Starrar Brothers

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Thomas Glover
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Starrar Brothers

Post by Thomas Glover »

Does anyone have any information on Charlie Starr? I was re-reading my Starrar file and in a publication on the Pleasant Valley War there was a reference to a Charles Starr. The book stated that he was related to Andrew and Jacob Starrar, but he always left the “ar” off the end of his name spelling it Starr. A friend told me that Charles Starr was buried in a small cemetery just outside of the town of Young. (Young is the only town in the valley.)

Although I looked and asked questions no one knew about a small graveyard just outside of town. I was fortunate in locating one of the area’s prominent local historians. She grew up in Pleasant Valley and is part of one of the ranching families. I had a very long and pleasant discussion with her at her home. Her knowledge of the feud, its aftermath, the unwritten aspects of the “war’ and its untold aftermath. But, she had no knowledge of a Charles Starr or any graveyard just outside of town, or one just as you come into town.

Has anyone heard of Charles Starr or his resting place?

Thomas

PS: I am not where I can recheck my files right now, so I cannot provide the details of the book in which I found the Charles Starr reference.
Aurum
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Charles Starr

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Thomas Glover
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Post by Thomas Glover »

Aurum,

Thanks for some clarification on this issue. I did find the Young cemetery and looked long and hard for Charles Starr. I did not find him, but that means little as so many of the old graves have lost their markings. Did find graves of the Grahams and others from the Feud/Range War. Young is an interesting and still an isolated bit of Arizona. I will continue to follow up on ol’ Charles and see what I can find. There is a lot more to this feud and its effects than is commonly known. I wonder just how far its tentacles reach.
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Post by Thomas Glover »

Re: Charles Starr,

Does anyone have information on when or where he was born? Or when he died? There is a Charles Starr listed in the Arizona death records who was born in 1853 and died in 1914. Could this be OUR Charles Starr?
Joe Ribaudo
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Charles Starr

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Tom and Aurum,

Nice to see our own two "stars" working on the same puzzle.

I came up with Charles H. Starr. Born 1853 in Ohio. Married Mary Donovan on Dec. 26, 1882 in Globe, AZ

They show up on the 1910 Census for Globe, Gila, AZ

I think I may have mentioned this before, but the "best gun" for either side in the Pleasant Valley War, was a gentleman by the name of Jim Roberts. You mention a family in your book by the same name. Same family? Jim Roberts history reads like a true adventure novel.

Young, AZ was the name picked over Pleasant Valley for the town because of the Young Family. I believe the first Postmistress was a Young.

I am at the store, so don't any of you historians take this information to the bank, yet. :lol:

Home now and "Miss Ola Young was appointed postmaster, a position she filled for fifty years." Page 212 "A Little War Of Our Own" by, Don Dedera.

Respectfully,

Joe
Aurum
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Charles Starr(ar)

Post by Aurum »

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Gregory E. Davis
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Hi Tom; Jack Carlson sent me an article clipped out of the Arizona Silver Belt, April 30, 2003, P.A2, titled, "Looking for records". It was listed by a Marilyn Lott, 1310 N. 4700 West, Ogden, UT 84404. Email: [email protected]. "Marilyn is looking for the grave site of her third grandmother, Amanda Armstrong Faucett Sanders, wife of the late Moses Martin Sanders who died in Tonto Basin on April 24, 1885." No grave was found in the Tonto Basin Cemetery where she looked. "I am also interested in finding information on the following. My grandmother, Ethel May Sanders, daughter of Moses Martin Sanders (1853-1926), and Lora Ann Amelia [STARR] Sanders born June 1, l884 in Tonto Basin in the home of Amanda Armstrong Faucett Sanders." There is more to the article but this hits the highlights. Jack also sent me a photo copy of a page from the book; "The Journey with Tom, Memories of an Arizona Pioneer Woman", by Alice J. Curnow, 2003. Pages 190-192 talk about a Mr. and Mrs. Charles H. Starr living in Mesa in l895-1897. This Starr family is related to the Curnow family. In the Apendix II, it talks about Mr. and Mrs. Charles Starr arriving from Florence on 2-2-1889. Hope this helps in some way. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
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The Power Of Three

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Gentlemen,

When I think of the historical knowledge, reference material and experience that resides in the three of you, I realize the power you control.

I know each of you have shared that collective power with each other on any number of occasions. The question is, have you ever focused that power at one time and one place? I would love to be the fly on the wall at that affair.

While this forum could be considered an "LDM Think Tank", it lacks direction and focus.

I have no doubt each of you has his favorite conclusion as to locations in the Superstition Mountains and it's various legends, but, like me, you are probably each reaching the close of a lifelong search (on the ground) for any treasure that might be there. The effort does not get easier.

