Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Discuss anything related to the Lost Dutchman Mine in this form.
Thomas Glover
Part Timer
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 7:33 pm
Contact:

Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby Thomas Glover » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:14 pm

In Miller’s "Arizona the Last Frontier" (thanks Joe) there is an account written from a reporter in Goldfield in 1893 that refers to old mines. It reads:

“… It is important, however, that unwritten history points to the fact that there was mining for gold done in the Superstitions a hundred years ago and more.

“Over on the north side of this wonderful mountain so peculiar in shape, standing like the ruins of some great walled city with its tall spires and huge monuments, there has been discovered an ancient mining camp. Whether this mining was done by the Indians and Mexicans of the last century, or whether the operations date to years when de Vaca and Black Stephen started from the coast of Florida to find the gold fields toward the setting sun, may never be known. It is certain, however, that there are shafts and tunnels and drifts and stopes and the clearly-defined walls of a great mine. On the dumps are found tons of rock which without doubt came out of these workings.”

The article goes on to say that is was the discovery of these early evidences of mining and following their traces down the hills that first got prospectors interested in the Goldfield area. (Remember in early 1890s the Goldfield area and Mountains were called the Superstitions.)

I had always thought that these “great ruins of an ancient mining camp” were in Goldfield proper, and thus they were destroyed with the development of the Mammoth and other mines. However, as I read this article it seems this may not be the case. Does anyone have any idea just where this ancient camp, the dump and mine were located? Any more/other information on it?

Aurum
Part Timer
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 7:40 pm

Ancient Goldfield mines.

Postby Aurum » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:04 pm

xx
Last edited by Aurum on Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Das Book

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:37 am

Tom,

Your welcome.

The really good thing about giving a book like Millers, is that each time you open it over the years, it will provide something new. Enjoy.

Respectfully,

Joe

Bandit
Part Timer
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:34 pm
Location: Oregon

Ancient Mining Camp

Postby Bandit » Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:47 am

Dr.Glover,
Please check your personal messages.

Thank you,
Bandit

Knun
Part Timer
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:57 pm

What's up?

Postby Knun » Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:49 pm

Bandit,

Personal message???

Com'on let us in on it!

Bandit
Part Timer
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:34 pm
Location: Oregon

Postby Bandit » Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:08 pm

Knun,
The personal messages are really over rated. Don't worry, I don't know anything that hasn't already been talked about. Besides, I never really have seen (quote) any secrets pass on this forum.

Bandit

Jesse J. Feldman
Part Timer
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
Location: Superstition Mts. Az.

Pre-Anglo

Postby Jesse J. Feldman » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:37 pm

Tom,

Just a quick message after reading these posts.

The Mormon Stope is known to have a pre anglo tunnel on the south side. Said to be Spanish. That is the only one I know of. We have not explored it yet because it is covered. Tom K. could be the best source of this question or John Wilborn. It is only known that there was also trench mines along the value corridor said to date possibly to Aztecs. - And you may have come across J.W.'s connection to an Aztec trench mine near Goldfield. One thing is for sure - There is no mine present in 1892 that wasn't worked before, much before. You have brought up a sore subject to Anglo's. Anglo's want to be the first ones there. A few questions in the right place and I believe you will find much information.

Jesse
Last edited by Jesse J. Feldman on Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jesse J. Feldman
Part Timer
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
Location: Superstition Mts. Az.

Postby Jesse J. Feldman » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:07 pm

Tom,

I just forgot to add - Their is a "modern" history of people camping in weeks wash north of G.F. It is a perfect spot to camp and look up at Superstition Mt. - "standing like the ruins of some great walled city." Their is rock ruins on the banks of Weeks Wash that could be very old, but deceiving. I think if your looking for a large camp, you might want to stay close to water, trees, and flat land. Their is aslo much evidence of Ancient Indian settlements near that run south to Highway 60.

