Gentlemen,
Just as a point of interest; for those you who may or may not have convictions regarding the Peralta Stones, there is an interesting article in the January 2005 edition of Arizona Highways. Pages 32 and 33. The stones will be on display at the 23rd Flagg Gem and Mineral Show in Mesa, held on January 7, 8, and 9th.
Grayhair
The Peralta Stones
For those of you that haven't read the two page spread or don't have
access: the conclusion is that the stones are of northern Arizona rock
and were made by electric tools around 1940. No analysis is made
of the markings themselves.
If I have made an error in my summary, corrections are welcome.
Harry
access: the conclusion is that the stones are of northern Arizona rock
and were made by electric tools around 1940. No analysis is made
of the markings themselves.
If I have made an error in my summary, corrections are welcome.
Harry
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Electric Tools?
Harry,
I have not seen the "two page spread" you speak of, so perhaps you can tell us when this "conclusion" was reached, and by who.
What evidence was left on the stones and how can they be sure that the maps were not re-worked after they were found.
My last question would be, how did they decide on "around 1940" as opposed to around 1930?
Thanks in advance.
Respectfully,
Joe
I have not seen the "two page spread" you speak of, so perhaps you can tell us when this "conclusion" was reached, and by who.
What evidence was left on the stones and how can they be sure that the maps were not re-worked after they were found.
My last question would be, how did they decide on "around 1940" as opposed to around 1930?
Thanks in advance.
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe,
I think you are going to have to buy an issue to get the details
without error. January, 2005, Arizona Highways, page 32.
The article is mentioned on the cover.
We, personally, do not know whether the stones are a hoax.
We have tried to remain open to the possibility. We do think that if
they were made in the 20th century somebody was pretty busy out
in the mountains putting the trail in, in addition to carving stones.
If we get to the end we might find a stone carved with the word "Gotcha."
Anyhow, Team Fever is still making progress. I suspect the word hoax
will prevail unless someone comes up with the object of the maps.
There are several books out explaining how to read them. None are
convincing. None will be, even if correct, without the end.
Is there any historical record of anyone trying to "pull a hoax"
with them? Every story I have read of anyone that had them tried to
solve them himself, from the original finder, to the final partnerships.
When they ran out of money they made money selling pictures of them
with what they considered important clues taped over so they could
continue to search with an advantage.
After 50 years of searching, and no record of anyone finding anything,
a person would have his neck stuck pretty far out to declare them
authentic. A hoax conclusion was probably inevitable. It certainly
is the safe conclusion.
As an after thought I would think the first thing a forger would
do is use 19th century tools. Certainly you wouldn't use a Dremel.
Maybe a forger is different from a hoaxster
Harry
I think you are going to have to buy an issue to get the details
without error. January, 2005, Arizona Highways, page 32.
The article is mentioned on the cover.
We, personally, do not know whether the stones are a hoax.
We have tried to remain open to the possibility. We do think that if
they were made in the 20th century somebody was pretty busy out
in the mountains putting the trail in, in addition to carving stones.
If we get to the end we might find a stone carved with the word "Gotcha."
Anyhow, Team Fever is still making progress. I suspect the word hoax
will prevail unless someone comes up with the object of the maps.
There are several books out explaining how to read them. None are
convincing. None will be, even if correct, without the end.
Is there any historical record of anyone trying to "pull a hoax"
with them? Every story I have read of anyone that had them tried to
solve them himself, from the original finder, to the final partnerships.
When they ran out of money they made money selling pictures of them
with what they considered important clues taped over so they could
continue to search with an advantage.
After 50 years of searching, and no record of anyone finding anything,
a person would have his neck stuck pretty far out to declare them
authentic. A hoax conclusion was probably inevitable. It certainly
is the safe conclusion.
As an after thought I would think the first thing a forger would
do is use 19th century tools. Certainly you wouldn't use a Dremel.
Maybe a forger is different from a hoaxster
Harry
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Hoax?
