Santos,
It looks like no one wants to answer your question concerning Sims Ely.
I am a big fan of Mr. Ely, and have spent a little time learning just who he was.
Ely, was born in Overton County, Tennessee. He attended the College of Commerce in Bloomington, Illinois. I have never heard that he was ever a reporter, but that would seem likely, as he was editor of a newspaper in Hutchinson, Kansas. He also became the owner, editor and publisher of the Arizona Republic in Phoenix.
Created in 1890 and originally named "The Arizona Republican", the paper was a "political" arm of the Republican Party in Arizona.
The subsiquent owners make a nice "who's who" in the early history of the State.
Sims was a hard man, living in hard times. He made a few enemies and a lot of friends. Not always a great man to work for, he was as honest as the day is long. He was a man of extreem moral values, and believed he was always right.
His history in Arizona is just a small part of who the man was. Here is a quote from "Hoover Dam: An American Adventure" by, Joseph Stevens:
"Secretary of the Interior Ray Lyman Wilbur decided Boulder City and the Boulder Canyon Project Federal Reservation would be run by an appointed city manager. He wanted 'a highly skilled administrator, an executive who was supremely self-confident but not openly arrogant, a leader combining the attributes of firmness, impartiality, and incorruptibility, an authority figure who could command total respect without being hated or feared.'" (Emphisis in bold by Joe)
Sims Ely has taken a bit of a beating, along with his book, a number of times in this forum. I don't believe "disgusting" was one of the listed requirements from the Secretary of the Interior when he hired Ely for the job. He held that job for close to ten years until he retired in 1941.
I believe he died in a Rockville, MD sanitarium in 1954 at the age of 92. If so, that may call into question some of the "signed" first editions of his book, to people living in Phoenix at the time.
There are others here, who will know if I have strayed from the truth in this post. If I have, it was not knowingly.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Once Upon A Time In Arizona ...
joe ribuado,
thanks for your reply. although in an earlier post i stated i didnt want to read any further books on the subject, i did in fact go back on that and got both elys book and a book entitled the killer mountains from the library.I Read elys work and found it enjoyable,however ,having a lot of time on my hands at present, ive tried,in a limited way, to cross check on some of his statements. The conclusions i came to (hopefully correctly) are thius:H is work is seriously flawed.at best. maybe they were genuine mistakes ,i have no way of knowing. a few of the errors/lies/ or whatever include; the trail up bluff springs mt, carefully constructed so as to be hidden from view from below...is indeed nothing of the sort. the doctor thorne story was utter balderdash,i believe,and this is from an outside source, that the flat top mountain he describes isnt anywhere near the area he vaguely described.As for the racetrack ....it really deserves no comment. theres several other questionable events too . Now i know every author indulges in creative writing to a greater or lesser degree.,hence my comparing ely in a way to the journalists involved with the middaugh case.
the author of the killer mountains ,as did dr glover, start his book with the time homnoured method ,usual in these works of stating that he began investigating with the opinion that there was no truth in the legend, but ended up us a believer.In my opinion theres no need to use these methods to increase the "believability" of a story.If there is substance to a tale it will stand on its own merits.
You were indeed the only one to answer the post, i appreciate that.
kind regards
thanks for your reply. although in an earlier post i stated i didnt want to read any further books on the subject, i did in fact go back on that and got both elys book and a book entitled the killer mountains from the library.I Read elys work and found it enjoyable,however ,having a lot of time on my hands at present, ive tried,in a limited way, to cross check on some of his statements. The conclusions i came to (hopefully correctly) are thius:H is work is seriously flawed.at best. maybe they were genuine mistakes ,i have no way of knowing. a few of the errors/lies/ or whatever include; the trail up bluff springs mt, carefully constructed so as to be hidden from view from below...is indeed nothing of the sort. the doctor thorne story was utter balderdash,i believe,and this is from an outside source, that the flat top mountain he describes isnt anywhere near the area he vaguely described.As for the racetrack ....it really deserves no comment. theres several other questionable events too . Now i know every author indulges in creative writing to a greater or lesser degree.,hence my comparing ely in a way to the journalists involved with the middaugh case.
the author of the killer mountains ,as did dr glover, start his book with the time homnoured method ,usual in these works of stating that he began investigating with the opinion that there was no truth in the legend, but ended up us a believer.In my opinion theres no need to use these methods to increase the "believability" of a story.If there is substance to a tale it will stand on its own merits.
