Grayhair,
No need to guess at the price of gold. From 1879 to well past 1900, gold was $20.67 an oz.
There is not a great deal of difference between the types of ounces. There are 480 grains in a Troy ounce and 437.5 grains in the avoirdupois ounce. It would seem to be a moot point, since we don't really know the purity of the Waltz gold. All calculations would be relative.
Respectfully,
Joe
Once Upon A Time In Arizona ...
once upon a time
Aurum; Let,s make a GOLD count on Jake; 1st 7000.00 to sister; 2nd 1500.00 to Mrs Thomas with extra to get some cash for himself; 3rd the gold found under his bed! SO we have quite a tidy sum of gold here, that we do know of? There may have been over 100 lb,s of gold ore to me??? so much for highgrading or finding it laying on the ground??? bill 
once upon a time
Dr. Glover; What was the fight over the gold/silver price being set at 16 to one when they were setting up our monitary system in the late 1800,s? I remember that it would have put the silver mines out of work? Didn,t it take place in the late 1880,s or about there? I think it was the gold producer trying to take over the money system. They and a few bought politicians were trying to bamboozal the silver producers by going to a gold only standerd. bill
once upon on a time
Aurum; I think that wells fargo had a BIG bank established in San Francisco In the 1840,s/50,and still do and I think they were set up as a national Bank first. Bill
Once upon a time in Arizona
xx
Last edited by Aurum on Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Moot Point?
Joe & Aurum,
Thank you for setting me straight back there regarding the true measurement of gold. I never did know the finite differences.
Grayhair
Thank you for setting me straight back there regarding the true measurement of gold. I never did know the finite differences.
Grayhair
once upon a time
Aurum; I might point out that the wells fargo coach system was the first bus system=carried the federal mail=also transferred money. I do not know if they operated any telegraph or not. Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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A Spike Through The Heart
Aurum and Bill,
Anyone know just how much Wells Fargo was involved in moving ore from Arizona after 1861? I have no idea, but that information might be interesting.
Respectfully,
Joe
Anyone know just how much Wells Fargo was involved in moving ore from Arizona after 1861? I have no idea, but that information might be interesting.
Respectfully,
Joe
once upon a time
Joe; I think by that time they had smelters and processed the ore down to ingot form and probley sent it by coach up until they had rail service. Wells fargo always insured their freight for its value, I beleive. So the mine would send it with them, I would think. Bank,s sent their money by wells fargo too. Bill
once upon a time
Aurum, Joe I might add that the wells fargo continued their transporting wealth by rail car too... Tom I want to thank you for the info on the 16 to one gold/silver/ currency exchange in our currency. I could just bearly remember about it BUT not any details of it. I had a quick lesson in our american history class about it in the 7th or 8th grade. I wonder if they still teach anything like that now? I kind of dought it. bill here,s something for you joe 
here,s something for you joe once upon a time
Joe, Aurum I might add that there was a whole lot of gold taken out of calif. San francisco by ship" a whole lot" BUT it was alittle risky, becuase most of the boats in service were not sea worthy and most were greatly over loaded and racing with one and nother, no lifeboats, alot was lost. They had to carry it either around the horn or transport it by mule across the ithmus at panama during which the land and sea pirates had a field day with them. The ships brought back goods passengers and siver coinage since they only had a few private mints operating at the time. bill Alot of the idiots carried their raw gold in money belts and when they had trouble and had to swim they went staight to the bottem, where if they shipped it it would have been insured by the ships insurer. So these people really lost big time for their greed.
Alot of the idiots carried their raw gold in money belts and when they had trouble and had to swim they went staight to the bottem, where if they shipped it it would have been insured by the ships insurer. So these people really lost big time for their greed.
Last edited by bill711 on Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Gold Stuff
Bill,
Thanks for that information.
Respectfully,
Joe
Thanks for that information.
Respectfully,
Joe
www.dutchhunter.com
Hi Joe and everyone else I haven't met. Just a heads up to say dutchhunter.com is up and running, forum and all. If you haven't seen it yet you might be interested. Be welcome.
