read was called "Except the Corn Die" which was a historical novel based on the 2 books you mentioned previously. I'm sure Stephan wasn't married and it wasn't even clear to the author whether it was actual adultery or the fact that the girls involved had such puritan beliefs that they may have thought that inappropriate touching constituted adultery. (It was 1839)

I certainly agree that the information for the manifest was probably gathered in Bremen and the form shown in Corbin on Page 9 would have been filled out in New Orleans (The form even notes the number who died during the crossing).

Perhaps I should be reframing my original question from when I started my search. Can the manifest as presented by Corbin be determined to be authentic? I have certainly not been able to do this.

Now the question might become; Are there some seeds of authenticity within the information presented by Corbin? If we could find the ship Olbers leaving Bremen on October 1st, 1838, I would certainly consider that a seed, but that would still not erase all of the other apparently incorrect information that appears in the manifest.

I found it interesting to reread Tom Kollenborn's article "The Latest Facts About Jacob Waltz" on the LDM home page. We may be looking at some of the roots for Corbin's manifest, the Olbers, Horb and the New Orleans Port of Arrival. Tom certainly wasn't involved with the manifest but these kinds of items were probably common knowledge within the LDM?

I do want to give Helen credit regarding the way she presented a lot of the information in it's original form when she had it. The Petrasch ship manifest is a great example (Page 123). I suspect that if she had the image of the Olber's manifest she would have used that instead of the typewritten document that was presented.

Kollenborn's statement "Historians, I am sure, would appreciate an opportunity to see the original handwritten manifest for the ship Obler and Captain Exter’s ship’s declaration. It is doubtful these documents were typed or set in type originally" is right on the money.

Novice
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Das Twist

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

Here is an interesting twist:

"The actual story of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Walzer starts with his entry into the United States at New York in 1862." Barney Barnard and Charles Frederick Higham. "True Story of Jacob Walzer....."

Why is that interesting? On July 16, 1861 a Jacob Walzer arrived in New York aboard the New Orleans. He was from Baden, Germany and was 52 years old. Dates and "facts" aside, how easy would it be to mix the ship New Orleans with the port?

Barnard/Higham again: "Jacob Walzer was 52 years of age when he landed in New York City....".

Funny how life sometimes mirrors fiction or, is it possible that it's the other way around? :)

I happen to know that Tom Kollenborn keeps tabs on the LDM Forum, and have it on good authority that he was the source for Corbin's manifest. :wink:
Perhaps he will make a comment, or already has. 8O

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon May 09, 2005 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Changes

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Small edit on my last post.

Respectfully,

Joe
Jesse J. Feldman
Part Timer
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
Location: Superstition Mts. Az.

Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

Joe,

It has been said, Jacob and his partner was in American states and territories early on chasing opportunity only to find things were not developed enough for wealth to be obtained. The U.S. had many issues to hammer out before its people could reap benefits. It is said Jacob then saw opportunity elsewhere, rumored Australia. We know he was here in the early 60s, but for the first time? I don't believe. I assure you if any of that is true, he associated with people he met earlier. A helpful foot in the door. What may be missing is a ships manifest leaving San Francisco off to Australia. If there is any supportive evidence let me know. Just a thought that may be obviously discredited, but as you know the J.W. Legend has many facets that are usualy never completely uncovered.

This may explain why there are two entries into the U.S. Both may be correct.

Respectfully,

Jesse
Roger
Part Timer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm

Jacob Waltz's Arrival In the U.S.

Post by Roger »

In his book, "True Story of Jacob Walzer and his Famous Hidden Gold Mine", Frederick Highham states that Jacob arrived in the U.S. via New York in 1862. Besides not having Jake's last name spelled right, he was probably not correct on the arrival facts also.

Jacob Waltz applied for citizenship in New Orleans in 1848 and was granted citizenship in California in 1861. Makes it a little hard to arrive in 1862 and get all these things done before you arrive.

Roger
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

Helen,s list

Post by bill711 »

Jooooo; Man you better say something??? You are cornered, it looks like.. are you goina sqeal??? Bill 8)
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Olbers

Post by novice »

I can't keep up with you guys!

Joe,

I thought you were only remarking about how easy it is to get things mixed up, not that Higham's Jacob Waltzer was our Jacob?