Jesse

murphy
Part Timer
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:12 am
Location: Plano, TX

Postby murphy » Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:56 am

Jesse
Can you recommend any books or articles regarding an Aztec presence in the Superstition area? I have heard rumors of such but have been unable to find anything written about it.
murphy

Jesse J. Feldman
Part Timer
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
Location: Superstition Mts. Az.

Answer - Question

Postby Jesse J. Feldman » Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:13 pm

Murphy,

I have read accounts of Aztec presence at Goldfield area. I can't remember where. One account may be the mysterious shaft, tunnel, and spiral staircase that Andy Synbad uncovered but did not complete on the South side of the mountain. Said to have Aztec treasure. Rumors is right. So, no real answers. I don't think there is a need for real answers on this one. Is their? And Why? I bet if you read about Globo you will find Aztec history at least near the Sups. I will see what I can find.

Stay dry if you can,

Jesse

Emanon 2
Greenhorn
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 1:20 am
Location: Apache Jct.

aztecs in and around the sups?

Postby Emanon 2 » Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:42 pm

Jesse
You asked if there was any known written knowledge of the Aztezs in or around the Superstition Mountain.. Yes, there was evidence of them being here. In 1934 a huge (10) ton boulder with an Aztez Calendar hand- carved was found at the Southern portion of the Mountain.... The story has been accepted that the Pima Indians gave the Mormons the permission to remove this VIP Calendar... excert the truth is that the Pima Tribe did not own or claim to own any such object...and if this is true...then the calendar was in fact a definate act of removing historical and cultural archeological evidence that is protected by the 1906 Antiquity Act.... Where is this calendar? It can be found at the Mesa LDS Church in Mesa, Arizona.. Oh, P.S. I have had this Calendar deciphpered and what really happened here. You, will really be SURPRISED and so will your Dad.. Signing off, remember to always to ride in the middle of the trail, so you won't fall off the edge.... Pax Emanon 2 :

Knun
Part Timer
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:57 pm

Aztecs

Postby Knun » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:46 pm

E2,
I've heard about this boulder vefore somewhere and even went to the Temple grounds and looked for it. But alas, did not find a ten ton rock that fit the bill. Is it on the grounds and if so where?

You also said you deciphered it and the story of the area was interesting. I assume that means it wasn't just a calendar but rather a calendar based story board.

Joe, do you have any input here?

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

The Mormon Connection

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:15 pm

Knun,

I do know a bit about Mormon history, but I have never heard of the calendar you mentioned.

A calendar the Mormons believe could be Aztec, was found in the Parowan Gap in Utah. Going on past history, where "artifacts" are found which seem to support the "modern-day" Mormon history, I would not jump to call it a "for sure" artifact.

The fact that the "Arizona" boulder does not seem to be "available", does not bolster the story.

It will be no problem for me to verify the existance of such a find, as I do have a few contacts in the worlds of archaeology and Mormonisim. I will get back to you.

Respectfully,

Joe

redison
Part Timer
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:29 pm

Ancient Aztec mines in the Superstitions

Postby redison » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:15 am

There was a book published in 1990 on the subject of Ancient Aztec mines in the Superstitions.

The following is a quote from Doug Stewart's website at: http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/r ... ml#babcock


Babcock, R.G. (Jerry)
Chicomoztoc I.M.O. Marshall Mo.: Green Printers, Inc., 1990. Softcover, iii, 201 pages with numerous illustrations. On the title page: "A Search For Aztec Treasure / Chicomoztoc / (The Seven Caves) / I.M.O. / (in my opinion)" Only three hundred copies printed. A search for Aztec treasure. If you would like to contact the author, he can be reached at this address: R.G. Babcock, Box 22, Marshall, MO 65340.