You were indeed the only one to answer the post, i appreciate that.
kind regards
9er
I have a pretty good imagination, but I'll be darned if I can imagine where you are coming from or where you are going with that one! Truth be known, it was Ely's integrity that kept him from telling what he knew.
Ely's book in my opinion, is by far the most entertaining book ever written on the subject. But it falls way short of other more recent publications in the presentation of accurate historical documentation of information.
just my opinion,
redison
I have a pretty good imagination, but I'll be darned if I can imagine where you are coming from or where you are going with that one! Truth be known, it was Ely's integrity that kept him from telling what he knew.
Ely's book in my opinion, is by far the most entertaining book ever written on the subject. But it falls way short of other more recent publications in the presentation of accurate historical documentation of information.
just my opinion,
redison
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Joe Ribaudo
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?
Redison,
You said:
"In all fairness I have not really completed "THAT MUCH" reading on the subject. I guess you might say I have merely scratched the surface. I do however know the difference between quality material and information, and run of the mill pulp and fiction when I see it."
And now you say:
"Ely's book in my opinion, is by far the most entertaining book ever written on the subject. But it falls way short of other more recent publications in the presentation of accurate historical documentation of information."
It would seem you have done a lot of reading between these two posts.
Santos,
You are correct concerning the book. Ely did not "spill his guts" in the contents. There was a reason for that, as a number of the members have pointed out in the past, Redison being the latest.
Much of what Ely, as well as Jim Bark, wrote, were stories from other sources and did not originate with them. There is a bit of "fill" in most books. Nothing in the book rises to the level of "balderdash".
Sims does not say: " the trail up bluff springs mt, carefully constructed so as to be hidden from view from below". (Emphasis in bold by Joe)
The "flat top mountain" is in the area Ely describes. It's may, however, not be exactly as he describes it. Late 49'er may want to lead you to that spot. Perhaps he already has.
I am with you on the "racetrack".
Respectfully,
Joe
You said:
"In all fairness I have not really completed "THAT MUCH" reading on the subject. I guess you might say I have merely scratched the surface. I do however know the difference between quality material and information, and run of the mill pulp and fiction when I see it."
And now you say:
"Ely's book in my opinion, is by far the most entertaining book ever written on the subject. But it falls way short of other more recent publications in the presentation of accurate historical documentation of information."
It would seem you have done a lot of reading between these two posts.
Santos,
You are correct concerning the book. Ely did not "spill his guts" in the contents. There was a reason for that, as a number of the members have pointed out in the past, Redison being the latest.
Much of what Ely, as well as Jim Bark, wrote, were stories from other sources and did not originate with them. There is a bit of "fill" in most books. Nothing in the book rises to the level of "balderdash".
Sims does not say: " the trail up bluff springs mt, carefully constructed so as to be hidden from view from below". (Emphasis in bold by Joe)
The "flat top mountain" is in the area Ely describes. It's may, however, not be exactly as he describes it. Late 49'er may want to lead you to that spot. Perhaps he already has.
I am with you on the "racetrack".
Respectfully,
Joe
Re: ?
[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]Redison,
You said:
"In all fairness I have not really completed "THAT MUCH" reading on the subject. I guess you might say I have merely scratched the surface. I do however know the difference between quality material and information, and run of the mill pulp and fiction when I see it."
And now you say:
"Ely's book in my opinion, is by far the most entertaining book ever written on the subject. But it falls way short of other more recent publications in the presentation of accurate historical documentation of information."
It would seem you have done a lot of reading between these two posts.
Joe,
You Betch'ya!
I have access to a bottomless pit of information.
Bothers you doesn't it?
redison
You said:
"In all fairness I have not really completed "THAT MUCH" reading on the subject. I guess you might say I have merely scratched the surface. I do however know the difference between quality material and information, and run of the mill pulp and fiction when I see it."
And now you say:
"Ely's book in my opinion, is by far the most entertaining book ever written on the subject. But it falls way short of other more recent publications in the presentation of accurate historical documentation of information."
