Julia Thomas Loan

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Julia Thomas Loan

Post by novice »

From the notes of Jim Bark (Page 172-173 – Corbin 2002), he indicated that Reiney Petrasch told him the story of an expensive Soda Fountain that Emil Thomas purchased (Abt 1889) and then skipped out leaving Julia with a lot of debts . Jacob Waltz paid her debts with gold and this story has become an additional link used to prove that Jacob did in fact have access to a lot of gold.

If we take Reiney's numbers, the soda fountain cost $2,500 and Emil Thomas must have paid the $500 down leaving a debt of $2,000. In addition Reiney said that Thomas owed an additional $1,700 in miscellaneous bills. Jake went over her books and squared away the $3,700 in debts.

From the Robert's manuscript (Page 128 – Corbin 2002), Jacob came up with 35 pounds of gold concentrate and paid off the Thomas debt the next day.

(Page 127 - Corbin 2002) Corbin mentions an expensive Artic soda fountain shipped from Chicago.

Does anyone know where the "Arctic Soda Fountain" reference comes from? I suspect that with a little reasearch, Corbin may have just thrown that in?

I was skeptical that that there was such a thing as a $2,500 Soda Fountain in 1890. I ran across this on the internet and thought some of you might find it Interesting.

I have paraphrased the following from the article. For the complete article use this link:

http://www.themooreexchange.com/moore/M ... ehurst.htm

"James Walker Tufts developed his own soda fountain apparatus and started the Arctic Soda Fountain Company. The Tufts soda fountains were made out of Italian marble, block tin, and heavy silver plate. In 1877 he published a catalog, offering soda fountains ranging in price form $2400 to $275. Most were elaborate, bearing multiple spigots, cherubs, figures of women or animals, plants and ferns, weathervanes, and towers. The catalog also offered other devices such as mineral waters, siphons, and beer attachments.

In 1891, Tufts manufacturing business consolidated with A.D. Puffer & Sons of Boston, John Matthews of New York, and Charles Lippincott of Philadelphia into American Soda Fountain Company. James W. Tufts was president."

The name was changed from Arctic to American Soda Fountain Company in 1891, so Corbin certainly had the Arctic name right!

I also ran across another web site from the Silver Scoop Creamery in Fairplay, Colorado that had photos of a restored Soda Fountain from about our time period.

http://www.silverscoopcreamery.com/page693053.htm

This is what they had to say.

"Americans in the late 1800's enjoyed exotic elixirs served from elegant soda fountains. The James W. Tufts Company manufactured the most exotic soda water apparatus for dispensing these potions (often containing alcohol, opium, and cocaine). The opulent CELTIC model fountain (manufactured in the 1890's), was composed of three types of marble, had 10 syrup flavor drawers, and weighed approximately 500 pounds. Silver-plated brass draught tubes dispensed carbonated water, root beer, and Vichy mineral water. The beverages were cooled in coils through a large ice-filled copper box in the fountain. The tin syrup drawers dispensed coffee, raspberry, ginger, chocolate, vanilla, lemon, sarsaparilla, pineapple, orange, and strawberry flavors. The simplest sodas were a splash of syrup in a glass of carbonated water. A restored CELTIC model fountain is the centerpiece of our turn-of-the-centruy soda fountain."

I now KNOW that there was such a thing, although I have no Idea why Emil Thomas would have thought he needed one in Phoenix in 1888/1890. It's still not clear to me what type of business he was running. Bakery, Ice Cream Parlor, Oyster House, Drug Store etc.?

This does give me "a bit of" additional confidence in the Julia Thomas Loan story.

Does anyone know what happened to Julia's business after Waltz's death? Did she just sell the fixtures and the business ceased to exist?

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Julia Thomas loan.

Post by Aurum »

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Wiz »

Hmmm..

This doesn't make it sound like Waltz had the close personal friendship with Julia that one would expect when one person gives another such an amount. Nor did Dr. Glover's research suggest to me that Julia was a warm, cuddly person that one would help out of pure kindness. But, if I remember correctly, Julia did suddenly come up with the money.

