Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

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novice
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Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

Post by novice »

When I first purchased Corbin's "The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz" I was amazed and excited to see a lot of new information on a man who had been dead for well over a hundred years. All in one place we had the ship Jacob arrived on (Olbers), the town he immigrated from (Horb), the date he arrived (Nov. 17, 1839), where he arrived (New Orleans), the association with a family named Schmidt (his sister married a Schmidt and they lived in the Kansas Missouri area), and a childhood friend (Jacob Weiss) who was later introduced to the stories surrounding the Lost Dutchman mine. And that was only the beginning, considering the diaries.

When I first saw the information I thought; How much trouble can it be to identify Jacob's sister? I tried to research some of the information and kept coming up empty. The first thing that raised a red flag was Helen's implication that the Immigration Ship Transcribers Guild had transcribed the Olber manifest that appeared in her book. It was nowhere to be found and it didn't seem likely that they (ISTG) had just forgot to post the information if it was complete.

I decided to check where the information for Ship Manifests resided. I found that the ISTG and Ancestry.com were both using the National Archive Microfilms for passenger arrivals that were filmed in about 1958. I checked and found that these films were at a local library.

There are two conventional sources used to generate these passenger lists. Example, for arrivals in New Orleans;

1. Passenger Lists of Vessels Arriving at New Orleans 1820-1902 (National Archives Microfilm Publications) (Microcopy No. 259).

2. Quarterly Abstract of Passenger List of Vessels Arriving at New Orleans 1820-1875 (National Archives Microfilm Publications) (Microcopy No. 272)

My wife and I went to the library and spent several hours looking through these microfilms.

There is no passenger list for the Ship Olbers on the National Archives Microcopy No. 259 (Passenger List of Vessels Arriving at New Orleans 1820-1902) Roll 19 which covers the time period August 1, 1839 until January 30, 1840.

There is no passenger list for the Ship Olbers on the National Archives Microcopy No. 272 (Quarterly Abstract of Passenger List of Vessels Arriving at New Orleans 1820-1875) Roll 2 which covers the time periods January 2, 1838 until September 30, 1845. (The Quarterly Abstracts are missing for the complete year of 1839.)

The records for arrivals in New Orleans appear to be complete. I saw nothing to lead me to suspect that there were missing sheets. The chance of the complete passenger list being lost for a large ship like the Olbers would be "very" unlikely.

During the research I gained a better understanding of the documents and their content. I have several additional observations that cast additional doubt on the Manifest as presented in Corbin, but the post is already long.

I suspect someone within the LDM community has already done the same research but for one reason or another has chosen to remain silent. Since I have never met any of the players, I can perhaps speak more freely.

I am very disappointed and I fear that a lot of other items are starting to unravel. I'm sure that Helen Corbin is probably just the messenger.

Novice

Joe Ribaudo
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Looking In All The Right Places

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

That's another fine piece of work.

When using Corbin's book, it helps if you take into consideration one of the first statements she makes. Page 2: "Newsman Sims Ely's book
The Lost Dutchman Mine, published in 1953, was the first book on the subject." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)

I looked into some of that history myself, not to the extent that you have, and will say a little more later. No time right now.

Respectfully,

Joe

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A Little More

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

It would seem that the Olbers made one trip to New Orleans in 1839. The ship arrived on 1-20-1839. The ship's manifest looks nothing like what is shown in Corbin's book. There is no Jacob Waltz or Jacob Weiss.
For that matter, the entire list is different. The entire thing seems to be a fabrication.

Another interesting "fact", is that we have been told there are no records of Jacob Waltz or Jacob Weiss serving in the Civil War. There were 14 men named Jacob Waltz who served in the Union Army. There were 10 Jacob Weiss's. Have each of those 24 men been researched to rule them out as being the two of interest?

There is one combination of Waltz/Weiss, who joined in Pennsylvania just eight days apart. Did they meet in the Army?

Never trust new "facts". Find out for yourself, if you are really interested.