All of this in an opinion, so I could, of course, be wrong. :)

Aurum,

Thank you, but the "fly on the wall" is appropriate in my case.

This may have already happened, but if the three of you were to spend a three day weekend together, more could be accomplished than I have done in forty-seven years. There is no doubt in my mind on that point.

Trust (the lack of), greed and ego are all that keeps the LDM hidden. :idea:

I want to thank each of you and all of the other "nameless" friends who have helped me in my own research. I am richer for your kindness and open handed support.

Respectfully,

Joe
Aurum
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Charles Starr (ar)

Post by Aurum »

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Joe Ribaudo
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The Mormon Connection

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Aurum,

Anyone looking into this particular area, will find it a bit confusing. The marraiges and number of children are quite a mix. Mormon records show ten children born to Lora Ann Amelia Starr Sanders and twelve children born to Amanda Armstrong Faucett Sanders, both women were married to Moses Martin Sanders. Lora may have been married to Jr., but the records seem to indicate that both were married to the same man.

Mormon records show that Lora was born in Springville, Utah. She was also buried in Utah, according to their records. A good part of their lives were spent in Mexico, with many of the children being born there.

Both women seem to have been the perfect "Mormon" wives.

I have no doubt you are correct, but it's not an easy trail to follow without
some personal references, such as those you possess. One wonders how the Mormon Church could have such extensive records and be so wrong.

No wonder there have been questions concerning the Starr family in the Tonto Basin. I finallly gave up trying to figure it all out.

Respectfully,

Joe
Gregory E. Davis
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Post by Gregory E. Davis »

Joe: Thank you for the kind words of praise regarding the historical research work and contributions may by myself. Aurum and Tom Glover. I still contend that I am more of a collector and accumulator than a historian. You need to give credit to two additional individals who, although do not participate in the forum due to work restrains, have done a tremendous amount of work in our area of interest. I am speeking of Clay Worst and Tom Kollenborn.

Aurum: Thank you for the material on the Sanders family. I think I will download this site and mail it to Marilyn Lott. She may find someting that will help her in her search.

Joe; Just think of it as a big jigsaw puzzle where some of the pieces have been clipped. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis
Joe Ribaudo
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The Others

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Greg,

I have never (that I remember :? ) met Clay Worst or Tom Kollenborn. That does not mean anything, as I often forget what I had for breakfast by lunch time. :lol:

I am familiar with Mr. Kollenborn's work and the fine reputation of Clay Worst. It would be an honor to know either man. Your own experiences with Tom Kollenborn are something that every Dutch Hunter would give a small fortune to add to their resume.

I would say your "jigsaw puzzle" is very large indeed. :lol:

Respectfully,

Joe
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Aurum
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Sanders, Starr

Post by Aurum »

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Joe Ribaudo
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Starr or Starrar

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Aurum, Tom and Greg,

I have read several times that the "ar" was purposely or mistakenly left off and the name "Starrar" became "Starr". What are the chances that the "ar" was actually added to the more common "Starr" surname. Has anyone done a search for "Starrar" in Germany? You might find that interesting. I believe the correct name would be "Storrar".

As for John Franklin Sanders, while he died March 18, 1896 in Mesa, AZ, I doubt you will find his wife buried there. She died Aug. 22, 1875 in Fairview, Utah. Six of their eight children were born in Fairview.

John was born in Montgomery, IL on March 5, 1830. He was 25 years old when he married Mary Irene Clement in Salt Lake City. It would appear that he only moved to Arizona towards the end of his life.

John's father, Moses Martin Sanders had 12 children with Amanda Armstrong Faucett. None, that I know of, were born in Arizona. There is a bit of incongruity in the genealogy of this family. The large number of children may have something to do with those problems.

Respectfully,

Joe
Aurum
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Sanders / Starr(ar)

Post by Aurum »

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bill711
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starrar Brothers

Post by bill711 »

This seems famiar to me. Who was fighting who? Did the sanders operate a mine? Was the sanders killed by the tewkbury,s? Bill 8O
Thomas Glover
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Post by Thomas Glover »

I cannot say what the derivation of the spelling of the name Starrar is. The name "Starrar" is one found in some European countries. I have seen the name spelt various ways making it somewhat challenging to research. However, I believe the correct spelling (at least as far as Andrew and Jacob were concerned) is "Starar" (no double "r"). I have seen this spelling on most of the land documents associated with the Starar brothers. But, for me, the clincher is that circa 1854 Andrew and Jacob both signed a petition to the governor of California requesting protection from Indians in Humbolt County. Both men signed "Starar".

