CORBINS THE CURSE OF THE Dutchman gold

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
dutchman49
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CORBINS THE CURSE OF THE Dutchman gold

Post by dutchman49 »

Hi .I have been reading the form for past 2 years and it has been great. For the past 9 years the area that I have been looking at has most of the clues . Clues to the mine????.Maybe not,that is all the clues that are written and have been discused in the form may describe two different places.THE MINE and the large cache of gold near the camp. I THINK that waltz was trying to show HELENA and RHINEY this cache as he told the story of the mine and they mixed up all the clues. As for Dick Holmes,Waltz told him half truths so DICK would never find the mine. This leads me to a small question. ON page 50 of THE CURSEOF THE DUTCHMAN GOLD it reads '' JUST A FEW MILES FROM THE MINE WE FOUND WATER AND WE STOPPED THERE TO MAKE CAMP. THERE WAS WATER NEARER THE MINE AT THIS TIME OF YEAR.'' What is a few miles .More then 1 less then 2 or 3??????. maybe with this information ,I can get closer to the cache. Another clue and this is from observation at this site.THE THREE RED HILLS IS THE SOMBREo (one of the same) about 1 mile south of the mine. Dutchman49
Joe Ribaudo
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No Replies

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

49,

Welcome to the site.

I would have replied to your post, but I am already hoging all of the other topics. Over fifty of our members have read your post and had nothing to say, so you get me. :lol:

I don't really believe that Waltz gave Julia and Rhiney "clues", other than where to enter the mountains and what to look for. (landmarks) If all of the "clues" that have been written or spoken since the Dutchman died were true, the mine would have been found a hundred times.

In truth, whatever Waltz had in the mountains has probably been found a number of times. An interesting question to ask the members, would be:

What do you think Waltz found in the Superstitions? What do you think it looked like when he found it? I doubt they would all agree. Did he actually find an exposed vein? How deep was the shaft? Did it just follow the vein to the bottom? Was it studded with gold that could be worked with a miners pick?

The reason you have found so many of the clues in one area, is because they are found in many places in the mountains.

Good luck and take care.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
TGH
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Post by TGH »

D49
The water source Waltz refered to was most likely a permanent water source. He would have passed near it on his way to the workings, and it is indeed a few miles away from the mine area. There is water closer to the mine depending upon the season, but that is also true of most locations in the mountains.

The "three red hills" clue may refer to knolls or knobs rather than hills proper. They are indeed south of the mine area.

Hope this helps

Joe

You are correct. Many places fit some of the clues. One place fits all of the clues (at least the clues I beleive are valid).

Of course the above is my opinion and I may be wrong.

But I'm not.

TGH
Joe Ribaudo
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Valid Clues

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

TGH,

"You are correct. Many places fit some of the clues. One place fits all of the clues (at least the clues I beleive are valid)."

That does seem to be the rub here. There have been others, I am not at liberty to name them, who have shown me places where many of the clues can be found in one place.

I normally decline a visit to those places, because there are so many of them. Even the place you believe contains "all of the clues" needs a one-way reading of all of those clues. Many of them can be interpreted so as to arrive at a different conclusion.

I believe there is a reason why there are so many varied locations for many of the clues. The stories and maps were created, in place, after the fact.
I have no doubt this is true, because I know who the author of some of the maps and stories is.

I know you have a good deal of information that is not available to most Dutch Hunters. Guess what, many (most) of us are in the same position. :lol:

Keeping the research into the legends of the Superstition Mountains and the LDM a hobby has always been my intention. I have seen it work it's dark magic on many a good man.

Good luck and good hunting.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Thomas Glover
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Post by Thomas Glover »

A question, since one of the few things about Waltz and his trips to the mountains that seems to be documented is that he left in the late fall and returned in the spring, how do we know Waltz was referring to a permanent water source? If he was in the hills during the wet season how would he know if his water sources were permanent? I’ve seen White Rock Spring flowing great in the early spring, certainly looking like a permanent water, but bone dry in summer.
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Permanent Water?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Dr. Glover,

Last March we went to sleep with water running hard in the canyon we were camped in. When we woke up the next mornng there was no water.
True story, I have the pictures.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by Thomas Glover »

Joe,

I am not sure that the issue is an intermittent stream going dry. I dare say that most of us have seen something similar, if not as dramatic as you describe. I doubt that Waltz, who had spent some years in the desert, would mistake such a stream for a permanent source of water. There were (and are) a some places where springs kept/keep a stream flowing year round. These would be a contender for permanent water, also very deep pools, such as the one at the foot of the waterfall in Peter’s Canyon and of course a spring. But to know any of these had water year round one would have to see them in the summer would they not? Otherwise how would one know?

