Monroy's Ranch
Monroy's Ranch
I just finished reading The Holmes Manuscript. (Part 2 of T. E. Glover's book). Just wondering if someone could tell me where Monroy's ranch is. If the book has the information, I must have missed it. Would you need to look on an older map to find it? I'm wondering if it is the same as "Second Water", because on page 58 it says he went to Monroy's ranch to catch one of the old Government trails, and on page 59 it says he got on the old Government Trail to San Carlos at "Second Water". Could Monroy's ranch be Second Water, or is there an inconsistency here? Thanks, Sluicebox
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Joe Ribaudo
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Monroy's Ranch
Sluicebox,
Someone will have that information for sure. Greg Davis would be your best bet.
Tio Monroy used to have a cattle ranch outside of Tempe, but I am not sure of the exact location.
Interesting historical note is that Rene Monroy, a cattle rancher in Ixhuatla'n de Madero in Mexico was assassinated at his ranch. What is interesting, is that Jesuit priests were accused of being the assassins.
Monroy is a very common name, especially in the ranching business.
Respectfully,
Joe
Someone will have that information for sure. Greg Davis would be your best bet.
Tio Monroy used to have a cattle ranch outside of Tempe, but I am not sure of the exact location.
Interesting historical note is that Rene Monroy, a cattle rancher in Ixhuatla'n de Madero in Mexico was assassinated at his ranch. What is interesting, is that Jesuit priests were accused of being the assassins.
Monroy is a very common name, especially in the ranching business.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Oops!
Sluicebox,
That was pretty dumb of me. I should have said Aurum or Greg Davis.
Very nice reply Aurum. Seems to me someone sent me a map showing that very trail out of Fort McDowell. There seems to be a trend working here.
Respectfully,
Joe
That was pretty dumb of me. I should have said Aurum or Greg Davis.
Very nice reply Aurum. Seems to me someone sent me a map showing that very trail out of Fort McDowell. There seems to be a trend working here.
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe:
Just wondering if you have this forum connected to a pager or something?
You always seem to be the quickest on the draw to reply--with good info and tips I might add. Thanks, Sluicebox
Aurum:
Thanks for that great information, it's just what I wanted to hear. If you can beleive the other story that Dick Holms told about following the Dutchman, then it seem to make sense that where he spent the night the first time would be "First Water", ( The Verde River) and where he spent the second night would be "Second Water" (Cottonwood Creek). Makes you wonder why they ever thought First Water referred to Government Well or Hackberry Spring? Any suggestions on where a guy might get his hands on a map showing the old Government trial referred to in your post?
It would be interesting to follow that trail from Cottonwood Creek. Thanks again for the great information, Sluicebox
Just wondering if you have this forum connected to a pager or something?
You always seem to be the quickest on the draw to reply--with good info and tips I might add. Thanks, Sluicebox
Aurum:
Thanks for that great information, it's just what I wanted to hear. If you can beleive the other story that Dick Holms told about following the Dutchman, then it seem to make sense that where he spent the night the first time would be "First Water", ( The Verde River) and where he spent the second night would be "Second Water" (Cottonwood Creek). Makes you wonder why they ever thought First Water referred to Government Well or Hackberry Spring? Any suggestions on where a guy might get his hands on a map showing the old Government trial referred to in your post?
It would be interesting to follow that trail from Cottonwood Creek. Thanks again for the great information, Sluicebox
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Joe Ribaudo
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Doc Jones
Aurum,
You realize, of course, that if someone were to collect your posts in this forum, they could put together a great book on the history of Arizona.
For those who are interested, Doc Jones was a partner of the Goldwater brothers in their frieght business cir. 1860s.
It seems we just can't leave that crossing of the Salt River at Cottonwood Canyon behind. Perhaps a few of you might want to start giving that crossing some serious thought in your searchs.
Sluicebox,
I look in on the site a lot, and if I have time will reply. I try to keep it "pithy".
You seem to be trying to find some fresh angles and approaches to this game. Good for you.
Respectfully,
Joe
You realize, of course, that if someone were to collect your posts in this forum, they could put together a great book on the history of Arizona.
For those who are interested, Doc Jones was a partner of the Goldwater brothers in their frieght business cir. 1860s.
It seems we just can't leave that crossing of the Salt River at Cottonwood Canyon behind. Perhaps a few of you might want to start giving that crossing some serious thought in your searchs.
Sluicebox,
I look in on the site a lot, and if I have time will reply. I try to keep it "pithy".
You seem to be trying to find some fresh angles and approaches to this game. Good for you.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Das Trails
Bill,
I am not sure why you said it that way, but you could be right.