I wonder if there was something else involved. Could she have known something about Waltz and blackmailed him? She could have known details about, say, Weiser's murder; or some clue as to the location of the mine that she threatened to reveal; something of that nature that Waltz (if he was a drinker as some believe) may have let slip when drunk.

This is sheer speculation, of course, but interesting to think about. Probably pure fantasy, but I don't actually recall anyone suggesting blackmail before.

Say, Novice, you sure came on strong out of nowhere! Welcome to the forum, it's a pleasure reading your posts!
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How Much Gold?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

I believe that Waltz having some gold is pretty well established. Taking Rhiney's word for the gold being given to Julia, and assuming that Waltz was being truthful when he said; "....don't worry as I have fifty more of these buried around.", we have a pretty good idea of just how much. He was reffering to an oyster can containing $800. which was the first gold he gave her. (Bark notes)

If Waltz dug up the buried fifty cans, nothing was ever found in his yard, and placed them in the trunk that Holmes ended up with, that shows that he had a total of around $45,000.00, total in gold, around the time of his death.

Add to that, the $7,000.00 that he sent to his sister and you get a grand total of $52,000.00.

It seems to me, that the real question here is, would that be an unusual amount of gold for Waltz to have in his possession? Someone might want to do some math and see how many pounds of gold it would take to reach that number. I doubt he had 50 more cans buried in his yard, but I can understand why he might tell Julia that story.

Looking at the history of the man, what he did, where he was and it seems possible for the times. A hint of where that much gold could be accumlated can be found on pages: 164 and 165 in "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz...." by Dr. Glover.

Because of the newspaper adds, which name the "Arctic Soda Fountain" as one of the features of the business, Jim Bark's statement has always been accepted as fact. Your digging up the price of that fountain only adds weight to the overall truthfulness of the Bark story.

If there is this kind of verifiable detail in the story, to such a small matter, the rest is much easier to believe.

You have done a great deal of very fine work. Thank's for sharing it.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by novice »

Aurum

The next questions I was getting around to were:

Did he actually purchase the Artic Soda Fountain?

Did he purchase the top of the line Model?

In what year did he purchase it?

Does anyone see anything in the photo, that looks like a Soda Fountain?

How was he able to finance it?

Who did Julia have to pay back? and so on and so on.

I got back ten fold and you answered questions, I hadn't thought of yet. I had never heard of Steinegger or for that matter Caroline Thomas. I think your input pushes me nearer to the Forum consensus that Jacob did have gold. I need to chew on what you have given me.

Joe

My first exposure to the LDM was the Robert Blair Book published in about 1975. I reread it a couple of weeks ago and of course Blair concluded that Jacob was a poor old man with no gold. Blair was working with a lot of the same material we have today and his work was pretty well documented. I haven't made up my mind yet but I must admit that a lot of what I'm seeing that is documentable seems to support a good case for the opposite viewpoint (That he had gold and quite a bit of it)

I will continue to try and sift through the information. You must remember that I haven't received either of Dr. Glover's books yet, so I am at a big disadvantage.

Thanks Again

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Disadvantage?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

If you are at a "disadvantage", you will be hell on wheels when you get Dr. Glover's book. :lol:

Sept. 21, 1863 Jacob Waltz with four other men filed five mining claims titled the "Gross Lode" in the Pioneer District, Yavapai County, AZ.

Sept. 10, 1864 they refile on the same claim. Something kept them there for at least a year.

Sept. 14, 1864 Waltz files on the "Big Rebel" mining claim with two partners.

Dec. 27, 1865 Waltz, without partners files a claim called the "General Grant".

in 1870, Waltz is living on 160 acres in Phoenix, has three structures on the land and there are nine Mexicans living there.

You wil find all of the above information in Dr. Glover's book.

All of that has nothing to do with the possibility that he also had fifty thousand dollars in gold laying around the homestead, or perhaps it does.

I would say that he was not a "poor" man.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Julia Thomas Soda Fountain

Post by novice »

Joe,

I'm getting off of the subject here, but from your post:

"Taking Rhiney's word for the gold being given to Julia, and assuming that Waltz was being truthful"

I know at some point I will find that a lot of stuff that is not documentable and I will have to make some choices on who was truthfull and who was not.

I'm still quite away from there yet.

