hallo,
im a newbie ,both to this site and also to the legend.i picked up a few books at a garage sale some years ago ,and only recently got round to reading them.its quite an interesting tale , and its not surprising that the tale has attracted a few devotees.however,im wondering justhow much of it is factual.now dont all jeer at me at once ,remember im only a novice at this.its just that (tome) certain things dont add up.it seems to be accepted that the original finders, the peralta family were massacred in the mountains, but there doesnt seem to be any substantiation of this,did they exist? not a peralta family ,but THE peralta family?.are there any records which show this family extracted any gold, any records to show they existed?
did waltz leave any records which showed evidence of the $254,000 worth of gold he took out of the mountains?
ive read of stone maps that exist showing the route to the mine, are these genuine or just fantasy?
the more ive read of the tale, the more interesting its become, but ive also become more confused because in the 5 books ive read, somethings contradict each other , and some things fly in the face of reality.
ive read quite a few posts on here,and with respect i find most ,but not all of them , as much concerned with petty squabbles and egos rather than facts. in short can anyone provide me with the basic facts on this story. facts that can be verified independently? im not really interested in conjecture and pet theories although i imagine they too play a part,and please no reccomendations of books i should and must read,it will most likely add to the confusuion not solve it.
many thanks
questions
If you don't want any book recommendations, there's not much I can offer you. If you will accept one, though, Dr. Glover's "The Golden Dream" is the one, along with Carlson/Stewart's "Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness".
The questions you ask fall into two categories: Some have been researched and the results are in Dr. Glover's book. As for the others, well, if anyone knew the real answers, there wouldn't be any need for this site. Yes, everything contradicts everything else. Welcome to Dutch hunting.
The questions you ask fall into two categories: Some have been researched and the results are in Dr. Glover's book. As for the others, well, if anyone knew the real answers, there wouldn't be any need for this site. Yes, everything contradicts everything else. Welcome to Dutch hunting.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Welcome
Santos,
First, let me welcome you to the best source available, anywhere, on the legends that surround the Superstition Mountains and the LDM.
You have just been given the best advise that anyone can ever give a "newbie" to the "Dutch Hunter" fraternity. Wiz never gives anything but excellent advise along those lines. On the other hand, he has given me advise, on occassion, that shouldn't be repeated in polite company.
Once we know you a little better, you will also be privileged to receive a few contentious replies now and again.
The Stone Maps are genuine and lead to specific places in the Superstitions. That does not mean that they are not a hoax, but it does mean they are not a "fantasy".
There is NO evidence that Jacob Waltz ever took ten cents worth of gold out of the Superstition Mountains. It seems pretty obvious that he did have "some" gold.
If you have read "quite a few" of the posts here and found "most ,but not all of them" to be focused on "petty squabbles and egos", I would say you need to do a lot more reading. When things slow down a bit, or we disagree on any given topic, we do tend to get a little over the top.
Ignore those posts and pay attention to those that are exchanging a great deal of good information and experience. The posts in this forum if compiled into a book, would become the most informative piece of work ever done on the Lost Dutchman Mine. There is an expensive education available in this site.
Dr. Glover's book will save you a lot of time if you are trying to verify any of the stories that you have read. That will not stop you from confirming his research or working on your own theories, but it will give you a place to start.
If you insist on not reading some of the "best" books available on the subject, get ready for a twenty or thirty year learning experience.
Good luck.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
First, let me welcome you to the best source available, anywhere, on the legends that surround the Superstition Mountains and the LDM.
You have just been given the best advise that anyone can ever give a "newbie" to the "Dutch Hunter" fraternity. Wiz never gives anything but excellent advise along those lines. On the other hand, he has given me advise, on occassion, that shouldn't be repeated in polite company.
Once we know you a little better, you will also be privileged to receive a few contentious replies now and again.
The Stone Maps are genuine and lead to specific places in the Superstitions. That does not mean that they are not a hoax, but it does mean they are not a "fantasy".
There is NO evidence that Jacob Waltz ever took ten cents worth of gold out of the Superstition Mountains. It seems pretty obvious that he did have "some" gold.
If you have read "quite a few" of the posts here and found "most ,but not all of them" to be focused on "petty squabbles and egos", I would say you need to do a lot more reading. When things slow down a bit, or we disagree on any given topic, we do tend to get a little over the top.