Respectfully,

Thomas
Joe Ribaudo
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Not A Drop To Drink

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Thomas,

The point was not how fast an "intermittent stream" can go dry, this was not a stream, rather how fast water in the Superstitions can go underground. The change over twelve hours was not due to the water drying up, rather it had to do with the source not supplying enough water to keep the flow on the surface. The same thing can happen to a spring.

I doubt Waltz spent much time in the Supe's between May and Sept., so the term "permanent" may not have referred to a "year round" water source, even though Waltz may have percieved it as such. Your point here is well taken.

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Tom,

There is a big difference in the mountains (as I am sure you are aware of)concerning water sources during the Fall and Spring season. Until the rains come it might as well be June or July in the mountains as far as how dry it is. I have been in-country during some November/Decembers and it has been as dry as a proverbial bone. Perhaps Waltz found a water source during a dry Fall period and assumed there was water year round...

TGH
Roger
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Superstition Water Sources

Post by Roger »

The Superstitions were a lot wetter in the late 1800's with a number of streams flowing year round due to higher rainfalls then. Also, the 1880's earthquake dried up a lot of springs that used to be permanenet.

The clue that Waltz's mine was "several miles" from their camp where there was permanent water is most likely terminology used to indicate "some distance" and not actual distance.

Just one person's thoughts.

Roger
dutchman49
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Post by dutchman49 »

:D GREAT I GOT A REPLY TO MY POST .THANK YOU ALL. SORRY ABOUT MY SPELLING ,BUT IT HAS BEEN A CURSE SINCE COLLEGE. I THINK THE TIME PERIOD MENTION IN CORBINS BOOK WAS THE RAINING SEASON "THERE WAS WATER NEARER THE MINE AT THIS TIME OF YEAR, WE KNEW, BUT IT WAS SAFER TO HAVE OUR CAMP SOME DISTANCE AWAY". AT THE POSSIBLE MINE SITE THERE IS WATER ONLY IN THE RAINING SEASON. I BEEN THERE IN THE SUMMER WITH MY DOG AND IT IS DRY AS A BONE,BUT THERE ARE SPRINGS SOME DISTANCE AWAY THAT I AM ASSUMING AT THAT TIME PERIOD WHERE PERMANT SPRINGS. THE SPRINGS ARE THE ONES REFERRED IN TODAY's topo maps. SINCE I HAVE ONE SPRING IN MIND, I WAS INTERESTED TO SEE WHAT THE FORUM IDEA WAS OF A FEW MILES AS DESCRIBE IN HELEN BOOK.FROM ALL THAT I READ ON THE FORUM THERE MUST BE OVER A DOZEN PLACES THE CLUES FIT. HOWEVER I AM STUCK WITH THIS ONE.BECAUSE WITH ALL THE CLUES, WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN ,AND ADDITIONAL LANDMARKS HAVE COME TOGETHER IN THESE 9 YEARS IT HAS BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO IGNORE. THERE WAS NEVER THE IDEA TO FIND THE MINE, BUT TRY TO PROVE AN INDIRECT WAY THAT IT DOES.IN TODAYS WORLD AND READING THE FOURM. SHOW ME THE MONEY IS THE ONLY WAY . THAT WHY I FEEL THE CACHE IS THE ONLY WAY. NEXT TRIP I WILL TRY THE LEDGE , IT IS NOT THAT EASY AND A LITTLE DANGEROUS IN MY TRIPS TO THE MOUNTAINS I HAVE USED ONLY THREE MAPS.THE STONE MAP ,THE PROFILE MAP AND A THIRD MAP.REMEMBER I AM A CITY BOY WHERE THE HIGHEST GROUND ELEVATION FROM SEA LEVEL IS 10 FEET. I USED THE TOPO MAP TOGETHER WITH THE STONE MAPS TO TRACE MY ROUTE INTO THE SUPER. TWO ASSUMPTIONS HADE TO BE MADE . FIRST THAT THE STONE MAPS ARE REAL. SECOUND THAT A PHYSICAL LANDMARK MUST DEFINE THE STARTING POINT.IT TURNS OUT THAT THE STARTING POINT FOR ME WAS AT THE MIDDLE WHERE COMETS PEAK IS THE COBOLLO. LOOK AT THE TOPO MAP AND YOU CAN SEE THE SHAPE OF AN ANIMAL. I KNOW THIS SOUNDS FAR FETCHED BUT WHY NOT. SOME YEARS LATER I READ THAT THE STONE MAPS WHERE FOUND AT BLACK POINT A SPOT VERY NEAR COMETS PEAK. A SMALL COINCIDENCE.MAY BE. JUST THE OTHER DAY ON THE FOURM IT WAS IMPLIED IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN THE STONE MAPS WHERE STOLEN AND LATER APPEARED IN ARIZONA. FOR THE MOMENT I WILL GO ON COINCIDENCE. ALL SAID AND DONE HERE IS ANOTHER CLUE THAT FITS AND IT IS BY OBSERVATION.A RIDGE APPEARS THE A SADDLE THEN ANOTHER SMALL RIDGE. AT THE SMALL RIDGE LOOK TO THE SOUTH AND THERE IS A PEAK WITH A HOLE.AT THE END OF THE RIDGE YOU LOOK DOWN .IT IS STRAIGHT DOWN. AT THE BOTTOM THERE IS A TRAIL. BECAUSE OF THE FUNNY SHAPE OF THE MOUNTAIN THE TWO LEDGES OR WHAT APPEARS TO BE, AT THE END OF THE RIDGE, CANNOT BE SEEN BY EACH OTHERS. BY TAPE MEASUREMENT 79 FEET APART. THERE IS A HOLE BETWEEN TNEM THAT A PERSON CAN GO THROUGH. THE MOUNTAINS FUNNY SHAPE...... THIS CLUE AT A LATER DATE OR MAYBE FOR THE ONES THAT FOUND THIS MINE ALREADY KNOW WHERE IT IS.... PS I LEFT THE TOOLS AT THIS SITE
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Errrr....if you were near the LDM mine site during the SUMMER with your dog, then my hats off to you. You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

