S.C.
Thanks but don't hold me accountable for any of this "speculation" here. I ran out of first hand information way back there.
R
Spitzfelsen.....
Gravestone Clue
Wouldn't surprise me if Roger knows right where to find info about that clue. Another one I have been wanting to ask Roger about is.......
I read somewhere years ago about a rock the shape of a sitting Indian with a blanket over his head that marks the enterance to a mine on the side of the slope. That shape (to a different person looking it from a slightly different angle) might resemble a Gravestone?
R
I read somewhere years ago about a rock the shape of a sitting Indian with a blanket over his head that marks the enterance to a mine on the side of the slope. That shape (to a different person looking it from a slightly different angle) might resemble a Gravestone?
R
I would think that perhaps Rheiney spoke german, but was not able to read or write german. Take a simple phrase such as "Was ist Los?". My father in law will swear it literally means "Whats happening" as in a greeting like Hello. I have always been taught it means "what is wrong" or "what happened". My German came from a German tutor, his from military service during the seventies. Regardless of either its literal translation is something like "What is Loose". Rheiney may have felt that certain clues were better in german or more likely to be interpreted correctly in german. It may have been when asking about some clues and translating them back to Waltz there was confusion in what he exactly meant. Spitzfelsen could be a sharp pointed rock, a subtle rock, a ledge that juts out to a point or even possibly a pointed rock on a peak. Waltz could have been just referencing a peak or pointed rock outcropping that was particular to him. Being able to read what preceded this clue and followed it perhaps would set it straight. If Hermann and Rheiney were not astute in their Deutsche, Gottfried was. Without the original letter or list, I read a number of clues differently initially. My first reading of Spitzfelsen was of a cairn, natural or manmade that had a directional rock placed upon it. The clues are valid in my opinion, but incomplete in reference. As with most clues I am sure there is plenty being left out.
One other thing I would like to add. Dick Holmes was able to sit back with his story for a long period of time. In fact he waited until the scene cleared a bit before moving in to hunt for the mine. Julia obviously had the gift of gab, Rheiney may also have mentioned some clues or history. Dick Holmes may have operated on a few possible clues from Waltz and with additional hearsay built his story. That would explain a few similarities in the stories, but also explain the obvious differences. The Peter Backens story was a nice touch that probably was local gossip. The fact that no one ever stopped in and asked Miguel Peralta a few questions is a shame. Whatever Holmes and Roberts got from Waltz was far more succinct and brief. I do not believe the actual Holmes clues have been ever made public in their entirety. I also believe the same for the other camp, though those clues are more likely spread out between diffrent people unwilling to consolidate that information. The same problems that we deal with now, were going on then. We all sit on our little secrets and contemplate the conspiracy that surrounds us. If a lie fits our particular soloution, then the lie morphs into fact.
One other thing I would like to add. Dick Holmes was able to sit back with his story for a long period of time. In fact he waited until the scene cleared a bit before moving in to hunt for the mine. Julia obviously had the gift of gab, Rheiney may also have mentioned some clues or history. Dick Holmes may have operated on a few possible clues from Waltz and with additional hearsay built his story. That would explain a few similarities in the stories, but also explain the obvious differences. The Peter Backens story was a nice touch that probably was local gossip. The fact that no one ever stopped in and asked Miguel Peralta a few questions is a shame. Whatever Holmes and Roberts got from Waltz was far more succinct and brief. I do not believe the actual Holmes clues have been ever made public in their entirety. I also believe the same for the other camp, though those clues are more likely spread out between diffrent people unwilling to consolidate that information. The same problems that we deal with now, were going on then. We all sit on our little secrets and contemplate the conspiracy that surrounds us. If a lie fits our particular soloution, then the lie morphs into fact.
Sleeping INdian Squaw Map
I'm travelling and away from my LDM materials, but here are a few answeres to some questions:
TGH - Peter: Gravestone clue. Haven't heard o this one, but as pointed out by others you can find your rock of choice in the Supers.
Redison: Indian In Blanket Clue: The drawing/map of the Sleeping Lady Squaw Map is on this web site if you go to the main HOME link at the top of the page and then click on "MAPS". Scroll down about 30 pictures or so and you will come to "Sleeping Lady Squaw Map". I origianlly obtained a copy of this from Greg Davis' collection in the early 1990's and spent a little time on it and then filed it away. I haven't seen the Greg Davis article that WIZ references in the latest SMHS JOurnal. Will have to get this issue when I go on the LDM outing this fall.
On the German language clues, it could be that someone obtained the original or a copy of the letter that Rhinney sent to his fathter and brother that contained clues in German. Old Pete probably brought the original with him to Phoenix from Montana and it might have survived through the years.