It would seem you have done a lot of reading between these two posts.
Joe,
You Betch'ya!
I have access to a bottomless pit of information.
Bothers you doesn't it?
redison
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The "Bottomless Pit"
Redison,
"You Betch'ya!
I have access to a bottomless pit of information.
Bothers you doesn't it?"
Not in the least. I believe "pit" describes (just about) everything you have passed along here.
Other than hawking a pamphlet/booklet, I have no idea why you are wasting your time here, again.
Did you give up on your "pit" in the Supes, or are you just bored spending all of those "proceeds"?
I don't really give much thought to any of your "contributions" here, as there is just not that much to think about. No doubt there are some members who are hanging on your every word.
Joe
"You Betch'ya!
I have access to a bottomless pit of information.
Bothers you doesn't it?"
Not in the least. I believe "pit" describes (just about) everything you have passed along here.
Other than hawking a pamphlet/booklet, I have no idea why you are wasting your time here, again.
Did you give up on your "pit" in the Supes, or are you just bored spending all of those "proceeds"?I don't really give much thought to any of your "contributions" here, as there is just not that much to think about. No doubt there are some members who are hanging on your every word.
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
reluctant
For Example;
If Ely and Bark were reluctant to come forward with all info they knew and the people they acquired info from, including the Petrasches, did the same then the real story of the L.D.M. is always floating in thin air. Just a thought that is obvious but needs repeating.
There is much to learn from early books, but you have to read from a different perspective than new books. It sometimes seems weird that we can know more about a subject the more time passes.
Respectfully,
Jesse
If Ely and Bark were reluctant to come forward with all info they knew and the people they acquired info from, including the Petrasches, did the same then the real story of the L.D.M. is always floating in thin air. Just a thought that is obvious but needs repeating.
There is much to learn from early books, but you have to read from a different perspective than new books. It sometimes seems weird that we can know more about a subject the more time passes.
Respectfully,
Jesse
once upon a time in the sup,s
Joe you just can not stay out of trouble can you??? 8O Bill711 8) 8)
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Who, Me?
Bill,
You have been absent for awhile.
I have always been a lightning rod for "trouble". Never one to tap dance around obvious falsehoods, of any breed, I speak my mind. There is a certain type out there that can't take that kind of blunt truth. They want a world which is "kinder and gentler", where everyone gets a pass, no matter what.
In this particular forum, as well as most others, those people would never sign their real name to a post. Those who are polite and knowledgeable don't need to sign a name for their thoughts. That's because they are seldom wrong, and people respect them. Others, who are obvious frauds, have just enough intelligence not to put a signature to their lies.
I am seldom ashamed by what I have said. "Seldom" is the key word there. When I have made a mistake or misspoke, you will find I have no problem admitting my mistake, or apologizing if I have (wrongly) insulted someone.
All of that spells T R O U B L E.
Respectfully,
Joe
You have been absent for awhile.
I have always been a lightning rod for "trouble". Never one to tap dance around obvious falsehoods, of any breed, I speak my mind. There is a certain type out there that can't take that kind of blunt truth. They want a world which is "kinder and gentler", where everyone gets a pass, no matter what.
In this particular forum, as well as most others, those people would never sign their real name to a post. Those who are polite and knowledgeable don't need to sign a name for their thoughts. That's because they are seldom wrong, and people respect them. Others, who are obvious frauds, have just enough intelligence not to put a signature to their lies.
I am seldom ashamed by what I have said. "Seldom" is the key word there. When I have made a mistake or misspoke, you will find I have no problem admitting my mistake, or apologizing if I have (wrongly) insulted someone.
All of that spells T R O U B L E.
Respectfully,
Joe
once upon a time in arizona
Yes Joe; I added some stuff to my tube and it tightened up on me so much I couldn,t get a message out. I wanted to clap for the knun on the warrant, he got it as correct as WE are able to get it without the FULL papers. I see you got you some bunghole I know one of them needed it real good. I heard you boy,s had some floods out there? Bill ANNOUCEMENT PETER; The Big Apple has come to Oklahoma!! They are advertizing the Petier Pulled Pork BBQ Slamwitches over at Poe-Toe Oklahoma now. So I guess we are moving on up. To what I do not know?? bill 
ANNOUCEMENT PETER; The Big Apple has come to Oklahoma!! They are advertizing the Petier Pulled Pork BBQ Slamwitches over at Poe-Toe Oklahoma now. So I guess we are moving on up. To what I do not know?? bill -
Joe Ribaudo
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Write On
Bill,
I think a number of people summed up the "warrant" topic well, including Knun.