And I thought I was nuts during some of my epic marches.....

TGH
walker12
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Post by walker12 »

How to tell a permanent water source in the desert? I assume by knowing your vegetation. For example, willows don't last long without near permanent moisture. Cottonwoods last longer but probably not more than a month or two depending on the time of the year.

As noted, what was a permanent spring could have changed over the years. For example, water tables could have dropped and trees that are growing now established themselves during wetter times. The roots were able to follow the falling water and the trees still survive even though the "spring" is now well underground. Still think though that an desert dweller experienced in finding water to stay alive would likely know a temporary from a permanent spring at a glance. Or at least think they knew the difference.
Wiz
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Re: Superstition Water Sources

Post by Wiz »

Roger wrote:The clue that Waltz's mine was "several miles" from their camp where there was permanent water is most likely terminology used to indicate "some distance" and not actual distance.
Roger,
That's a good point, and one which complicates (or possibly simplifies) the search considerably.

Take Joe Deering's chase after his mule: He noticed an old trail, and followed it for six or seven miles. But was it really that far? If you take it literally, things get complicated, since there are a limited supply of places in the Superstitions where you could follow a trail that far and not be completely out of the mountains.

However, if you consider that Deering hadn't initially intended to follow that trail, might not have had any water with him (since he was only chasing the mule), etc, etc, it may have just seemed like that far when in reality it was only two, three, maybe four miles. I've had that experience many times, as I'm sure everyone here has.

So, it's another case of interpreting the accuracy of the statements recorded without biasing your conclusion by force-fitting it into your own pet area. A tough thing to do!
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Walker

Excellent observation about vegetation/water.

Wiz

You make a good point. It has been pointed out to me that there are city "miles" (by which we measure all other distance) and "mountain" miles.

Try a mountain mile in 110 degree heat without any water. Wasnt the brightest thing I ever did...and the miles did indeed seem like 10 when they were closer to 3-4.

TGH
santos
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Post by santos »

faaaaaaaaaaart
Joe Ribaudo
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Miles

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

TGH and Wiz,

We have gone over this "distance traveled" subject before.

For us to compare our idea of distance traveled to someone from the 1800s is pretty difficult. If you walk or ride a horse through the mountains of Colorado or the deserts of Arizona, you get a pretty good idea of the TIME required to travel a known distance from one place to another.