Also, as I read Tom's article, it doesn't make any sense to me that he was involved with the manifest? Did you reread his article and what am I missing?

Jesse,

I had never heard of any Australian or for that matter any foreign immigration for Waltz and a partner after his arrival in the U. S.? Do you remember the source?

Roger,

I'm with you on the 1848 declaration and the 1861 certificate but I guess I had never considered the possibility that Jacob might have arrived twice. Seems like an awful long shot but I guess strange things do happen?

Bill,

Not leaving you out! Perhaps you can share some information with us on the Rune Stone?

Novice
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

Helen,s List

Post by bill711 »

Novice; I am tooo confuuused to think right now. WE got the Jake coming in at New Orleans,in 1839-in New york in 1861-being made a citazine in cal. in 1849-Jesse has the Jake coming and going to us-to austral-back to u.s. NOW I am confused I need you to straighten these boys out first. I will watch you work, Maybe I,ll learn sompin. :lol: Bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Read It Like I Wrote It.

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

I will let my post stand as written. I don't believe it needs explaining.

The information Jesse is talking about can be found in Barney Barnard's book.

Roger,

Actually, Waltz applied for citizenship in Natchez, Mississippi but that's pretty close to New Orleans. :wink:

The real question here, is when and where did Jacob Walzer apply for citizenship? :)

Just how many false documents, stories and maps do you suppose have been accepted as "factual" in regards to the Lost Dutchman Mine and Jacob Waltz? Will the real Jacob Waltz please step forward.

Barnard/Higham were closer to a correct date of entry for Jacob Walzer
than anyone can document for Jacob Waltz, at least until Corbin's manifest can be authenticated.

"In his book, "True Story of Jacob Walzer and his Famous Hidden Gold Mine", Frederick Highham states that Jacob arrived in the U.S. via New York in 1862. Besides not having Jake's last name spelled right, he was probably not correct on the arrival facts also."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The actual story of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Walzer starts with his entry into the United States at New York in 1862." Barney Barnard and Charles Frederick Higham. "True Story of Jacob Walzer....."

"Why is that interesting? On July 16, 1861 a Jacob Waltzer arrived in New York aboard the New Orleans. He was from Baden, Germany and was 52 years old. Dates and "facts" aside, how easy would it be to mix the ship New Orleans with the port?"

The above, highlighted, information is factual, not opinion. The underlined portion is opinion.
Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

Helen,s List

Post by bill711 »

Well I don,t know Joe; that wasn,t a squeal but did I hear a small oink?? :lol: bill 8)
redison
Part Timer
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:29 pm

Ships Manifest

Post by redison »

novice wrote:
Also, as I read Tom's article, it doesn't make any sense to me that he was involved with the manifest? Did you reread his article and what am I missing?

Novice
You might all do well to consider that Helen Corbin’s source for this document (Ships Manifest) and for the Draft Warrant are one and the same, and it is NOT Tom K. This source has been right under your noses making regular posts on here for quite a long time. It is curious that he has not come foreword and fessed-up long before now. He could answer a lot of questions about both of these documents if he chose to do so. His name is slowly leaking out of the inner circles and filtering down to us Peons, so it won’t be long before everyone knows it and there will be nothing more for him to hide. Maybe then we will get to the root of both stories.

redison
redison
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Good Authority?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Redison and Novice,

Are you saying that my "good authority" ain't so good? :lol:

===============================================

S.C.,

What do you think?

Respectfully,

Joe
bill711
Expert
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:47 am

Helen,s List

Post by bill711 »

Well Joe; I don,t know??? 8O bill 8)
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Me To

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

I know the feeling.

Respectfully,

Joe
novice
Expert
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Jacob Walzer

Post by novice »

Joe,

Please pardon my persistence. I just feel like I'm having to read between the lines and make a lot of assumptions as to your meaning that I am not comfortable making. (Jacob Walzer is not a character that I have spent any time considering.)

You wrote " Just how many false documents, stories and maps do you suppose have been accepted as "factual" in regards to the Lost Dutchman Mine and Jacob Waltz? Will the real Jacob Waltz please step forward."

Do you feel that Jacob Walzer is the true Jacob of LDM fame?