Presently, my main focus is:

Two of the incidents regarding gold: Julia Thomas debt and the Accountable Warrant.

Identifying the People who knew Waltz and their interests in the story.

A sanitized (Documentable) chronolgy of Jacob Waltz.

Dr. Glover's books should fill in most of the blanks on that one.

A lot of work still needs to be done on the Corbin references. They add a lot to the story if they can be verified.

For example,

I was reading Hayden's History of George Riley Roberts and this is what he had to say:

"He (George Riley Roberts) and Abraham Peeples left the Cherokee Nation (Now Oklahoma) about 1851 and drove 2 yoke oxen and a wagon to California"

This is a little bit different than Corbin's 49ers account, but the differences are important to me as these kind of things help build the rest of the story.

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Getting There

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Novice,

You are correct, Walt'z gold or lack of gold may be off the subject. How Julia paid off her debts kind of leads us into Waltz's finances. That leads us back to the purpose of this forum: The Lost Dutchman Mine.

The only official record ever turned up concerning Waltz gold, is the document pertaining to the $7,000 sent to his sister. Everything else, is just another story.

I assume that is why you are researching the Thomas story. How much gold was required to retire those debts, and is it possible that Waltz was the source.

Since Bark identifies the fountain as being "ebony and marble" and states the price as being "twenty-five hundred dollars", and since the make of the fountain is verified by the old adds, I believe your research is the last brick in that wall. That part of the story seems to be true.

Should that lessen any doubts as to the rest of Bark's account concerning Julia Thomas? If it's true, the only real question remaining is: Where did Jacob Waltz get that gold?

I believe you will soon get your answer to the Roberts/Peeples question.
You can take that answer to the bank.

When did you first discover this forum?

Respectfully,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by novice »

Good Point about the Bark reference to "ebony and marble". I had passed that over.

I just got Dr. Golver's book and already saw the Artic Soda Fountain Ad. (Wow)

He talks about $20,000 in debts and I am worried about a few thousand! If we take his CPI calculations to convert that to current dollars, I would say someone was making some bad loans! Good old Jake!

You probably won't hear from me for a while (I actually have three other LDM books that should be arriving shortly) I can't wait to get in to Dr. Glover's book.

Joe, you wrote: "When did you first discover this forum?"

I'm not sure who cares but I think I mentioned that we vacationed in NM and AZ this winter and we spent about 10 days camped in Apache Junction. We arrived home about the first of March and a couple of days later I was on the internet chasing Lost Dutchman Mine links and ran across this site. I began reading the old posts and was excited to find a group where I could ask questions and get quality answers. I joined shortly after that.

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Post by Thomas Glover »

Bits and Pieces. Pictures of the ad for the Artic Soda Fountain, the inside of the Thomas Ice Cream Parlor and of the Stieneggers will be found on pages 170, 171 and 174 respectively in book The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part 1. The ads for the soda fountain appeared frequently. The type of business seems to have been a series of endeavors that changed over the years. Like many small businesses they probably did what they needed to do to make a profit. Their efforts certainly show a desire to keep doing new things, for example the soda fountain and then with regular train service (with ice) from Los Angeles (the coast) adding an oyster bar.

When checking information I would most respectfully suggest that one not go to a book, Corbin’s or mine, but if possible go to the original source. In this case our original source is a secondary source, The Bark Notes, not a book. Or, for tracking the changes in the Thomas business check out their newspaper adds over time.

It is an interesting point about Julia owing Stienegger the money and Waltz sell the eggs to Stienegger. I wonder if there are not some surviving records of the Stienegger’s business dealings which could prove interesting.

Although it is difficult to precisely translate 1890s dollars into today’s money, a good estimate is that Julia paid of $5,000 (today's dollars) in documented debts during the period in question. There is also documentation that some of these debts were paid with borrowed monies: over $200 in 1890s monies from Rhinehart and a Jim Lee. (That $200 would be over $4,000 in 2003 dollars based on the CPI, and over $21,000 based on the Unskilled Wage Index.)

The story about Stienegger’s wife (Emil’s sister) is that Stienegger saw a picture Emil had of Caroline Thomas (Emil’s sister) and fell for her on the spot. He told Emil that he would pay for her passage to America if she would marry him. They had never meant. Well she came and they married.