Ignore those posts and pay attention to those that are exchanging a great deal of good information and experience. The posts in this forum if compiled into a book, would become the most informative piece of work ever done on the Lost Dutchman Mine. There is an expensive education available in this site.
Dr. Glover's book will save you a lot of time if you are trying to verify any of the stories that you have read. That will not stop you from confirming his research or working on your own theories, but it will give you a place to start.
If you insist on not reading some of the "best" books available on the subject, get ready for a twenty or thirty year learning experience.
Good luck.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i appreciate your replies (wiz and joe ribuado) ,one of the books i bought in the garage sale was indeed by a dr glover,i found it well written but not entirely convincing,it seemed to take an awful lot for granted, and relied in the main on conjecture.thats not a criticism ,just how i saw it.the others were by ely, storm(2) and a h.clark or clarke.
i suppose my question was rather all encompassing and maybe a bit unfair to expect an answer. maybe i should have said something after the fashion of: what sets the dutchman story apart from such legends as the lost adams or the beale mystery etc? in terms of evidence and believeability.
wiz agreed that everything contradicts everything else and joe states theres no proof waltz took even 1 cent of gold out of the mountains. if that is true ,why do so many believe in the legend?im becoming more confused bythe minute.
yours sincerely
i suppose my question was rather all encompassing and maybe a bit unfair to expect an answer. maybe i should have said something after the fashion of: what sets the dutchman story apart from such legends as the lost adams or the beale mystery etc? in terms of evidence and believeability.
wiz agreed that everything contradicts everything else and joe states theres no proof waltz took even 1 cent of gold out of the mountains. if that is true ,why do so many believe in the legend?im becoming more confused bythe minute.
yours sincerely
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Nine Cents Worth Of Change
Santos,
Actually, I said "ten cents" but you can keep the change.
For a "newbie", you are able to make some pretty quick judgements on Dr. Glover's book. Which one did you read? Where (specifically) do you feel he took something for "granted" that seemed unwarranted?
It would seem that a general house cleaning is going on in old "Dutch Hunting" houses. I will have to start taking a closer look at the local garage sales.
If you are familiar with the "Lost Adam's" and the "Beale Mystery", I should think, after reading Dr. Glover, you would have a good idea of the differences between them and the LDM.
Wiz made a misstatement when he said "everything contradicts everything else". He was paraphrasing what you had said, and stretched your statement a bit. While your statement has some truth to it, it is not factual.
What took you so long to read those books?
Respectfully,
Joe
Actually, I said "ten cents" but you can keep the change.
For a "newbie",
you are able to make some pretty quick judgements on Dr. Glover's book. Which one did you read? Where (specifically) do you feel he took something for "granted" that seemed unwarranted?It would seem that a general house cleaning is going on in old "Dutch Hunting" houses. I will have to start taking a closer look at the local garage sales.
If you are familiar with the "Lost Adam's" and the "Beale Mystery", I should think, after reading Dr. Glover, you would have a good idea of the differences between them and the LDM.
Wiz made a misstatement when he said "everything contradicts everything else". He was paraphrasing what you had said, and stretched your statement a bit. While your statement has some truth to it, it is not factual.
What took you so long to read those books?
Respectfully,
Joe
joe ribuado,
my comments on the book in question were only judgements in the loosest sense ofthe word. im not a book critic and no insult was intended or implied. its just that to me there wasnt a great deal of hardevidence for some of the things stated or claimed.i.e the massacre,which with my limited knowledge of the legend (as i freely admit) it seems ,other than legend, theres no proof it occurred. a few skeletons ,gold teeth and a couple of mexican sandals doth not a massacremake. at least not to me.
like wise silverlock and goldlocks story.is there any proof they extracted any gold? the way i interpret it ,the amount of gold they found was calculated by considering how long they spent there, the cost of provisions they would have needed to maintain themselves and other sundry items etc. i dont find it very convincing.
you, yourself stated that there is no proof waltz took any gold out of the mountains.so if that fact is accepted by all, where does that leave the legend?.
the lost adams, beale question maybe then is on the same level. both of them may or may not exist. the same asbigfoot may or may not exist. it can neither be proved or disproved.
im merely looking for a little proof that this legend can be taken seriously,maybe it can.