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed May 04, 2005 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joe Ribaudo
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One Of Five

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

The Olbers was one of five ships that were chartered in 1938 by a group of Saxon Lutherans who broke away from the church in Germany, came to the U.S. and, mostly, settled in Missouri.

One of the ships was lost at sea, and sank with all hands.

Helen Corbin states on page 10, that "The manifest provided by the international Ship Transcriber's Guild shows Jacob Waltz and Jacob C. Weiss on the ship Olbers." It would be interesting to know if anyone else has had contact with that organization.

The records for the Olbers seem to be readily available, and I can find no mention of them making port in New Orleans in November of 1839. That does not mean it did not happen.

Some time ago I found a Jacob Waltz who arrived in New York on
July 13, 1839. Place of origin was Wurtember and the ship was,
Ship Ville De Lyon. What convinced me that this was our boy, was the age, which was listed as 28.

Respectfully,

Joe

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Helen,s List

Post by bill711 »

WELL JOE; Tuh-Huh! :lol: Bill 8)

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Post by Thomas Glover »

We may or we may not someday know Waltz’s port of immigration and the details. Corbin has provided one possibility, but it seems possibly to be in error. If it is incorrect, the source of the error, its possible purpose (if any) and whether or not it was intentional are interesting questions. All purported or proffered possibilities of Waltz’s immigration have difficulties. The ones of which I know are (alphabetically) Baltimore, New Orleans and New York.

Re: Baltimore I have had the good fortune to go back to Maryland and speak with one of the keepers of the Baltimore City Lists for immigrants in the 19th Century. The City Lists were official lists of immigrants; from September 1833 to June 1866 shipmasters were required to submit copies of their passenger lists to the Mayor of Baltimore. There are some gaps in these records (as in most records), but for the period in question, late 1830s, the lists seem intact. There is no Jacob Waltz listed.

New Orleans has been a favorite possible port of entry for Waltz for many for some years now, but there was no “proof” or documentation. The “Corbin list” seemed to provide not only the documentation that Waltz had entered via New Orleans, but it also seemed to wrap up several loose ends – such as Wiesser. Now that list seems suspect and who knows about the related facets.

New York has seemed too far north for a man whose first documentation seems to be his application for citizenship in Mississippi in 1848. The Ville De Lyon Jacob Waltz has also been checked into by several over the years and is possibility, but the years don’t match exactly. On the Ville De Lyon list Waltz is listed as 28 years old in 1839. This would make his year of birth 1811. Many who have searched for Waltz have doggedly ignored the fact that Waltz always made his birth year 1810. This 1810 date is a great inconvenience to researchers, for there are far more Jacob Waltzes in Wurttemburg in 1808, 1809 and 1811 than in 1810. So many discount Waltz’s own statements. In the Phoenix Pioneer Cemetery the new marker for Watlz’s grave lists his birth year as 1808, others go for 1811 because the data they have fits that date. Until we at least know Waltz’s birth month the New York entry is just another possibility that almost fits.

In the end this bit of the puzzle may be solved, it may not as many records have not survived and others never existed.

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Post by bill711 »

WELL He could have come in thru mexico or galveston like some others. Knowing Waltz he probley worked as a deck hand and got paid for coming to america. Just possibilities folk,s. HERE,s the problem WE do not know if some idiot messed with the records or changed them or what in their hunt for him. There has been so many lies and deceit and destuction of the markings and the monument,s in the sup,s and the adding of monument,s too. 8O bill 8)

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Post by Wiz »

Thomas Glover wrote: The Ville De Lyon Jacob Waltz has also been checked into by several over the years and is possibility, but the years don’t match exactly. On the Ville De Lyon list Waltz is listed as 28 years old in 1839.
...Until we at least know Waltz’s birth month the New York entry is just another possibility that almost fits.
Add to that the fact that there's only one day between being 28 and 29. Without knowing Waltz's actual birth date, any of the scenarios are possible.

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"We may or we may not"

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Thomas,

That's probably a pretty good way to start any conversation concerning the LDM and it's major players.

While the manifests seem to be complete and accurate records, the Ship Ville De Lyon's records can't always be found, depending on where you are looking.