The dialect that Stienegger would have spoken would have been Swabian German, the dialect of Wurtemburg (SW Germany) and NW Switzerland. This is the dialect that Emil spoke and as such it was the dialect that Julia seems to have spoken. She may even have learned the dialect from Emil (?). Swabian is the dialect Waltz spoke.

As for how much or how many cans of gold Waltz supposedly had buried, what they were buried in, where they were located and so forth, that depends on the author. Bark says one thing, I recall Ely says another and from sources I do not presently recall there are other versions.

Aurum, thanks, I did not know Waltz also supplied other businesses of Stienegger’s.

As for Emil Thomas and Alex Stienegger, Emil arrived in Phoenix around the mid-1880s and almost immediately partnered with Stienegger. For at least 5 years they were in and out of business together before the Artic Soda Fountain came along. In at least one of these ventures they were partners, the Vienna Bakery. So I would think it is a pretty good bet that they knew each other well and must have like each other to have had several ventures together for several years.
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Waltz loan.

Post by Aurum »

xx
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Steinegger.

Post by Aurum »

xx
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Gentlemen: This has been a most interesting and informative post. I wish I had the time to study and review my document files on Julia Thomas so as to contribute to this discussion, however work and several current projects just do not allow me the time. I do have one question for the members of this post. "Arizona Daily Gazette; July 10, 1892. Schooler & Wilson have bought out the Thomas ice cream parlors and expect to put in all kinds of the latest kinds of drinks made." (Parlors was a mis-print. It should have been Parlor). If Schooler & Wilson bought out Julia then there should be an official county document addressing the transaction. Remember Julia did not own the building, only the fixtures therefor I do not think it would be in the "Books of Deeds". It was not a loan so it's not in the "Books of Mortgagers or Leases", and I have found no mention of it in the "Index to the Books of Miscellaneous". Do any of you have an idea as to where to search for this document? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Greg,

Why do you think there would need to be an "official county document"?

Seems like it would be a simple transfer of money for "fixtures". Bill of sale? Family records (if any still exist) of "Schooler & Wilson" may be the only records of the transaction.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Hi Joe: Maricopa County Book of Leases #2, page 132, records an Indenture made out on June 1, l891, between Julia Thomas and Price W. Butler for the rental of a room formerly occupied as a saloon by James Coleman in what is known as the Capitol Building with use of the grounds in the rear to the alley for a term of two years. This was to be her new ice cream and confectionery store. (NOTE: Emil Thomas left Julia in March of 1890 so she is now on her own). Julia sells her store to Schooler and Wilson in July of l892. She stills has a year left on her lease. Taking this into considerstion, she must have made arrangements for Schooler and Wilson to take over the lease or desolve it. This is probably recorded as a new lease between Schooler and Wilson with Butler. (Suggestion made to me by Dr. Glover). Haven't looked for it yet. Since this was the purchase of a "BUSINESS", along with the contents of the business (I.E., Fixtures etc.), one would think that a formal sales agreement transfering these items would have been prepared and filed with the city or county. Schooler and Wilson were both business men and I would assume that they would cross all there "T's" and dot the "I's". However, like you say, back then maybe it was just a handshake and the exchange of cash. From a historic point of view I just think is merits futher investigation. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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Julia Thomas

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the reply. Talk about bringing the wood.... That was a lot of information in a a short post.

Since I believe that Julia Thomas is the key to anyone finding the LDM, anything that deals with the history of the woman is important. It would be interesting to know how much money she came away from the business with, and how much was left, if any, at the end of her search.

A good many Dutch hunters left Julia in the dust heap of time, and they all ended their searches in that same dust pile. Those who fail to learn from history..... :)

I may have to make one more trip into the mountains, just to check out that ravine. :lol:

Take care, and keep making those "walk-away landings". :)

Respectfully,

Joe
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Historical Changes

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Greg,

I have often mentioned how history "changes one word at a time", until it becomes lost in the sands and words of time. I believe Julia's search is a case in point.