We have more than our share of "bungholes" here. so it is difficult to cull one out of the herd.
Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe
I think a number of people summed up the "warrant" topic well, including Knun.
We have more than our share of "bungholes" here. so it is difficult to cull one out of the herd.
Take care.
Respectfully,
Joe
reluctant
July 11, 2005
Ely knew this day would always come. "their mules had been killed or captured; and they themselves, except for a fortunate few who managed to escape, were casualties...This tragic episode is unquestionably the most significant in the history of the Lost Dutchman," Sims Ely, "The Lost Dutchman Mine".
Why is this the most significant episode in the history of the LDM? Not because the Apache`s succeeded but because they failed. Because they failed a son was born and a life was lived. A man returned to the woman he loved. And together they built a life. A good one. That is the real history of the Superstitutions. A story that is grounded in the human heart. A history not grounded in greed.
Why is Ely`s book the most accurate? He always knew how the search would end.
Wish all of you a happy summer until July. Hope someone takes the time to work the coordinates. You will be pleasently surprised. For me it is off to the Sierras. You folks have pretty county down there but too many critters. All kinds. Prefer a bit more water.
Good Luck
Late49er
Ely knew this day would always come. "their mules had been killed or captured; and they themselves, except for a fortunate few who managed to escape, were casualties...This tragic episode is unquestionably the most significant in the history of the Lost Dutchman," Sims Ely, "The Lost Dutchman Mine".
Why is this the most significant episode in the history of the LDM? Not because the Apache`s succeeded but because they failed. Because they failed a son was born and a life was lived. A man returned to the woman he loved. And together they built a life. A good one. That is the real history of the Superstitutions. A story that is grounded in the human heart. A history not grounded in greed.
Why is Ely`s book the most accurate? He always knew how the search would end.
Wish all of you a happy summer until July. Hope someone takes the time to work the coordinates. You will be pleasently surprised. For me it is off to the Sierras. You folks have pretty county down there but too many critters. All kinds. Prefer a bit more water.
Good Luck
Late49er
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Ely
Santos,
Looking back over these posts, I realized I misspoke when I wrote the following concerning Sims Ely:
"He also became the owner, editor and publisher of the Arizona Republic in Phoenix."
I should have said be became co-owner, editor and publisher of the Arizona Republic.
Ely made his first moves to buy the newspaper in the spring of 1909.
He talked to a number of friends, including: Dwight Heard, Frank Alkire and Roy Goodrich about funding for the purchase. There was some interest, but Ely wanted to own "half interest in the property....".
He approached friends in Denver, but the time restraints on the purchase
left little room for raising the funds. He returned to Phoenix and talked to an old friend, Stephen Higley. They struck a deal and became equal partners in the newspaper. I believe the price paid was around $100,000.
Twenty-two months after the purchase, a disenchanted Ely became the catalyst in attempting to sell the newspaper. In December of 1911 he sold his share to Higley.
Respectfully,
Joe
Looking back over these posts, I realized I misspoke when I wrote the following concerning Sims Ely:
"He also became the owner, editor and publisher of the Arizona Republic in Phoenix."
I should have said be became co-owner, editor and publisher of the Arizona Republic.
Ely made his first moves to buy the newspaper in the spring of 1909.
He talked to a number of friends, including: Dwight Heard, Frank Alkire and Roy Goodrich about funding for the purchase. There was some interest, but Ely wanted to own "half interest in the property....".
He approached friends in Denver, but the time restraints on the purchase
left little room for raising the funds. He returned to Phoenix and talked to an old friend, Stephen Higley. They struck a deal and became equal partners in the newspaper. I believe the price paid was around $100,000.
Twenty-two months after the purchase, a disenchanted Ely became the catalyst in attempting to sell the newspaper. In December of 1911 he sold his share to Higley.
Respectfully,
Joe