yours
my comments on the book in question were only judgements in the loosest sense ofthe word. im not a book critic and no insult was intended or implied. its just that to me there wasnt a great deal of hardevidence for some of the things stated or claimed.i.e the massacre,which with my limited knowledge of the legend (as i freely admit) it seems ,other than legend, theres no proof it occurred. a few skeletons ,gold teeth and a couple of mexican sandals doth not a massacremake. at least not to me.
like wise silverlock and goldlocks story.is there any proof they extracted any gold? the way i interpret it ,the amount of gold they found was calculated by considering how long they spent there, the cost of provisions they would have needed to maintain themselves and other sundry items etc. i dont find it very convincing.
you, yourself stated that there is no proof waltz took any gold out of the mountains.so if that fact is accepted by all, where does that leave the legend?.
the lost adams, beale question maybe then is on the same level. both of them may or may not exist. the same asbigfoot may or may not exist. it can neither be proved or disproved.
im merely looking for a little proof that this legend can be taken seriously,maybe it can.
yours
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
A Point Well Taken
Santos,
Your point is well taken. We have all been through the same thoughts many times.
Dr. Glover, as well as a few other authors, lay as much groundwork as can be reasonably expected as to why Jacob Waltz had a mine or cache in the Superstition Mountains. You need to reread his book and pick it apart one point at a time. If you use that method, you will find a lot of reasons to believe in the legend.
After that reread, and a list of doubts, you have the perfect place to voice those doubts and receive input from those who can suppy good reasoning, worked out over many years of research, to give you a counter-argument. Not everyone reads the books with the same results as to conclusions.
Best of luck.
Respectfully,
Joe
Your point is well taken. We have all been through the same thoughts many times.
Dr. Glover, as well as a few other authors, lay as much groundwork as can be reasonably expected as to why Jacob Waltz had a mine or cache in the Superstition Mountains. You need to reread his book and pick it apart one point at a time. If you use that method, you will find a lot of reasons to believe in the legend.
After that reread, and a list of doubts, you have the perfect place to voice those doubts and receive input from those who can suppy good reasoning, worked out over many years of research, to give you a counter-argument. Not everyone reads the books with the same results as to conclusions.
Best of luck.
Respectfully,
Joe
santos wrote:joe ribuado,
my comments on the book in question were only judgements in the loosest sense ofthe word. im not a book critic and no insult was intended or implied. its just that to me there wasnt a great deal of hardevidence for some of the things stated or claimed.i.e the massacre,which with my limited knowledge of the legend (as i freely admit) it seems ,other than legend, theres no proof it occurred. a few skeletons ,gold teeth and a couple of mexican sandals doth not a massacremake. at least not to me.
like wise silverlock and goldlocks story.is there any proof they extracted any gold? the way i interpret it ,the amount of gold they found was calculated by considering how long they spent there, the cost of provisions they would have needed to maintain themselves and other sundry items etc. i dont find it very convincing.
you, yourself stated that there is no proof waltz took any gold out of the mountains.so if that fact is accepted by all, where does that leave the legend?.
the lost adams, beale question maybe then is on the same level. both of them may or may not exist. the same asbigfoot may or may not exist. it can neither be proved or disproved.
im merely looking for a little proof that this legend can be taken seriously,maybe it can.
yours
Santos,
Well, SOMEone sure as heck got massacred out there, the skeletons, etc. certainly point to that. Dr. Glover only suggested that there was actually a documented account that could be related to the Peralta massacre story. Considering what's available at this late date, he did a remarkable job of presenting a balanced view of the story. He started out to debunk the legend, as he states in the beginning of the book. But he changed his mind. If you find his book unconvincing, well, that's the cream of the crop, so you're probably not going to be convinced.
Silverlock and Malm never, to my knowledge, extracted anything. They allegedly found a pile of gold, and decided to dig for more. Everyone thought they were nuts, and, in the end, they (everyone) were right.
There are a lot of reasons to take this story seriously. But in the end, you have to want to believe it to be swayed by those reasons. If you don't want to believe it, you can easily dismiss the whole thing.
But the more you look into it, the more you find reasons to believe in the reality of it. We'll never know for sure until someone coughs up some gold, taken from the mountains, that matches the Dutchman gold. That person will have a pretty solid basis for saying they have figured it all out.
Maybe it'll be you!!
Questions
Santos,
If you are confused over the Dutchman legend, you better stay away from anything to do with the Jesuits or The Stone Maps.