Somehiker
Part Timer
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby Somehiker » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:05 pm

An old thread I know, but here is a link to a shot of the "aztec" calendar on the grounds of the Mormon temple in Mesa as mentioned by Emanon 2.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/10347442@N00/10719320926

cuzzinjack
Part Timer
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby cuzzinjack » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:57 pm

Hello hiker,

Was just ready to make a post and saw this that you posted an hour ago. This is excellent stuff, and dovetails with what will be uploaded next.

cuzzinjack

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:41 am

cuzzinjack wrote:Hello hiker,

Was just ready to make a post and saw this that you posted an hour ago. This is excellent stuff, and dovetails with what will be uploaded next.

cuzzinjack


Jack,

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1133&p=16960&hilit=aztec+temple#p16960

Quite a bit discussed above concerning an Aztec presence around the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

cuzzinjack
Part Timer
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby cuzzinjack » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:27 am

Hi Joe,

It is good to see a post from you! What is most interesting about this thread is the first post by Dr. Glover with the excerpt from the book "Arizona, the Last Frontier", and his recognition that it came from you. I bought the book after I read the excerpt many years ago, and found it to be a great read. We know where the "Ancient mining camp" is now, but do not think it was done by Aztecs, but who knows?

cuzzinjack

Somehiker
Part Timer
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby Somehiker » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:55 pm

No, not by Aztecs, Jack.
I was thinking it may have been others, but not likely the Apache, since their presence was not contemporary with any influence the Aztec could have had in the region. Hohokam perhaps, but more likely the Salado IMO. ......https://www.nps.gov/tont/learn/historyc ... ulture.htm
Unlike the Hohokam, the Salado culture arose from the same kind of migration patterns and blending of "tribal" groups as did the Mexica (Chichimecs).

Here is something I came across while researching the topic....

Chichimec labyrinth.jpg


I'm still looking into this, and not sure which one it is if any, but three such labyrinth carvings exist in upper rooms at Montezuma's Castle, Casa Grande, and Tonto National Monument.

The shallow excavations of possible surface deposits you have described, as well as any gathering of loose float or placer, might have supplied all that was needed for trade with traveling merchants from down south. The presence of large pottery shards from ollas, which you had also mentioned some time ago, lends some support to this theory IMHO.

Regards:Wayne

Somehiker
Part Timer
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby Somehiker » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:31 pm

Another good writeup on the Salado.....https://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/salado.html

Somehiker
Part Timer
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby Somehiker » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:47 pm

Some examples of Salado polychrome ollas from the Tonto Basin area.
http://www.rarepottery.info/protect/saladotonto.htm

cuzzinjack
Part Timer
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby cuzzinjack » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:18 pm

Hello Hiker,

Those are some very good links that you have found. I agree with you on the Aztecs not mining here, but they may have had a broker or advisor role. I've read that even the Aztecs stayed very clear of the Yaquis, and an Aztec force moving through their territory that seemed threatening may well have been quickly snuffed. The Yaquis were hellions, and fearless on every front.

Very few native bows were left unstrung from the 19th century, thus almost all of them were ruined. But Dr. Saxton Pope (of Pope and Young fame) gathered all he could find, and tested them. A Yaqui longbow made of Osage Orange had an 80 lb pull, and would shoot an arrow 210 yards. An English longbow of yew that Pope had could make it 250 yards. Not bad for the Yaqui bow, and made for sure slaughter of the Aztecs.

There is very strong evidence that the Hohokam and the Salado simply became the Pima and related tribes. Like the Maya, the Hohokam may have revolted against their oppressive government, cared not to live in a highly structured society, but stayed in the area. But..... the 1698 map by Kino clearly shows that the Superstitions area was controlled by the Apache. So, the big question is, when the Apache gained control of the mines? There is a very jumbled 300 years from 1400 to 1700 where no one seems to know what went on.

in the middle of the 300 year time range, Fr. de Niza reported seeing a village about every mile along the Santa Cruz river in 1539, and they are all Pima. At that time, the Santa Cruz flowed all the way to the Gila? I do not recall de Niza mentioning anything about Apache in 1539, but a lot was left unsaid.

It makes one wonder if any gold trinkets were found in the archaeological digs in the Phoenix area, especially at Snake City and Pima sites. The archaeologists, it seems, would keep quiet so that someone does not break out the bulldozers and the metal detectors.