Tom Kollenborn, believed by many to be the "final word" on all things concerning the history of the Superstition Mountains, writes:

"Rhinehart agreed to go, but only if his brother Hermann could accompany them. Hermann was somewhat skeptical at first; however, after having heard the details of the expedition, he finally consented. And so, on August 11, 1892, the three partners set out across the broiling Arizona desert toward Superstition Mountain in search of gold. They spent about three and a half weeks searching the canyons and ravines adjacent to Weaver's Needle and Bluff Spring Mountain."


"Several decades later, Hermann Petrasch described the expedition:

'We traveled eastward across the desert from Phoenix, it was exremely hot and hard on the team. The wagon was constantly giving us problems when we crossed the washes. The wagon was soon abandoned some three miles from the face of Superstition Mountain. From this point we walked and used the team to carry our gear. Our plans had included driving the team and wagon as close as possible. We began our search near Weaver's Needle somewhere on the west side of Bluff Springs Mountain. After three or four weeks of extremely hot weather and the lack of water for the animals we abandoned the search.'"
(Emphasis in bold by Joe)

Acording to Tom Kollenborn, "The expedition had cost Julia almost everything she had. She was now destitute, with no source of income or a place to reside." Kollenborn received this information from a "personal letter" written by "Hermann Petrasch".

The eviidence seems fairly clear, that only Julia and Rhiney made the first trip to search for the mine. It also seems that they, alone, made several of the following trips. If that is true, how much of the Kollenborn story can we believe? For that matter, how much of Dr. Glover's story, he quotes Kollenborn for some of the information in his own book, remains historically factual?

There is some evidence that both men could be factually correct, but I tend to lean towards Jim Bark's "first person" account of what transpired in Julia's initial search(s).

I have great respect for Mr. Kollenborn and Dr. Glover, but that does not erase the word's of Jim Bark.

Someone has changed the historical facts in this story. Who made those changes? What else did they change, and why? :?

Respectfully,

Joe
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Julia,s loan

Post by bill711 »

Joe; If the J. and Rhieny made several trips first then why did they take a wagon, if they knew that they could not get close to the search area? I have read that Julia spend her time at nite shooting her .32 pistole into nite noises? Until she ran out of shells a box or so. I think the trip and what happened have become intertwined with time and the retelling. Bill 8)
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Close

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

You may be close to the truth.

They took a wagon because, like me, they wanted a camp with a lot of "stuff". :lol: They had no idea, until they reached the mountains, how far the wagon would go.

You might be interested to know that my Uncle Obie took a car into Second Water, and Barry Storm also took one a good way into the mountains.

"I think the trip and what happened have become intertwined with time and the retelling."

I believe that's true, but there are some accouonts which were written without the "benifit" of the passage of a lot of time.

Respectfully,

Joe
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julia,s loan

Post by bill711 »

Yes Joe I can understand going in a car or wagan after 1900 because the wagon traces were established pretty much everywhere due to farms and ranches. Joe I have just read of the one experience where they came crawling into the Bark ranch [ julia and the 3 petrashes] and her purse was stolen. Reiny said she shot up the nite sitting on a high rock. BOY the Novice comes on like a flame thrower don,t he? That boy can ask more questions than a 6 year old . He sure asks the right question,s tho don,t he? I like his method too. :lol: bill 8)
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Identity Crisis

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

I thought you were novice.

Respectfully,

Joe
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Julia,s loan

Post by bill711 »

NOOOOO JOE; Whoever Novice is he is an expert at interrigation and investigation. I do not have the where withal to do this. This expertly. I would have gave myself away too fast, I don,t have the expertise it takes like novice does. 8O bill 8) I keep thinking of a sharp lawyer or a detective..
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Talent Shows

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

When I think of the talent and intelligence it takes to be "Bill" as long as you have, your being "novice" seems like a good bet. :) That's just an "informed" opinion, so I could, of course, be wrong. 8O

Respectfully,

Joe
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julia,s Loan

Post by bill711 »

WELL Thank,s for the compliment Joe. That very kind of you. Bill :lol:
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Being Right and Wrong

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: Talent Shows

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill,

When I think of the talent and intelligence it takes to be "Bill" as long as you have, your being "novice" seems like a good bet. That's just an "informed" opinion, so I could, of course, be wrong.

Respectfully,

Joe
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