The problem with trying to sort out the truth here, is that there is little evidence to support either trail. Until Dr. Glover discovered the "1866 Military Map", I believe there was no evidence, other than legend.
Obie Stoker said the Military Trail went past his claim. He said that back in 1924. It would appear from Dr. Glover's map, he was correct. If the map is accurate and authentic, and the LDM story (as we have heard it) is also true, than a great deal of popular search area in the Superstitions has been eliminated.
You will notice that Cottonwood Canyon is shown on Dr. Glovers Map. There is no indication on the map of the Salt River crossing in the area, nor does it show the trail that should take off for Fort McDowell. That is not really surprising, since the fort did not exist until Sept. of 1865 and the map which shows the trail from McDowell into the area of Cottonwood Canyon and from there into the Superstitions was not drawn until 1873.
Respectfully,
Joe
I am not sure why you said it that way, but you could be right.
The problem with trying to sort out the truth here, is that there is little evidence to support either trail. Until Dr. Glover discovered the "1866 Military Map", I believe there was no evidence, other than legend.
Obie Stoker said the Military Trail went past his claim. He said that back in 1924. It would appear from Dr. Glover's map, he was correct. If the map is accurate and authentic, and the LDM story (as we have heard it) is also true, than a great deal of popular search area in the Superstitions has been eliminated.
You will notice that Cottonwood Canyon is shown on Dr. Glovers Map. There is no indication on the map of the Salt River crossing in the area, nor does it show the trail that should take off for Fort McDowell. That is not really surprising, since the fort did not exist until Sept. of 1865 and the map which shows the trail from McDowell into the area of Cottonwood Canyon and from there into the Superstitions was not drawn until 1873.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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J. Ross Browne?
Aurum,
Do you believe that "Major Browne" is J. Ross Browne?
As far as I know, J. Ross Browne was in Arizona for only a short time in 1866. He was sick for most of that period. For approximatly 3 months he held a commission as Capt. and was under the command of General McDowell. He did not recover until April of 1866 and he immediately left for Washington, D.C. (Letters to Lucy Anne Mitchell Browne)
Respectfully,
Joe
Do you believe that "Major Browne" is J. Ross Browne?
As far as I know, J. Ross Browne was in Arizona for only a short time in 1866. He was sick for most of that period. For approximatly 3 months he held a commission as Capt. and was under the command of General McDowell. He did not recover until April of 1866 and he immediately left for Washington, D.C. (Letters to Lucy Anne Mitchell Browne)
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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J. Ross Browne
Aurum,
J. Ross Browne traveled with Charles Poston begining in Dec. of 1863
The account of that trip is given in "Adventures in the Apache Country", which was serially published in "Harper's Monthly", begining in Oct. of 1864. They later published the accounts in a book which was first released in 1868 or 1869.
Browne left Poston around the 23rd. or 24th. of March 1864. He left Arizona on the 29th, traveling through Los Angeles with San Francisco as his final destination.
On March 13, 1865 Browne was in San Francisco. He writes to R.B. Harris, Esq., that he needs work and is prepaired to go to "any country".
On May 28, 1865 he writes Lucy from Nevada. That letter and those that follow show that he was not in the military at any time before Augest/Sept. of 1865.
In "J. Ross Browne: His Letters, Journals & Writings" it is stated that: "For approximately three months Ross Browne held a commission as captain in the United States Army. It is not clear in what capacity he was traveling on the staff of general McDowell."
There are only two letters in the book which show his connection with the army. He was sick a good deal of this time.
In "Chains of Command", Constance Altshuler gives slight mention of Capt. Browne in a brief note (33) at the bottom of page 50. "J. Ross Browne, Captain of Co C, was succeded by McDowell's aide, John A Coster. Commissioning aides in the volunteers avoided taking officers away from regular army regiments."
J. Ross Browne kept pretty busy for a man with a propensity for getting the "Mountain Fever".
Respectfully,
Joe
J. Ross Browne traveled with Charles Poston begining in Dec. of 1863
The account of that trip is given in "Adventures in the Apache Country", which was serially published in "Harper's Monthly", begining in Oct. of 1864. They later published the accounts in a book which was first released in 1868 or 1869.
Browne left Poston around the 23rd. or 24th. of March 1864. He left Arizona on the 29th, traveling through Los Angeles with San Francisco as his final destination.
On March 13, 1865 Browne was in San Francisco. He writes to R.B. Harris, Esq., that he needs work and is prepaired to go to "any country".
On May 28, 1865 he writes Lucy from Nevada. That letter and those that follow show that he was not in the military at any time before Augest/Sept. of 1865.