The Olbers Germans are appealing in the LDM legend, because of where they settled. That area fits the current flow of evidence.

Corbin "may or may not" be correct. If she relied on someone else to "birddog" the manifests for her. It would be a simple thing to create a hoax, as the "copy" in her book "may or may not" be. The wording of our posts here, is important, because it attacks or questions the "facts" rather then the author.

I have no vested interest in the Corbin book, or the woman, but she has some outstanding sources. While a lot of the book, has nothing to do with the LDM, I appreciate the romp through the history of the State and the pioneers of the period.

Your book remains the real "Bible" on the subject. This printing is much better than the first, as you mention Chuck. :) No "Bible" on the LDM should be considered complete without my uncle's name somewhere in the pages. :wink: My thank's, again.

From a historical point, it would be nice to trace Waltz from birth to death, and that may have been done pretty well already, but from the aspect of finding the LDM mine, it matters little. There were a great many Jacob Waltz's in the United States in the 1800s, and that makes it a little difficult to pin him down. Same story for Jacob Weiss.

I have read a great many books on the subject, but I could make do with just reading Ely and Glover.

Wiz,

Good point!

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Thu May 05, 2005 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Thomas Glover »

Wiz,

Sorry, I don’t quite get it.

When you say: "... there's only one day between being 28 and 29." How do you mean that as it applies to the discussion?

Respectfully,

Thomas

Roger
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Immigration Ships Transcriber Guild

Post by Roger »

Here is the web site for the Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild that should hold the information on the Olbers ship passenger manifest for its Nov 17, 1839, docking in New Orleans. There is a 14 day free membership to the Guild

http://www.immigrantships.net/

Happy Hunting!

Roger

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Das Site

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

I have been on the site, and found the information concerning the Olbers
some time ago.

"It would seem that the Olbers made one trip to New Orleans in 1839. The ship arrived on 1-20-1839. The ship's manifest looks nothing like what is shown in Corbin's book. There is no Jacob Waltz or Jacob Weiss.
For that matter, the entire list is different. The entire thing seems to be a fabrication."

Respectfully,

Joe

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How Far Is Too Far?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Thomas,

You Said:

"New York has seemed too far north for a man whose first documentation seems to be his application for citizenship in Mississippi in 1848. The Ville De Lyon Jacob Waltz has also been checked into by several over the years and is possibility, but the years don’t match exactly. On the Ville De Lyon list Waltz is listed as 28 years old in 1839. This would make his year of birth 1811. Many who have searched for Waltz have doggedly ignored the fact that Waltz always made his birth year 1810. This 1810 date is a great inconvenience to researchers, for there are far more Jacob Waltzes in Wurttemburg in 1808, 1809 and 1811 than in 1810. So many discount Waltz’s own statements. In the Phoenix Pioneer Cemetery the new marker for Watlz’s grave lists his birth year as 1808, others go for 1811 because the data they have fits that date. Until we at least know Waltz’s birth month the New York entry is just another possibility that almost fits."

If Waltz came into the U.S. in 1838 or 1839, how far is "too far" for him to travel in nine or ten years? Was it more than the distance Waltz made in the years of 1849 and 1850?

While the New York entry "almost fits", is there a documented entry for a Jacob Waltz that is a better fit? It seems to me, that until something better comes along, we are forced to say "that's our boy".
In archaeology, accepted "fact" is never stated as absolute. The reason for that is, because the next turn of a spade may change "history". In this case, it's the next hidden document that is found, which will change our "facts".

At this point, I believe the New York Waltz is our "perp". If the facts of his arrival in New Orleans don't fit, "you must acquit". Sorry, just couldn't resist that. :lol:

"others go for 1811 because the data they have fits that date."

Most of the conclusions we reach in LDM research are because something just "fits". Here we have a document from a neutral, reliable source.