I'm sure your not suggesting they are the same person (arriving twice) because you wrote, "The real question here, is when and where did Jacob Walzer apply for citizenship?"

A simple yes or no to the questions would be helpful, but I would be appreciative if you could share more of the why?

I did find your Jacob Walzer in "Germans to America, 1850-1874" with my subscription to Genealogy.com. I suspect our sources are different because the Genealogy.com reference did not include the Baden information but simply that he was from Germany. Walzer was a farmer and the Ship New Orleans was sailing from Havre, France.

I do know that Barnard is spoken of rather highly by a lot of people. I don't have access to his writings so I understand I'm coming at this from a disadvantage.

A sidebar; You wrote "Barnard/Higham were closer to a correct date of entry for Jacob Walzer than anyone can document for Jacob Waltz."

If we take Waltz's declaration in Natchez in 1848 and read the years stated, that Waltz had been in the country, as Nine. (I BELIEVE IT SAYS NINE YEARS. my opinion only), we have a well documented "public" source for an arrival date of 1839. I have no idea what kind of footnotes or references that Barnard/Higham provided in their writing. I have not considered that this public document may have been planted?

Redison,

If you are indeed on the right track, your solution is by far the simpliest and then we can all move on, to hopfully more productive pursuits.

Novice
S.C.
Part Timer
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon May 20, 2002 10:45 am

Post by S.C. »

Gentlemen,

The present discussion has been quite interesting. However, I think that we should look at the evidence and documents themselves - and to confine comments to them - rather than authors or individuals. (I believe someone said something similar to that before here on the forum. And, I have to agree.)

We must remember much information in the Dutchman world is shared by many. Sometimes it is pointless to single out particular individuals to critique. The bottom line is the "evidence" or supposition presented that should be looked at.

S.C.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Clarity

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

I believe a good deal of LDM "facts" and "evidence" has been "made-up",
just to sell books and bolster egos.

It is possible that Jacob Walzer, shortened his name to Waltz. It is also possible that Barnard/Higham were correct. It does not seem likely, but it's possible.

One LDM story has Jacob Walzer arriving, with real documentation for time and place. If Corbin's manifest can be authenticated, there will be two. How did Barnard/Higham come up with the information on Walzer? That would have taken some real detective work in that era.

What is the "grain" of truth in their story? That's not something I can supply. It seems sure that they did not make up the story out of "whole cloth". I have a "legitamate" copy of the New York manifest showing the arrival of Jacob Walzer on the "New Orleans". I am unable to find one for the Helen Corbin "Olbers". 8O

The time for the Olbers passage, as noted on the manifest, makes it suspect. The fact that we cannot independently verify the manifest also makes it suspect.

The document you speak of is not an "official" document for entry into this country. It only has Waltz for confirmation, and the date is questionable.

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon May 09, 2005 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dutch elm disease
Part Timer
Posts: 241
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm

name

Post by dutch elm disease »

its interesting how many names this "guy " has...waltz, walzer, walts, von walzer...ive even read a pamphlet where he was named jan walts baron of hanover.it seems odd that barnard would continue calling him walzer when he was obviously well aware that most knew him as waltz. i cant see how the error could be phonetic....maybe theres another reason,i can think of one but then id be guilty of making assumptions too....and that would never do... :lol:
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Just Kidding!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

S.C.,

Just trying to find out who's who in the zoo. Mr. Kollenborn's name was brought into the conversation by someone else. There are a number of new members who join the conversation with a great deal of familiarity.
They seem to know the LDM players quite well.

My statement was designed to elicit the responses that Redison and Novice made. Just gives me a better idea where the "newbies" are coming from.

I have no doubt that you, nine times out of ten, are one of the few people who know the real facts here. Thank you for responding.

If the source of the manifest is so well known, why isn't anyone willing to come up with the name? Having a pretty good idea who the source of the "warrant" is does not mean I have a clue who supplied the manifest.

Just kidding around here, hoping someone will slip with a clue so I can start digging out the LDM next week. :lol: Peter kind of has me pegged on that one. :)

Mr. Kollenborn,

My apologies. No real bad intentions on my part, but I can see where you might take it that way.

I have no idea who the source of Helen Corbin's manifest is, unless it's the same person who supplied the warrant, and that's just a guess.

Respectfully,

Joe
Post Reply