One facet of the Starar-Waltz-Lost Dutchman that I find intriguing is the timeline associated with the Starar's returning to the United States, and Waltz's believed discovery of a rich Spanish/Mexican gold mine. After leaving California the Starar brothers went to Mexico (apparently Northern Mexico), then circa 1866/'67 they return to the US settling in Arizona right next to Waltz. In 1870 Waltz's place is well populated with Mexicans and many believe it is about this time that he finds his gold. Is it just a coincidence that the Starar brothers return from Mexico, hook up with Waltz and Waltz finds a Mexican mine? Just making an observation on something that does not seem to get much attention.
Joe Ribaudo
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Starar

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Tom,

Starar does seem to be the chosen spelling for Jacob and Andrew, but "Starrar" does manage to pop up in a number of unlikely places.

On a military report written on May 25, 1864, First Lt. K. Geer wrote the following: "I then traveled in the direction of Mad River, which stream I struck ten miles above the Starrar ranch, where I camped, having marched eighteen miles. May 17, traveled down Mad river to the Starrar ranch, where I met the train and camped."

In the chapters where you wrote about "Jacob and Andrew Starrar", you mention the "Deed of Jacob Waltz to Andrew Starrar, Maricopa County, Arizona". Not having seen a copy of the document I don't know how the last name was spelled. Tom Kollenborn spells it Starar.

When the "Salt River Valley Town Association was formed, the articles were signed by both brothers, as well as a number of others, including Darrell Duppa. The brothers signed the document "Starar".

I think we can count on Starar being the correct spelling. Now what about all those pesky "Starr's"?

One other thing, do you know where you can find Henry and Silas Storer?
You may have notice another dropped "r". :) Same Census as the Starar brothers.

Respectfully,

Joe
Thomas Glover
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Post by Thomas Glover »

Joe,

Sorry, but I am not familiar with the report of First Lt. K. Geer. Can you elaborate?

Another Starar-Waltz-Mexican connection is that in the 1870 census both the Starars and Waltz each have a Peralta living with them, and they are the only ones (as I recall) who have a Peralta.

Thomas
Joe Ribaudo
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Operations On The Pacific Coast

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Tom,

The small excerpt I quoted comes from a series of reports on "OPERATIONS ON THE PACIFIC COAST". They deal with the periods between Jan. 1, 1861 and June 30, 1865.

"The operations reported in this volume were carried on in that portion of the territory of the United States lying west of the Rocky Mountains, including so much of the Territory of Utah as lay west of the one hundred and seventeenth meridian of west longitude and so much of the Territory of New Mexico as lay west of the one Hundred and tenth meridian of west longitude."

Part of those operations include the "vicinity of Fort Humboldt, Cal".

My quote can be found on page 293, Chapter LXII. "OPERATIONS IN HUMBOLDT MILITARY DISTRICT." These were campaigns against the Indians in that Military District. The mention of the "Starrar Ranch" is brief and has little to do with the rest of the report. If you would like the full text, I will be happy to provide it.

On the other hand, you could just visit this site, for an interesting trip through a little military history of the Pacicic Coast.

http://ehistory.com/uscw/library/or/105/0293.cfm

Respectfully,

Joe
Thomas Glover
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Post by Thomas Glover »

Joe,

Awhile back you lavished complements on a few of us. Your remarks were kind and it would be ungracious not to thank you. But, I fear those comments may be misplaced. There are many both in the Dutchman community at large and on this forum in particular that should be included in any such comments. As Greg Davis noted most certainly Clay Worst and Tom Kollenborn should be added, if not two of the top more names on such a list. But there are others, some who work mostly from original records, others who are inheritors of family histories and some as a result of finds in the field. Some have passed on. Al Reser should be on that list; Al was one of the few people I know of who actually found many things on the ground, and he had the good fortune to fall into much information by shear good luck — often such “luck” was the result of his hard work and the fact he was simply so nice and trustworthy that people trusted him. I did. There is Bob Crandall who knew a great deal about the mountains both from time in them and from time in Mexico. Jim Bark searched not only the mountains but also primary source documents. S.C. of this forum deserves to be on any such list, he is most assuredly a most accomplished researcher. I have learned much from your own postings Joe, and I feel you would be on such a list. There are others, some of whom keep a low profile.

Until recently most had not even heard of Gene Reynolds, but Gene has done considerable research on an aspect of the legend that few have tackled, Ruth’s time in California. He has spent much time on the ground in country that makes the Superstitions look like a garden, tracked down people, etc. researching. He has done what he says he has done (and more). There is Jerry Hamrick who may be the dean of the historical researchers; he has an encyclopedic knowledge of the people involved and he has made many discoveries for which others take credit. How about Ron Feldman? Has anyone else even been able to get a permit? How many people have known as many Dutch Hunters? Talked with them? Given them hospitality? Received information and data in return? Or, Don Shade who really researched an entirely different take on the legend and the mountains? Again thank you for the kind comments, but it is a long list. Isaac Newton once said when he was asked about his accomplishments something like: “If I have seen farther than others it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants.” He was referring mostly to Galileo. But, it is true for most of us, certainly it is true for me.
Joe Ribaudo
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Das List

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Tom,

You said:

"...,I fear those comments may be misplaced."