Jesse J. Feldman
Jesse J. Feldman
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
New Ride?
Hello Jesse,
Hope you and the family are all well and getting the bank vault enlarged.
Don't go trying to bury the loot at the O.K., O.K.? As you know, I have a very good metal detector.
What are you doing riding a computer, horse go lame?
Some of the best memories of my life, started out following your string into the Supes. The thing I will miss most, is you guys asking, "Are you planning on taking this too?"
My usual reply was, "Well ya, I wanted to. Do we need another horse?" 
Your having to make a second trip in, with your mom, last March was the best.
To quote a man, I consider a lifelong friend: "May all of your dreams be golden".
Joe "Ribs"
Hope you and the family are all well and getting the bank vault enlarged.
Don't go trying to bury the loot at the O.K., O.K.? As you know, I have a very good metal detector.
What are you doing riding a computer, horse go lame?
Some of the best memories of my life, started out following your string into the Supes. The thing I will miss most, is you guys asking, "Are you planning on taking this too?"
My usual reply was, "Well ya, I wanted to. Do we need another horse?" Your having to make a second trip in, with your mom, last March was the best. To quote a man, I consider a lifelong friend: "May all of your dreams be golden".
Joe "Ribs"
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Crazy Horse
Jesse,
I thought your horse was already fixed.
It's no wonder he's acting "crazy". It's been awhile, but I suppose I could give you a hand next time I am down that way. I do have a good Jack Knife, so no need to buy any elaborate equipment for the job. Maybe your dad will hold him for us.
Respectfully,
"Doc" Joe
I thought your horse was already fixed.
It's no wonder he's acting "crazy". It's been awhile, but I suppose I could give you a hand next time I am down that way. I do have a good Jack Knife, so no need to buy any elaborate equipment for the job. Maybe your dad will hold him for us. Respectfully,
"Doc" Joe
Joe
The funny thing is that my horses' name is "Doc", and he is already fixed so put your knife away. You might cut the wrong thing. Besides that it's probably dull as a Iowa farmer. We call him Doc because it's a name to get familiar with when you ride him. A healthy respect for his power is needed. Give him direction along with talk and there is nothing to worry about. Though, if I need to step on his head I will. Now, this is the most I will be on this computer so, don't expect any replies on a regular basis. I will check in once in a while. Good to hear from you.
Im sure this forum is more for treasure talk than entertainment, so don't get your panties in a bind, next time I will focus on that.
Jesse J. Feldman
The funny thing is that my horses' name is "Doc", and he is already fixed so put your knife away. You might cut the wrong thing. Besides that it's probably dull as a Iowa farmer. We call him Doc because it's a name to get familiar with when you ride him. A healthy respect for his power is needed. Give him direction along with talk and there is nothing to worry about. Though, if I need to step on his head I will. Now, this is the most I will be on this computer so, don't expect any replies on a regular basis. I will check in once in a while. Good to hear from you.
Im sure this forum is more for treasure talk than entertainment, so don't get your panties in a bind, next time I will focus on that.
Jesse J. Feldman
Transmitting Draft on Accountable Warrant
Transmitting Draft on Accountable Warrant
I have read all of the posts and it seems like the ground has been pretty well covered (I began to understand the procedure when Aurum walked me through the process of getting gold changed to money and transported to someone in Kansas - Missouri.)
I would like to address a couple of other items.
I think most of you have already agreed that the date should be 1881 instead of 1887. But I think the following proves it.
The signature of the Treasurer U. S. appears to me to be a part of the Treasury Form. I visited our U. S. Treasury Web site and they had a list of all of the Treasurers of the U. S.
This is a different position than the Secretary of the Treasury which I hadn't realized, DUH! If you look at a dollar bill you will find both the signature of the Secretary and the Treasurer.
The time frame that we are interested in has some errors on the Web Site and you have to use your imagination. I did report the errors but I expect little action.
James Gilfillan (The name on our document) served as the Treasurer under Hayes, Garfield and Arthur. By my interpolations, I concluded that Gilfillan served from June 30, 1877 to April 30, 1885. Hence the 1881 date is correct.