Harry,
I have seen the article. It is no different than other opinions I have read and heard. The problem is, that they are all just opinions.
There is no way to "date" the stones without some other form of documentation, or someone finding something at one of the locations marked on the maps.
Here is my own opinion:
The horse and priest maps are a hoax. They are likely the work of Chuck Aylor, or a good friend of his. If that is true, it makes the trail maps very suspect.
It is less certain that the trail maps are a hoax. They are supported by numerous stories of treasure in the Superstition Mountains, including the Lost Dutchman Mine. Remember, only the trail maps are shown on the bumper of that car.
Having been at the start of that trail, and also at the end of it, I can assure you that the map is based on facts, not fiction.
"Is there any historical record of anyone trying to "pull a hoax"
with them? Every story I have read of anyone that had them tried to
solve them himself, from the original finder, to the final partnerships.
When they ran out of money they made money selling pictures of them
with what they considered important clues taped over so they could
continue to search with an advantage."
Here is the direction you should take to determine if anyone has tried to "pull a hoax with them". Look into the history of: C.O. Mitchell (Travis Marlow?), Grace Mitchell and Elgin Kriewald. All three were residents of Apache Junction.
Find those three people, or their heirs, and you may find the answers to a good many questions. 1965 seems to have been a pivotal point in the lives of this trio. Anyone else know what took place in the Superstitions a few years later?
When you "get to the end" you will find a stone, but you will not find the word "gotcha". That assumes you have actually found the correct trail.
Good Luck to you and your team.
Respectfully,
Joe
I have seen the article. It is no different than other opinions I have read and heard. The problem is, that they are all just opinions.
There is no way to "date" the stones without some other form of documentation, or someone finding something at one of the locations marked on the maps.
Here is my own opinion:
The horse and priest maps are a hoax. They are likely the work of Chuck Aylor, or a good friend of his. If that is true, it makes the trail maps very suspect.
It is less certain that the trail maps are a hoax. They are supported by numerous stories of treasure in the Superstition Mountains, including the Lost Dutchman Mine. Remember, only the trail maps are shown on the bumper of that car.
Having been at the start of that trail, and also at the end of it, I can assure you that the map is based on facts, not fiction.
"Is there any historical record of anyone trying to "pull a hoax"
with them? Every story I have read of anyone that had them tried to
solve them himself, from the original finder, to the final partnerships.
When they ran out of money they made money selling pictures of them
with what they considered important clues taped over so they could
continue to search with an advantage."
Here is the direction you should take to determine if anyone has tried to "pull a hoax with them". Look into the history of: C.O. Mitchell (Travis Marlow?), Grace Mitchell and Elgin Kriewald. All three were residents of Apache Junction.
Find those three people, or their heirs, and you may find the answers to a good many questions. 1965 seems to have been a pivotal point in the lives of this trio. Anyone else know what took place in the Superstitions a few years later?
When you "get to the end" you will find a stone, but you will not find the word "gotcha". That assumes you have actually found the correct trail.
Good Luck to you and your team.
Respectfully,
Joe
Re: Hoax?
JoeJoe Ribaudo wrote:
Here is my own opinion:
The horse and priest maps are a hoax. They are likely the work of Chuck Aylor, or a good friend of his. If that is true, it makes the trail maps very suspect.
Joe
Might this good friend of Aylor's be the same individual that claimed to be a long term partner with Brownie Holmes but never steped foot in the mountains with him?
No sense setting yourselves up for character assassination.
Maybe attack is a better verb.
Team Fever is coming to the conclusion the trail maps are
real and the other maps probably are real therefore no one
would be involved in a hoax.
The wavy line we think is a symbol equivalent to the modern day
checksum. In a barcode the last character is derived from all
those that precede it. If the computer reads any character in
error the checksum won't match and the received message is
invalid. In the same way the wavy line has no meaning unless
one is at the correct destination. Then it should have plenty of
meaning.
We are still working on the "random" dots. We think they must have
a navigation message like every other symbol on the map. If the same
arrangement of dots is on the upper left of the horse map then both
maps probably carry the same authenticity.