Not at all. The names I mentioned are the best, I believe, sources to be found today. I could add many names to that list, but the ones I mentioned have the advantage of having information that was not available to some of the people you have mentioned, while you all have the access to their work. That seems like a better position for you.

I know of NO ONE who has the information, at hand, that Greg Davis has
concerning the Superstitions and the LDM. Now I have to admit, I don't know all of the people that you mention, have not been in their homes and in some cases never even talked to them, but it's hard to imagine someone having more "stuff" than Greg.

I don't think I have ever missed an opportunity to praise the work of S.C. and Tom Kollenborn, but perhaps I have slighted them at some time or another. I have had more praise. than questions, on Azmula's work, but that always went unnoticed. :( I have also mentioned Peter's work and contributions on the forum often.

Having said all of that, I have never agreed 100% with any of the people we have mentioned, including my hero, Thomas Glover. :lol: That does not mean I believe I am on their level or know more than any of them. It means I believe they may be mistaken on a given point.

More often than not, I am usually wrong and will say so. No doubt others may have another slant on that. :?

As for standing "on the shoulders of giants", there are many who will be using the works of Tom Glover, and the work of those he used as sources, in their own searches and research. When you stand "on the shoulders of giants", where does that place the people who will stand on yours? I would expect those I have mentioned to be reticent in their acceptance of praise. It is our job to raise you up, it is your job to say "shucks", it was no big deal.

I hope all is well with you and your family.

Respectfully,

Joe
Jesse J. Feldman
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THE ELITE

Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

Hi

Very good Tom.

If you live long enough I think you will find everyone is on the same plane. It seems some people are always fighting for the top. Sometimes bowing to the elite is showing little respect for yourself and may hinder your own thoughts and findings. So why play coy?

The elite is nothing more than people that act a certain way. They have chosen - They are happy with themselves. They practice a certain characteristic. - And I think you can figure what that is. It doesn't matter how "elite" you are - you never loose that curiosity and drive tho learn more from others. Tom is very correct by saying their are many ways a person can bring value to the history of the Supers. or any subject matter. Even if you are secretive and keep a low profile - of which my family doesn't know what that means.

Respectfully,

Jesse
Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jesse,

That was pretty profound but the "plane" comment went a little over my head. :lol:

When you say "everyone is on the same plane", what do you mean? Is the "information" that was passed along by Wyatt, say "Kino glasses", on the same plane as Tom's "Military Map"?

Do you believe that Sir Isac Newton's quote was "bowing to the elite" and in some manner showed "little respect" for himself? Did his comment "hinder" his own thought process?

When Tom added names and comments to my own "incomplete" list, was he part of the above paragraph?

True respect for the abilities and accomplishments of others is not being "coy" but rather shows respect and admiration for what they have done.

Speaking for myself: If I am ever on the same plane as the people I have mentioned, Greg Davis will probably be the pilot and we will be taking off from some airport. :lol: You may classify that as being "coy", but I just can't find my "Kino Glasses". In the real world, there are many
"planes", and in those planes, not everyone has first class tickets.

"Sometimes" was a good way to phrase your comments, but "sometimes
a cigar is just a cigar".

All of this is just my opinion, so I could, of course, be wrong. 8O

Good luck on the dig and thanks for another thought provoking post.

Tom,

Perhaps I should have added this quote to my last reply to you:

"I want to thank each of you and all of the other "nameless" friends who have helped me in my own research. I am richer for your kindness and open handed support."

I would like to think that covered everyone I left out. They are not "nameless" because I have forgotten who they are.


Respectfully,

Joe
Jesse J. Feldman
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Post by Jesse J. Feldman »

Joe,

Plane - existance, flat or level surface. We all bring something to the table.

Newton was probably teaching others a lesson. - Once you gain an achievement you need everyones support more than ever or you are nothing. That is a fragile cliff between celebration and unpopularity. He can not be the only one to celebrate his achievements. Like it or not we all need each other. So - Is there a top? Is the universe capped? I don't think so.

We play coy to take in information so that one day we may think of ourselves as at the top. I choose no ladder to climb - just a plane to mill about. And yes, with great respect for others.

I knew I would get a rise out of you Joe. It's always in fun. Thanks.

Jesse
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