Sincerely,

cuzzinjack

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:56 am

cuzzinjack wrote:Hello Hiker,

Those are some very good links that you have found. I agree with you on the Aztecs not mining here, but they may have had a broker or advisor role. I've read that even the Aztecs stayed very clear of the Yaquis, and an Aztec force moving through their territory that seemed threatening may well have been quickly snuffed. The Yaquis were hellions, and fearless on every front.

Very few native bows were left unstrung from the 19th century, thus almost all of them were ruined. But Dr. Saxton Pope (of Pope and Young fame) gathered all he could find, and tested them. A Yaqui longbow made of Osage Orange had an 80 lb pull, and would shoot an arrow 210 yards. An English longbow of yew that Pope had could make it 250 yards. Not bad for the Yaqui bow, and made for sure slaughter of the Aztecs.

There is very strong evidence that the Hohokam and the Salado simply became the Pima and related tribes. Like the Maya, the Hohokam may have revolted against their oppressive government, cared not to live in a highly structured society, but stayed in the area. But..... the 1698 map by Kino clearly shows that the Superstitions area was controlled by the Apache. So, the big question is, when the Apache gained control of the mines? There is a very jumbled 300 years from 1400 to 1700 where no one seems to know what went on.

in the middle of the 300 year time range, Fr. de Niza reported seeing a village about every mile along the Santa Cruz river in 1539, and they are all Pima. At that time, the Santa Cruz flowed all the way to the Gila? I do not recall de Niza mentioning anything about Apache in 1539, but a lot was left unsaid.

It makes one wonder if any gold trinkets were found in the archaeological digs in the Phoenix area, especially at Snake City and Pima sites. The archaeologists, it seems, would keep quiet so that someone does not break out the bulldozers and the metal detectors.

Sincerely,

cuzzinjack


Jack,

I believe Kino was mistaken about the Apache controlling the Superstitions. All of the area north of the Gila was, pretty much, Apacheria, but the Superstitions were, mostly, inhabited by the Yavapai with Tonto Apache in the Northeastern portion of the range, north of the Salt. The Tonto did intermarry with the Yavapai and their cultures and language did become somewhat blended.

Kino did not travel north of the Gila River, as far as I know. I believe his map was drawn on information he received from the friendly natives around the Gila. His travels were pretty well documented.

Good luck,

Joe

cuzzinjack
Part Timer
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby cuzzinjack » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:48 pm

Hello hiker and Joe,

I do not know why I got out in the weeds in the first place by writing "Chichilticale". Probably because there are some big facets to the Coronado expedition that were overlooked. Somewhere along the way, the Chiracahua gained control of the Superstitions area, and all people before do not matter, IMO. All that matters now are the mines at Cerro Negra. Here again is a photo of the hoop found near its base. It is Chiracahua.

Image

The second-strangest thing that happened to me out there was about midway up the side of Cerro Negra. I saw a piece of bright material on top of a Jojoba bush, walked over to it, and there was a pair of women's panties tied to the top. At the base of the bush was a t-shirt laid out flat from a pow-wow held at the Heard museum with all the tribes that attended. It wasn't difficult to do the math. This guy is very arrogant, and was pretty sure that no one would ever figure out what is beneath Cerro Negra. I hope other Chiricahua read this, because they will know this man defiled what is likely a holy place.

cuzzinjack

Somehiker
Part Timer
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 6:00 pm

Re: Ancient Goldfield Mine(s)

Postby Somehiker » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:25 am

I don't know cuzzinjack, as most of what I have read about the Apache and other natives has said that they believed it was mining and prospectors who were the ones defiling their holy places in mountain areas. This has also been in play during the controversy over the Oak Flat project.
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2017/03/ ... pposition/
Evidently, they still feel that way.
Could be your own activities and reports on Cerro Negra have been noted and that these things were left as a message to you.