Team Fever
Maybe attack is a better verb.
Team Fever is coming to the conclusion the trail maps are
real and the other maps probably are real therefore no one
would be involved in a hoax.
The wavy line we think is a symbol equivalent to the modern day
checksum. In a barcode the last character is derived from all
those that precede it. If the computer reads any character in
error the checksum won't match and the received message is
invalid. In the same way the wavy line has no meaning unless
one is at the correct destination. Then it should have plenty of
meaning.
We are still working on the "random" dots. We think they must have
a navigation message like every other symbol on the map. If the same
arrangement of dots is on the upper left of the horse map then both
maps probably carry the same authenticity.
Team Fever
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Harry,
"No sense setting yourselves up for character assassination.
Maybe attack is a better verb."
Not sure what that means, but.....
The "wavy line" is not something you can see. It's not a landmark.
It is just the top of the map. The only way you will know this, is if you have figured out the map.
I suppose, if you could see "bobby's horse", you would have a different opinion of the other maps. The reason I believe it is a hoax, is because I have seen it, as well as the "witch".
Perhaps the "Team" approach is not the best way to go at this thing. On the ground, yes. Looking for answers, maybe no.
Good Luck.
Respectfully,
Joe
"No sense setting yourselves up for character assassination.
Maybe attack is a better verb."
Not sure what that means, but.....
The "wavy line" is not something you can see. It's not a landmark.
It is just the top of the map. The only way you will know this, is if you have figured out the map.
I suppose, if you could see "bobby's horse", you would have a different opinion of the other maps. The reason I believe it is a hoax, is because I have seen it, as well as the "witch".
Perhaps the "Team" approach is not the best way to go at this thing. On the ground, yes. Looking for answers, maybe no.
Good Luck.
Respectfully,
Joe
"No sense setting yourselves up for character assassination.
Maybe attack is a better verb."
"Not sure what that means, but..... "
Someone was about to name the person thought to be the perpetrator
of the stone map hoax.
"The "wavy line" is not something you can see. It's not a landmark.
It is just the top of the map. The only way you will know this, is if you have figured out the map. "
"The wavy line (next to the big hole) we think is a symbol equivalent
to the modern day checksum."
One of us is wrong. We think it is you.
Only evidence at the end will prove it.
120 degrees and 55 feet is still out there, by the way.
Team Fever
Maybe attack is a better verb."
"Not sure what that means, but..... "
Someone was about to name the person thought to be the perpetrator
of the stone map hoax.
"The "wavy line" is not something you can see. It's not a landmark.
It is just the top of the map. The only way you will know this, is if you have figured out the map. "
"The wavy line (next to the big hole) we think is a symbol equivalent
to the modern day checksum."
One of us is wrong. We think it is you.
Only evidence at the end will prove it.
120 degrees and 55 feet is still out there, by the way.
Team Fever
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Perhaps
Harry,
"Someone was about to name the person thought to be the perpetrator
of the stone map hoax."
I am not going to name that person. If redison had a clue, he would have "spit it out".
I have offered an opinion, that Chuck Aylor may have been involved, if part of the Stones are a hoax. The foundation for that opinion can be found in the Superstition Mountains.
The "wavy line" you are speaking of, can be seen. I missunderstood which line you were talking about. I assume you believe that line, and hole, are a signifigant part of the puzzle. You may be right.
What "evidence" do you expect to find at "the end", and where, on the maps, do you believe "the end" is?
Since I am not living off the treasure that the Stone Maps may or may not lead to, you may be right and I could very well be wrong.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
"Someone was about to name the person thought to be the perpetrator
of the stone map hoax."
I am not going to name that person. If redison had a clue, he would have "spit it out".
I have offered an opinion, that Chuck Aylor may have been involved, if part of the Stones are a hoax. The foundation for that opinion can be found in the Superstition Mountains.