In "J. Ross Browne: His Letters, Journals & Writings" it is stated that: "For approximately three months Ross Browne held a commission as captain in the United States Army. It is not clear in what capacity he was traveling on the staff of general McDowell."
There are only two letters in the book which show his connection with the army. He was sick a good deal of this time.
In "Chains of Command", Constance Altshuler gives slight mention of Capt. Browne in a brief note (33) at the bottom of page 50. "J. Ross Browne, Captain of Co C, was succeded by McDowell's aide, John A Coster. Commissioning aides in the volunteers avoided taking officers away from regular army regiments."
J. Ross Browne kept pretty busy for a man with a propensity for getting the "Mountain Fever".
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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J. Ross Brown
Aurum,
What you say makes perfect sense. I believe he was only given a captain's rank because Gen. McDowell made him his aide.
Many here are probably wondering why we are so enamored with J. Ross Browne. For a starter, he is a true giant in American history. His drawings and quotes from his writings are found in more books than you might believe. I could list a great many of them, but not here.
Here is a short quote from "Mark Twain and His Illustrators": "Clemens was also aware and most appreciative of the work of J. Ross Browne. As early as 1862 he had suggested to his mother that if she was curious about the Nevada territory she should look at Browne's pictures in the Harper's Monthly of the period. Clemens was even personally acquainted with the authorartist: in 1866 he had stayed with the Browne family during his California lecture tour. Many scholars have since observed that Mark Twain's writing style was reminiscent of, or had been influenced by, Browne's travel narratives."
I will leave this conversation (reluctantly) behind, before we get yelled at.
Take care,
Joe
What you say makes perfect sense. I believe he was only given a captain's rank because Gen. McDowell made him his aide.
Many here are probably wondering why we are so enamored with J. Ross Browne. For a starter, he is a true giant in American history. His drawings and quotes from his writings are found in more books than you might believe. I could list a great many of them, but not here.
Here is a short quote from "Mark Twain and His Illustrators": "Clemens was also aware and most appreciative of the work of J. Ross Browne. As early as 1862 he had suggested to his mother that if she was curious about the Nevada territory she should look at Browne's pictures in the Harper's Monthly of the period. Clemens was even personally acquainted with the authorartist: in 1866 he had stayed with the Browne family during his California lecture tour. Many scholars have since observed that Mark Twain's writing style was reminiscent of, or had been influenced by, Browne's travel narratives."
I will leave this conversation (reluctantly) behind, before we get yelled at.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Route Traveled
Bill,
It is hard to find any official documentation of a military or government trail pertaining to the area of the Superstition Mountains. What you do find is the route traveled. It is more likely that the two names were used by the locals, assuming that the stories are true at all. Personally, I have my doubts, considering the source.
Respectfully,
Joe
It is hard to find any official documentation of a military or government trail pertaining to the area of the Superstition Mountains. What you do find is the route traveled. It is more likely that the two names were used by the locals, assuming that the stories are true at all. Personally, I have my doubts, considering the source.
Respectfully,
Joe
monroy
Joe; I have seen 1 1863 arizona map at auction and the owner warned about the lack of lines or blank space on it and the selling price was about 500.00 bucks It started at over 200.00 bucks. The army units had a route that they routinly patrolled regularly is what I was getting at about the trail. I do not doubt that your uncle oobi had one going by his claim. The army would have patrolled the trail that went all the way thru the sup,s at some point or other? They would not just ride into the sup,s and then turn around and come out the same way they went in. They may have rode a big arc into/out of the sup,s. or something like that. Bill Merry Christmas Joe Aurum. DED and Everyone.... 
Does anybody know how far it is possible to travel in an average winter day with a pack mule or two? The distance between the Verde River and Cottonwood creek is about 13 or 14 miles- give or take a couple depending on the route. My question is: Do you think that Waltz camped at Cottonwood Creek because that was how far he could travel through that particular terrain, or because it was close to his limit of travel and there was water there? The Holms Manuscript also says he camped at cottonwood creek on his way back from the mine, so I'm assuming it is about the same distanace or farther. Anyone here ever traveled a day with a pack mule in the mountains? Regards, Sluicebox
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Joe Ribaudo
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Water
Sluicebox,
In the old days
you traveled from water to water in Arizona. If you followed a river, the going was easier and you could stop where you liked.
On every old map you will see "water" as one of the main marks. It could be a well, spring, depression in the bedrock (tank) or just about anything which would allow the traveler, and his animals, to quinch their thirst.
There are so many variables as to how far you could travel, that it seems foolish to state any given distance. My first trip into the Superstitions was on foot and leading a pack mule. It was a little different back then. A good deal of the time was spent working our way over and around boulders. You would need to see some clear ground, on occasion, to make five miles in a day.