Respectfully,

Joe

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Corbin,s list

Post by bill711 »

WELL BOY,S can anyone trumph Joe,s king??? 8O Any jokers out there? :lol: bill 8)

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How Old?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

If Jacob Waltz listed his age as 70 in the 1880 census, it could mean he was born in 1810, but what if he actually said he was 70 at his "last birthday prior to June 1, 1880"? If that birthday was in 1879 he would have been born in 1809.

What Wiz was trying to say, I believe, was that Waltz could have been seventy years old on June 1, 1880 and turned 71 on June 2, 1880. With the documentation we have, Waltz could have been born in 1809 or 1810.

It helps to take a closer look at the actual document.

Respectfully,

Joe

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Post by Wiz »

Thomas Glover wrote:Wiz,
When you say: "... there's only one day between being 28 and 29." How do you mean that as it applies to the discussion?
Dr. G,
Much as I hate agreeing with Joe on anything, he is correct as to my meaning. Waltz could have turned 29 the following week, which would put his birth back in 1810. But at the time of the document, he would indeed have still been 28. You made the statement: "On the Ville De Lyon list Waltz is listed as 28 years old in 1839. This would make his year of birth 1811". I was only suggesting that this is not necessarily the case.

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On The Right Side

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wiz,

"Much as I hate agreeing with Joe on anything, he is correct as to my meaning."

It's always nice to be right, and it happens so often. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe

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Post by Thomas Glover »

Wiz and Joe,

Thank you, I understand your point. However, the idea that Waltz was born in 1810 not 1811 or 1809 or 1808 derives not from one document, such as the 1870 census, but from several. In the special census of 1864 Waltz listed his age as 54, and there are the Great Registers which (where age is given) all indicate a birth year of 1810.

Concerning the possibility of Waltz turning 29 the following week (or month(s)) I fully appreciate that possibility. However, until I have better evidence I must go with what Waltz said, and that data puts the birth year at 1810. The ship in question docked in July, the seventh month of the year, and that means the year was more than half over. If it had docked at the beginning of the year, say February, that would be a different matter - but it didn’t. Thus, for me I must go with what the records show until I have better data. For that we need Waltz’s birth date, and not just any Jacob Waltz, but our Jacob Waltz. I have seen more than one genealogy of or family that claimed our Jacob Waltz as theirs. But, in each instance the data falls apart on scrutiny. We may never be able to pin down Waltz’s birth date, or we may get lucky!

Respectfully,

Thomas

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Waltz's Birth Date

Post by novice »

One of the things I'm not clear about on the passenger list is what the age of the immigrant really represents? I don't think it is necessarily the age on arrival at the U. S. Port (Probably not). Much of the information was collected where the immigrant boarded the ship (in our case Havre, France). Name, Origin, etc. If this were the case it would push the age back until at least until around the 1st of June and probably even further. From other stories I have read, the immigrants began gathering at their port of departure, in some cases, weeks before the ship actually sailed. The ship's company would begin collecting fares and I suspect also the personal information that ended up on the ship's manifest.

I hope I'm not trying to "force" something to fit the pre June 1810 birth date indicated by the Census, but I think some of the reasoning may be valid.

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Post by bill711 »

Tom; Atta Boy get em! You boys try and shake that offa your feet!!!!WHEWIEEEE!! :lol: bill 8)

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Post by novice »

I have only been working with the Immigrant Ship Transcribers Guild (ISTG) site for a couple of months but the ship passenger lists transcribed by the volunteers are free. They state that they have completed over 6500 transcriptions. I think the trial subscription that Roger referred to may have been an Ancestry.com ad on the site which provides a 14 day trial subscription to their databases. Anyone should be able to search the ISTG site.

http://www.immigrantships.net/

Roger,

I have read many of your posts and I know you do a lot of research on your own. I couldn't help but get the feeling from your post above that you had seen the Corbin manifest on the ISTG Site sometime in the past.

Since the ISTG site search engine doesn't appear to pick up this particular Olbers any longer, could you share when you saw it? If I'm reading something wrong into your post, please let me know!

Of course the question that begs for an answer is why we can no longer find it. The obvious answer is that for one reason or another it was removed from the site?

Novice

Joe Ribaudo
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OR

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

Or, it was never there to begin with.