If you are confused over the Dutchman legend, you better stay away from anything to do with the Jesuits or The Stone Maps.
TERRY - Update your email address. Current one is dead and you will not receive notices.
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woodreau71
- Greenhorn
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:49 am
- Location: redding. ca
Santos
I too am new to the subject, a newbie as you have put it. For more than a year I have faithfully read nearly every post available on this sight. Joe is correct about the wealth of information contained in this forum. That is what makes this such an interesting legend is everyones take on the information or so called facts. As the old saying goes, "the truth is stranger than fiction". I believe just that.
After reading Dr Glover's book and the painstakeing research he has put into it, I tend to believe there is a mine out their somewhere. I dont know if I believe in the stone tablets as it is there are more hoaxes now than one can count. What I did like about the book was he didnt try to convince the reader to believe anything. He just stated what he found, and not on a wim but through honest research of what was available. In the end I guess it comes down to the individual and what it takes for him to believe. Personally I feel "where there is smoke there is fire", and the smoke on this subject just runs too thick. Anyway, good luck in your search and welcome to the sight.
ps in any case santos, it is one hell of a story
sincerly Woodreau71
I too am new to the subject, a newbie as you have put it. For more than a year I have faithfully read nearly every post available on this sight. Joe is correct about the wealth of information contained in this forum. That is what makes this such an interesting legend is everyones take on the information or so called facts. As the old saying goes, "the truth is stranger than fiction". I believe just that.
After reading Dr Glover's book and the painstakeing research he has put into it, I tend to believe there is a mine out their somewhere. I dont know if I believe in the stone tablets as it is there are more hoaxes now than one can count. What I did like about the book was he didnt try to convince the reader to believe anything. He just stated what he found, and not on a wim but through honest research of what was available. In the end I guess it comes down to the individual and what it takes for him to believe. Personally I feel "where there is smoke there is fire", and the smoke on this subject just runs too thick. Anyway, good luck in your search and welcome to the sight.
ps in any case santos, it is one hell of a story
sincerly Woodreau71
MAPS
HELLO EVERYONE
MY FIRST POSTING. I'VE FOLLOWED THIS FORUM FOR A FEW YEARS,
FOUND SOMETHING ALL OF YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN.
GO TO YAHOO.COM-- PULL UP LOST DUTCHMAN GOLD MINE. THERE'S
A WEB PAGE -- LOST DUTCHMAN MINE-MAPS FINALLY SOLVED.
THIS IS A VERY INTERESTING WEB SITE. I THINK THIS GUY IS
GETTING VERY CLOSE TO FINDING THE MINE. I'M GLAD SOMEONE
JUST MIGHT FIND IT.
JACK H.
MY FIRST POSTING. I'VE FOLLOWED THIS FORUM FOR A FEW YEARS,
FOUND SOMETHING ALL OF YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN.
GO TO YAHOO.COM-- PULL UP LOST DUTCHMAN GOLD MINE. THERE'S
A WEB PAGE -- LOST DUTCHMAN MINE-MAPS FINALLY SOLVED.
THIS IS A VERY INTERESTING WEB SITE. I THINK THIS GUY IS
GETTING VERY CLOSE TO FINDING THE MINE. I'M GLAD SOMEONE
JUST MIGHT FIND IT.
JACK H.
thanks to all who replied to my question(s) .T heres no doubt i find myself "hooked" on the tale.However,whether i can totally believe it, i admit im not sure.
There are numerous question marks regarding the oral testimonies of much of the evidence i feel.The main question markmight be, how many of the "witnesses" might just have been getting on the "bandwagon",of course its impossible to say.All of the accounts,the earlier ones im talking about here were plainly from "believers" so we would expect bias towards the existence of the mine and waltz's involvement. Now, the non -believers plainly wouldnt have written anything, it would be interesting to listen to the other side of the argument from someone from the relevant time period perhaps.
Just a point here(one i find extremely important,but others of course might think its irrelevant).This mine is not just "a mine", its an extremely rich mine, fabulously rich its said.eNOUGH to make 20 menmillionaires supposedly .So we are plainly not(if legend is true) talking about a guy whos scrambled a few nuggets together, .tHERes no proof waltz took any gold out of the mountains has been one reply from a forum member,nobody on here has refuted that, so i assume (maybe wrongly) that all agree.If it could be proven W altz had at some time an enormous amount of money/gold in his possession(and it would need to be an enormous amount for the legend to be correct) then that would at least make the legend a viable proposition.It appears to me theres no such proof.