Last March we met a man who was riding a fine mule, and I would guess he could make twenty miles without much trouble. It all depends on how many of those miles are on a forty-five degree angle and not through boulders.
Almost any book written by early travelers in this country will give you some idea of how far they could travel in a day on any type of terrain. The two best books on the subject, that I have found, are both by Douglas Preston. "Talking to the Grounds: One Family's Journey on Horseback Across the Sacred Land of the Navajo" and "Cities of Gold: A Journey Across the American Southwest". For an up close and personal account of the difficulties of traveling across "rough" country, on horseback, the later is a must read.
If any of the Feldmans are looking in, they can give you the best answer for the Supes.
Respectfully,
Joe
In the old days
you traveled from water to water in Arizona. If you followed a river, the going was easier and you could stop where you liked.On every old map you will see "water" as one of the main marks. It could be a well, spring, depression in the bedrock (tank) or just about anything which would allow the traveler, and his animals, to quinch their thirst.
There are so many variables as to how far you could travel, that it seems foolish to state any given distance. My first trip into the Superstitions was on foot and leading a pack mule. It was a little different back then. A good deal of the time was spent working our way over and around boulders. You would need to see some clear ground, on occasion, to make five miles in a day.
Last March we met a man who was riding a fine mule, and I would guess he could make twenty miles without much trouble. It all depends on how many of those miles are on a forty-five degree angle and not through boulders.
Almost any book written by early travelers in this country will give you some idea of how far they could travel in a day on any type of terrain. The two best books on the subject, that I have found, are both by Douglas Preston. "Talking to the Grounds: One Family's Journey on Horseback Across the Sacred Land of the Navajo" and "Cities of Gold: A Journey Across the American Southwest". For an up close and personal account of the difficulties of traveling across "rough" country, on horseback, the later is a must read.
If any of the Feldmans are looking in, they can give you the best answer for the Supes.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Gregory E. Davis
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- Location: Tempe, Arizona
Aurum: Many thanks for your historical information pertaining to the Monroy Ranch. For some reason I was under the impression that his ranch was located at Blue Point on the south side of the Salt River. It always feel good to get the record straight and I am making the correction in my notes. I started re-reading my copy of Arizona Cowboys and highly recommend it for everyone. The book is full of really good material. Makes one wonder what kind of book Dane Coolidge would have written about the Lost Dutchman Mine had he done so. For those interested in Pancho Monroy I suggest your read the following: 1. Arizona Days and Ways, September 4th. l949. Writer Laments Passing of Don Pancho Monroy by Roscoe G. Willson. 2. Arizona Republic, December 6, l935, Page 4, col. 8. Death Recalls Pioneer Life. 3. There is a great picture of Monroy in the files of the Arizona Historical Society at Tucson. Ref. number 8382. Take Care. Gregory E. Davis
Joe,
Thanks for the usual quick and informative reply. I wore my hiking boots a little thin this weekend checking the north end of the supers for clues that might coincide with the other clues and a trail turning south into the mountains. Sore feet convinced me to "let my fingers do the walking" first. I'm headed to the Arizona State University Library tomorrow as I have been informed that they have a good collection of old maps of Arizona. While I am there I'll see if I can also find the books by Preston. And, since others (Aurum and G. Davis) seem to have a very high opinion of Arizona Cowboys, I might as well look that one up too. I'd like to see the photo of the old Monroy Ranch. Would like to say thanks to all for the informative dialogue in response to this post.
Regards, Sluicebox
Thanks for the usual quick and informative reply. I wore my hiking boots a little thin this weekend checking the north end of the supers for clues that might coincide with the other clues and a trail turning south into the mountains. Sore feet convinced me to "let my fingers do the walking" first. I'm headed to the Arizona State University Library tomorrow as I have been informed that they have a good collection of old maps of Arizona. While I am there I'll see if I can also find the books by Preston. And, since others (Aurum and G. Davis) seem to have a very high opinion of Arizona Cowboys, I might as well look that one up too. I'd like to see the photo of the old Monroy Ranch. Would like to say thanks to all for the informative dialogue in response to this post.
Regards, Sluicebox
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Joe Ribaudo
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Electric Tools?
Sluicebox,
Thank you.
I have also purchased a copy of Arizona Cowboys. When you get the same book recommended by Aurum and Greg, its time to get the reading light on.
Respectfully,
Joe
Thank you.
I have also purchased a copy of Arizona Cowboys. When you get the same book recommended by Aurum and Greg, its time to get the reading light on.
Respectfully,
Joe