Respectfully,

Joe

Roger
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Ship Oblers

Post by Roger »

Novice (don't accept that you are a novice at LDM history):

No, I have not seen the actual Oblers manifest that Helen Corbin has in her book. I would think that some of the Forum members that live in Phoenix would be able to contact her and see if she can provide more detail on how she came by the Oblers manifest. Seems like an easy task. I have met her and Bob Corbin several times and they appear to be very open in sharing this type data. Greg Davis could answer this question very quickly.

Some more details on the Ship Oblers. There were 4 Bremen ships launched under the name Oblers with the first on Oct 1, 1838 and the last on July 19, 1880. The earlier named ships either stranded, sunk, or were sold off and replaced by newer ships. Here is the web site where you can see paintings of the various versions of the Oblers:

http://www.geocities.com/mppraetorius/

Once at this site, click on the letter "O" at the top of the page and then click on the first Oblers name on the list. The paintings and some bio on each ship will come up.

Here is the text on the 1838 Oblers which could have well been the one that Jacob Waltz came to America on:

"The Bremen ship OLBERS was built at Vegesack/Grohn by Johann Lange for the Bremen firm of F. & E. Delius, and was launched on 1 October 1838. H. W. Exter, of Bremen, was her master for her entire career under the Bremen flag. Her maiden voyage was to New Orleans; among the passengers on this voyage were the "Old Lutheran" pastor Martin Stephan, from Dresden, and approximately 200 of his followers, who later settled in Perry County, Missouri [see, inter alia, Walter O. Forster, Zion on the Mississippi: The Settlement of the Saxon Lutherans in Missouri, 1839-1841 (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1953)]. From 1838 to 1848, the OLBERS sailed exclusively between Bremen and North American ports. However, in August 1848, she arrived at Bordeaux, where she stranded entering the Garonne, breaking her keel. She then passed into French hands and was renamed first PERUANA, then, in 1849, after being purchased by the Bordeaux firm of Civrac ainé, ASTRONOME (probably an indication that the firm had some knowledge of Olbers and his contributions to astronomy). In 1853, the vessel was purchased by the Bordeaux firm of Ste. Aure Couperie, which owned her until at least 1856. Her masters under the French flag were F. Giteau and J. Dumoulin. "

It is interesting to note that this ship arrived in New Orleans and carried Luthern Germans on its first voyage that settled in Perry County, Missouri, which is in the SW corner of the state. Jog the memory on Waltz having a sister in Missouri that he supposedly sent money to later on. Wonder if his sister could have been on the maiden voyage of the Oblers and Waltz followed on a later sailing the next year to New Orleans also?

The actual manifests are the only way to verify all of this.

Roger

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Post by bill711 »

TO ALL; I think that Tommy K. or Bobby C. Made a trip to walzland Germany to inquire about the Jake. I remember that this 1810 is the date that the MAYOR looked up for the JACOB. We,ll meet tomorrow sat. afternoon and discuss this some more.. Bill 8)

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Problems

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

There were no Waltz's on the Olbers trip that made port in New Orleans on January 20, 1839.

What we need here is any document showing that the Olbers landed in New Orleans on November 17, 1839 or even left Bremen on October 1, 1839.

There were five ships named Olbers. All were used as "Immigrant Ships".
Only two are of interest in this topic.

The first is a Russian frigate named "ALEXANDER PETION, built in Archangelsk, Russia, year not given, although she was considered 'old' when she arrived in Bremen in 1829". This ship was renamed OLBERS IN 1830. She did make port in New Orleans in 1836.

The second ship is Captain Exter's Olbers. Olbers was a brand new ship and made her first crossing in, around, 68 days. Two different, 11/13/38 & 11/18/38, dates can be found for her departure. That was about the average speed of the three other ships that completed the (chartered) trip.

The copy of the "document" in Helen Corbin's book shows that the passage was made in 47 days. There were 205 passengers. On her maiden voyage she made the trip in 68 days with 181 passengers. :?

Respectfully,

Joe

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