Its been said on here that theres some evidence to show Waltz Had at SOME times SOME gold.i guess that would be expected,but there is surely all the difference in the world between SOME gold and the amount he might be expected to have if the legend is to be believed.Of course ,there must be allowances made for exxageration, but not too much else that also makes the legend spurious.Was maybe Waltz just an ordinary prospector, who from time to time found small amounts of gold, and whose exploits have been exaggerated, maybe first by himself, then even more so by contemporaries, and then of course by penny ante authorsetc?
one member advised me tostay awaty from the stone maps and jesuits lest ui become evenmore confused. i think ill take that advice,im not advanced enough on jesuit history ,nor in truth wish to be.as for the stone maps,what on eart are they supposed to be? an aerial view of the superstitions?of one particular mountain? i fail to see how anyone could really glean much from them,and why would anyone go to that palaver ,and who were they originally intended for?If as i understand it they were found buried in the desert before being supposedly accidentally uncovered, then i presume somewhere there would be another stone map giving directions to the location of the stone maps which were found?(but again its only my opinion)
Perhaps im being too "picky", maybe i should relax and just enjoy the legend, take it for whart its worth .
There are numerous question marks regarding the oral testimonies of much of the evidence i feel.The main question markmight be, how many of the "witnesses" might just have been getting on the "bandwagon",of course its impossible to say.All of the accounts,the earlier ones im talking about here were plainly from "believers" so we would expect bias towards the existence of the mine and waltz's involvement. Now, the non -believers plainly wouldnt have written anything, it would be interesting to listen to the other side of the argument from someone from the relevant time period perhaps.
Just a point here(one i find extremely important,but others of course might think its irrelevant).This mine is not just "a mine", its an extremely rich mine, fabulously rich its said.eNOUGH to make 20 menmillionaires supposedly .So we are plainly not(if legend is true) talking about a guy whos scrambled a few nuggets together, .tHERes no proof waltz took any gold out of the mountains has been one reply from a forum member,nobody on here has refuted that, so i assume (maybe wrongly) that all agree.If it could be proven W altz had at some time an enormous amount of money/gold in his possession(and it would need to be an enormous amount for the legend to be correct) then that would at least make the legend a viable proposition.It appears to me theres no such proof.
Its been said on here that theres some evidence to show Waltz Had at SOME times SOME gold.i guess that would be expected,but there is surely all the difference in the world between SOME gold and the amount he might be expected to have if the legend is to be believed.Of course ,there must be allowances made for exxageration, but not too much else that also makes the legend spurious.Was maybe Waltz just an ordinary prospector, who from time to time found small amounts of gold, and whose exploits have been exaggerated, maybe first by himself, then even more so by contemporaries, and then of course by penny ante authorsetc?
one member advised me tostay awaty from the stone maps and jesuits lest ui become evenmore confused. i think ill take that advice,im not advanced enough on jesuit history ,nor in truth wish to be.as for the stone maps,what on eart are they supposed to be? an aerial view of the superstitions?of one particular mountain? i fail to see how anyone could really glean much from them,and why would anyone go to that palaver ,and who were they originally intended for?If as i understand it they were found buried in the desert before being supposedly accidentally uncovered, then i presume somewhere there would be another stone map giving directions to the location of the stone maps which were found?(but again its only my opinion)
Perhaps im being too "picky", maybe i should relax and just enjoy the legend, take it for whart its worth .
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Web
Santos,
I don't know that I would dismiss any part of this, wide ranging, story. I have been amazed at how many parts of our history, as well as the history of Mesoamerica, seem to match the web that surrounds the LDM.
Once you get into that history, you will find historical connections of your own. They may not be the "smoking gun" you are seeking, but it all adds to the puzzle.
Respectfully,
Joe
I don't know that I would dismiss any part of this, wide ranging, story. I have been amazed at how many parts of our history, as well as the history of Mesoamerica, seem to match the web that surrounds the LDM.
Once you get into that history, you will find historical connections of your own. They may not be the "smoking gun" you are seeking, but it all adds to the puzzle.
Respectfully,
Joe