The second item is in regard to A. Hadley who signed as the Cashier.
From William G. Cutler's History of the State of Kansas (Pub 1883) - There is a biography on one Washington Hadley in Douglas County, Kansas. Below is an excerpt. (This History is online)
"In 1865, he removed to Kansas with the intention of embarking in the banking business. He settled in Lawrence and established the National Bank of Lawrence, of which he was the first President, and was for many years (in connection with his son Albert) the active and responsible manager and is still a director."
Since the History was published in 1883 it is almost definite that our A. Hadley is one Albert Hadley.
From a Genealogy Site, we can find some additional information that is referenced from "History of Whittier, California" Published 1933. The except is included below.
"Washington Hadley died December 21, 1911 and was succeeded in the presidency of the First National Bank [Whittier] by his son, Albert Hadley, who had been associated with his farther in the bank of Lawrence, KS and who was for many years cashier of the National Bank of California in Los Angeles. He was a very popular banker, who deserved and received the confidence of a wide circle of friends. At his death his son Fred W. Hadley became president."
Hopefully someone will wring some more out of this Warrant. I'm still trying to digest some of the posts!
Novice
I have read all of the posts and it seems like the ground has been pretty well covered (I began to understand the procedure when Aurum walked me through the process of getting gold changed to money and transported to someone in Kansas - Missouri.)
I would like to address a couple of other items.
I think most of you have already agreed that the date should be 1881 instead of 1887. But I think the following proves it.
The signature of the Treasurer U. S. appears to me to be a part of the Treasury Form. I visited our U. S. Treasury Web site and they had a list of all of the Treasurers of the U. S.
This is a different position than the Secretary of the Treasury which I hadn't realized, DUH! If you look at a dollar bill you will find both the signature of the Secretary and the Treasurer.
The time frame that we are interested in has some errors on the Web Site and you have to use your imagination. I did report the errors but I expect little action.
James Gilfillan (The name on our document) served as the Treasurer under Hayes, Garfield and Arthur. By my interpolations, I concluded that Gilfillan served from June 30, 1877 to April 30, 1885. Hence the 1881 date is correct.
The second item is in regard to A. Hadley who signed as the Cashier.
From William G. Cutler's History of the State of Kansas (Pub 1883) - There is a biography on one Washington Hadley in Douglas County, Kansas. Below is an excerpt. (This History is online)
"In 1865, he removed to Kansas with the intention of embarking in the banking business. He settled in Lawrence and established the National Bank of Lawrence, of which he was the first President, and was for many years (in connection with his son Albert) the active and responsible manager and is still a director."
Since the History was published in 1883 it is almost definite that our A. Hadley is one Albert Hadley.
From a Genealogy Site, we can find some additional information that is referenced from "History of Whittier, California" Published 1933. The except is included below.
"Washington Hadley died December 21, 1911 and was succeeded in the presidency of the First National Bank [Whittier] by his son, Albert Hadley, who had been associated with his farther in the bank of Lawrence, KS and who was for many years cashier of the National Bank of California in Los Angeles. He was a very popular banker, who deserved and received the confidence of a wide circle of friends. At his death his son Fred W. Hadley became president."
Hopefully someone will wring some more out of this Warrant. I'm still trying to digest some of the posts!
Novice
Novice,
Great job! Time to change your screen name after that!
Now where does the confirmation of 1881 get us?
Waltz was able to accumulate $7,000 by 1881 at (I think) $35/oz. Today that would be 10X or approx. $700, 000 give or take a few ten-thousands.
Anyone still think he highgraded the Vulture?
Great job! Time to change your screen name after that!
Now where does the confirmation of 1881 get us?
Waltz was able to accumulate $7,000 by 1881 at (I think) $35/oz. Today that would be 10X or approx. $700, 000 give or take a few ten-thousands.
Anyone still think he highgraded the Vulture?
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Das Mystery
As I watch the veritable explosion of knowledgeable "newbies", I have come to the conclusion that they are not "newbies" at all. Not that it makes any difference, I am glad to see them back under any name.