If they did not know the distance, they used the time required to make the trip to estimate the miles. I imagine they were fairly accurate.

TGH,

Wiz's wit, :lol: displayed by the repitive "Blah" comment really seems to have impressed you. No doubt you also spend a great deal of time examining the mysteries found on the bottom of your own shoes. Tearing yourself away from that pastime must make it difficult for you to type these posts. :)

It's no wonder you are so amused by our attempts at repartee. :roll:

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Joe

Your point on time is well taken. Lets examine the Deering story using time instead of miles. He wakes up, follows his burro up a mountain, finds a trail, follows the trail 6-7 miles, discovers tunnels, workings etc. Notes landmarks, travels the 6-7 miles back to the point he found the burro, then trudges another 1-1 1/2 miles back to camp. So we are looking at a 15 mile hike, plus exploration time in late summer. If these suppositions are correct, could he have travelled the distance in 15 hours or so?

I was able to hike that distance (maybe a bit more) last spring in some heat. I hiked on a trail all the way, didnt stop for more than 30 mins the entire time and ran low on water. It took about 13-14 hours and I didnt go looking for tunnels and workings up and down cliff faces. I think Deering
only hiked 3-4 "mountain" miles onvce he picked up the trail.

TGH
Joe Ribaudo
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Long Hike

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

TGH,

It seems unlikely that Deering would have just kept trudging along (unprepared) for that much time, just one way, let alone knowing that he had to turn right around and hike back to his camp. If he did, he was a fool.

I am not as famiiar with this story as you are, but I don't remember hearing that Deering was looking for anything in particular, just exploring the trail. Was there some indication that he left the trail to do any searching? I don't remember that either.

You could be correct about the " 3-4 "mountain" miles", but I doubt it was Deering who made that error in the telling of the distance. It seems more likely that Chunning or Bark change the story just a tad. :), unless the LDM is on Superstition Peak.

It seems unlikely that Deering would have looked up or down any "cliff faces" unless a great deal more of the story was changed or left out.

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

The story states that Deering followed the trail to a tunnel. And that there were workings "above and over" that were pretty well filled in. This, along with statements by Chunning (and my own knowledge of the terrain) seem to indicate that the mine area was in rough, steep, terrain. And yes there were (and still are) a cliff or two present.

If Deering explored the area for say an hour (and he would have needed longer time IMHO), then the 6-7 mile hike probably doesnt hold up.

I used to think Deering entered the mountains in the Tortilla Creek area and ended up on Geronimo Head or Tortilla Mtn. In light of some new things I have learned, this no longer makes sense to me.

TGH
Joe Ribaudo
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New Heading?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

TGH,

I am somewhat shocked to hear you are contemplating another area. I was under the impression the evidence you had seen had locked you in there.

It would be interesting to hear what has given you this new heading. Must be good stuff. :)

Any exploration that includes clilff faces requires a lot of time. (slow going) "Above and over" could include cliffs, but you would think that would have been part of the telling. :?


Best of luck and good hunting.

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

Unhhhhhh.........

I didnt mean I was looking at a new area. I meant I thought Deering cut the trail in a different area than the one I first surmised. The LDM is still where I think it is, give or take a few hundred feet......
Joe Ribaudo
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I Seeee

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

TGH,

Sorry, I just read the whole thing and couldn't separate "entered the mountains" and "ended up on Geronimo Head or Tortilla Mountain" into two different topics in relation to "used to think" and "no longer makes sense to me". :)

So, does that mean you are still on Geronimo Head/Tortilla Mountain or that you are no longer starting from the "Tortilla Creek area"? :lol: I guess you may not want to answer that. 8O

When we first started going into the mountains, Chunning's rope ladders could still be found in places. Hard to believe that is something that Deering managed on his first trip. Does your trail require anything more than boots and hands?

Take care.

Respectfully,

Joe
TGH
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Post by TGH »

I have never been on Geronimo Head or Tortilla Mtn.

No rope ladders for us....just be mighty careful up there
Joe Ribaudo
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Thank You

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Thank's for the compliment. I can see, at least from your perspective, where you might consider me a "genius". :lol:

Of course, it has been obvious to everyone who TGH is. I was not speaking of that identity, but I can see where you would not be able to figure that out. :roll:

Why don't you tell us, what you can, about the draft we have been talking about.

Respectfully,

Joe
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