I had a business associate from Munich, Germany, take a look at the german clues as he had some familiarity with Swabian which is in that area. Will have to look up what he gave me when I get home.
Roger
TGH - Peter: Gravestone clue. Haven't heard o this one, but as pointed out by others you can find your rock of choice in the Supers.
Redison: Indian In Blanket Clue: The drawing/map of the Sleeping Lady Squaw Map is on this web site if you go to the main HOME link at the top of the page and then click on "MAPS". Scroll down about 30 pictures or so and you will come to "Sleeping Lady Squaw Map". I origianlly obtained a copy of this from Greg Davis' collection in the early 1990's and spent a little time on it and then filed it away. I haven't seen the Greg Davis article that WIZ references in the latest SMHS JOurnal. Will have to get this issue when I go on the LDM outing this fall.
On the German language clues, it could be that someone obtained the original or a copy of the letter that Rhinney sent to his fathter and brother that contained clues in German. Old Pete probably brought the original with him to Phoenix from Montana and it might have survived through the years.
I had a business associate from Munich, Germany, take a look at the german clues as he had some familiarity with Swabian which is in that area. Will have to look up what he gave me when I get home.
Roger
Though the subject matter has evolved and moved on, this got passed by and wasn't commented on. CuMiner made a good point about the Bark notes that used to bother me. Helena was the first name of Gottfried Petrasch's wife, who would have been Rheineys mother. I do not know if Bark knew Julia that well other than several meetings. She was the first to give up looking for the mine. Rheiney searched for years afterwards. The confusion may have been because Julia was looking after Rheiney and was providing him with a home and job. Bark may have never understood the arrangement, there was miscommunication concerning it or it was an odd arrangement and that was the cover story.After Bark got to know Rhiney he may have confused the 2 different people. I never believed that Bark was very familiar with Julia, Sims Ely was later on though. This could be further confused by Gottfried working for Bark later and referring to Rheiney as his son and his wife who was named Helena.
As to the Waslh error I dont know if Bark was just going by the name phonetically or not. Bark was not writing a book persay, but notes. He was aware of the contents of the bag, but may have never perused them at his leisure. I believe the info from this incident came primarily after the theft. Even when handed the certificate by Gottfried, he may not have studied it, finding the moment very embarassing. Waltz's partner for the LDM is reputed to be Weiss,Weisner and/or Backen. Walsh to Waltz is easier to understand. Corbin refers to Rhinehardt, Rhiney and Reiney.The death certificate states Rhinehart. Glover refers to Rhinehart. Its not hard to see how things get confused. My Great Great Grandfathers name Was Elijah. However he wrote his name as Eliza. His handwriting is very clear and he was educated, but no one ever gets his name spelt right. Every geneaology book with his name has it wrong even after I have submitted documents showing otherwise. Even family members remain unconvinced though I have his signature as well as his wifes identical spelling of his name.
The fact that this wasn't changed would lead me to trust the notes more than if we saw changes in different versions to make them more valid with current thought. [/quote]
As to the Waslh error I dont know if Bark was just going by the name phonetically or not. Bark was not writing a book persay, but notes. He was aware of the contents of the bag, but may have never perused them at his leisure. I believe the info from this incident came primarily after the theft. Even when handed the certificate by Gottfried, he may not have studied it, finding the moment very embarassing. Waltz's partner for the LDM is reputed to be Weiss,Weisner and/or Backen. Walsh to Waltz is easier to understand. Corbin refers to Rhinehardt, Rhiney and Reiney.The death certificate states Rhinehart. Glover refers to Rhinehart. Its not hard to see how things get confused. My Great Great Grandfathers name Was Elijah. However he wrote his name as Eliza. His handwriting is very clear and he was educated, but no one ever gets his name spelt right. Every geneaology book with his name has it wrong even after I have submitted documents showing otherwise. Even family members remain unconvinced though I have his signature as well as his wifes identical spelling of his name.
The fact that this wasn't changed would lead me to trust the notes more than if we saw changes in different versions to make them more valid with current thought. [/quote]
Had a conversation at the park with a visiting German this morning. His English was thin, but after a while I asked about Spitzfelsen. He said it would be a sharp pointed mountain peak. He drew a picture and pointed to the White Tanks as to make his point. He was in his seventies and from East Germany if that helps. He did take a few moments to figure out what I meant. This could be because of my limited Deutsche and the sudden change in direction of the conversation. He wanted to know where and how far for a pack cigarettes up the street. His grand daughter was too shy to translate for us. I did not mention specifics, just a general translation of the term. The rest of the conversation was about soccer and the weather.