Mr. Novice has really done his homework. I would have bet there was only one person who had access to that kind of information. I would still make that bet. There are so many old players swirling around the conversations with new names, that I feel compeled to try my other puppies name for awhile.
49'er has stated that "the waterfall has always been the key", I don't believe that is the case at all. The real history that surrounds the LDM and the Superstition Mountains has always been the key. The stories are, just the stories.
There are facts, but no one want's to look at them. The stories are much more interesting than the facts and more fun to follow.
Very good posts.
Respectfully,
Joe
Mr. Novice has really done his homework. I would have bet there was only one person who had access to that kind of information. I would still make that bet. There are so many old players swirling around the conversations with new names, that I feel compeled to try my other puppies name for awhile.
49'er has stated that "the waterfall has always been the key", I don't believe that is the case at all. The real history that surrounds the LDM and the Superstition Mountains has always been the key. The stories are, just the stories.
There are facts, but no one want's to look at them. The stories are much more interesting than the facts and more fun to follow.
Very good posts.
Respectfully,
Joe
Thanks for the kind words.
Joe, please don't get me wrapped up in the intrigue of the site. I am who I say I am.
My wife and I were in Arizona for a few weeks this spring and we hiked a couple of days in the Superstitions and bought a couple of books on the LDM. I had read a book by Robert Blair 20 years ago and that was the extent of our involvement with the LDM.
As far as the post, anyone can duplicate the information by spending two or three hours on the internet. I would certainly appreciate someone looking over my shoulder and pointing out if I have said something that doesn't add up. The best thing that will happen is that it will get cleared up and the worst is that we can agree to disagree and continue.
The U. S.Treasurer information:
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/history/treasurers/
As I said there is an error in the information on the site but if you use the terms of the Presidents he served under and the terms of the preceding and following Treasurers, I think you will come up with my dates.
The A. Hadley Information:
I found him in the 1880 Census in Lawrence, Douglas County, Kansas with the occupation of Banker. This is a free site sponsered by the LDS.
http://www.familysearch.org/
From the Census I knew his first name was Albert and his wife was Mary. I went to the Roots Web Genealogy site (World Family Connect) and found his genealogy.
http://www.rootsweb.com/
I did some additional checking on some the genealogy references about the Hadley family and from this came the post.
I hope some of you will verify the information!
Just another minor item on the Warrant.
August 24, 1881 was on a Wednesday and of course the August 27, 1881 date was on a Saturday. Just checking to make sure none of the dates were on Sunday. I guess the bank was open on Saturday.
Thanks Again,
Novice
Joe, please don't get me wrapped up in the intrigue of the site. I am who I say I am.
My wife and I were in Arizona for a few weeks this spring and we hiked a couple of days in the Superstitions and bought a couple of books on the LDM. I had read a book by Robert Blair 20 years ago and that was the extent of our involvement with the LDM.
As far as the post, anyone can duplicate the information by spending two or three hours on the internet. I would certainly appreciate someone looking over my shoulder and pointing out if I have said something that doesn't add up. The best thing that will happen is that it will get cleared up and the worst is that we can agree to disagree and continue.
The U. S.Treasurer information:
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/history/treasurers/
As I said there is an error in the information on the site but if you use the terms of the Presidents he served under and the terms of the preceding and following Treasurers, I think you will come up with my dates.
The A. Hadley Information:
I found him in the 1880 Census in Lawrence, Douglas County, Kansas with the occupation of Banker. This is a free site sponsered by the LDS.
http://www.familysearch.org/
From the Census I knew his first name was Albert and his wife was Mary. I went to the Roots Web Genealogy site (World Family Connect) and found his genealogy.
http://www.rootsweb.com/
I did some additional checking on some the genealogy references about the Hadley family and from this came the post.
I hope some of you will verify the information!
Just another minor item on the Warrant.
August 24, 1881 was on a Wednesday and of course the August 27, 1881 date was on a Saturday. Just checking to make sure none of the dates were on Sunday. I guess the bank was open on Saturday.
Thanks Again,
Novice