The "wavy line" you are speaking of, can be seen. I missunderstood which line you were talking about. I assume you believe that line, and hole, are a signifigant part of the puzzle. You may be right.
What "evidence" do you expect to find at "the end", and where, on the maps, do you believe "the end" is?
Since I am not living off the treasure that the Stone Maps may or may not lead to, you may be right and I could very well be wrong.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
"Perhaps the "Team" approach is not the best way to go at this thing. On the ground, yes. Looking for answers, maybe no."
Don’t underestimate or belittle Team Fever.
We are a unique group of people ranging in age from 30 to 64.
Country/cultural backgrounds include mainland China, Canada,
Poland, Germany, and America.
Though not a requirement, the educational levels happen to be
phenomenal with a PhD. in physics, PhD. in Electrical engineering,
Masters in Chemical engineering and Masters in Electrical Engineering
and my own self awarded PhD. in play. Gotta do something to keep
up with those guys.
All of us work, except for one retired. None of us needs or intends to
take a buck from the Superstitions. Good thing, considering the past
success rate.
The only requirements were a spirit of adventure, ability to hike,
and the willingness to put anything found in a museum.
The teamwork has made all the difference. We all have different
strengths. Dave and Ellen have shown good powers of observation
in the field. Judy, at 64, is the only female backpacker. I tend to work
with the map. Together we make great BS detectors. Our conclusions
are the result of evidence and agreement.
All is not roses. One doesn’t like to hike and another can hike us all
into the ground but refuses to backpack. The day hikes are over.
Put it all together and we now have a spot on the ground we have
to figure out what to do with. To start with we are looking for
Archaeology courses and technologies that see through dirt
without moving any of it.
Despite the name, none of us has Gold Fever. At least not yet.
Harry
Don’t underestimate or belittle Team Fever.
We are a unique group of people ranging in age from 30 to 64.
Country/cultural backgrounds include mainland China, Canada,
Poland, Germany, and America.
Though not a requirement, the educational levels happen to be
phenomenal with a PhD. in physics, PhD. in Electrical engineering,
Masters in Chemical engineering and Masters in Electrical Engineering
and my own self awarded PhD. in play. Gotta do something to keep
up with those guys.
All of us work, except for one retired. None of us needs or intends to
take a buck from the Superstitions. Good thing, considering the past
success rate.
The only requirements were a spirit of adventure, ability to hike,
and the willingness to put anything found in a museum.
The teamwork has made all the difference. We all have different
strengths. Dave and Ellen have shown good powers of observation
in the field. Judy, at 64, is the only female backpacker. I tend to work
with the map. Together we make great BS detectors. Our conclusions
are the result of evidence and agreement.
All is not roses. One doesn’t like to hike and another can hike us all
into the ground but refuses to backpack. The day hikes are over.
Put it all together and we now have a spot on the ground we have
to figure out what to do with. To start with we are looking for
Archaeology courses and technologies that see through dirt
without moving any of it.
Despite the name, none of us has Gold Fever. At least not yet.
Harry
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
No "belittle" thing!
Harry,
The key words and phrases in my posts are: "Perhaps", "maybe", "you may be right", "you may be right and I could very well be wrong", I believe" and "Respectfully".
None of that could be construed to "belittle" you or any member of your team, or "Team Fever" as a whole. Sorry you took it that way.
Which of you is the "old man/woman" as far as this search goes?
"Since I am not living off the treasure that the Stone Maps may or may not lead to, you may be right and I could very well be wrong."
Once again, I believe that sums thing up fairly well.
Respectfully,
Joe
The key words and phrases in my posts are: "Perhaps", "maybe", "you may be right", "you may be right and I could very well be wrong", I believe" and "Respectfully".
None of that could be construed to "belittle" you or any member of your team, or "Team Fever" as a whole. Sorry you took it that way.
Which of you is the "old man/woman" as far as this search goes?
"Since I am not living off the treasure that the Stone Maps may or may not lead to, you may be right and I could very well be wrong."
Once again, I believe that sums thing up fairly well.
Respectfully,
Joe