Spitzfelsen.....

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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redison
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Post by redison »

James,

You are working me into a corner here I can feel it coming. I'm just not certain which open space to head for and which corner to avoid. LOL

In all honesty, I have had difficulty with a number of Barks landmarks and directions for a long time. I've often wondered if Spangler didn't leave that copy of the Bark Notes in Aylor's camp while he went out into the mountains on purpose, or, would FOR a purpose be more correct?

I think my only safe corner here is why would Hermann divulge clues or directions to the Holmes camp? Unless of course it was for the same reason Spangler left the Bark Notes for Aylor to copy as considered above?

In that case, all one has left is the stone maps. And that isn't all bad.

redison
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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redison
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Post by redison »

P,

From pg 184 of "The Bible...)

"When Hermann realized the directions were too vague to get him to the mine he began to look for help. Shortly after the turn of the century Hermann approached Wm. Edwards and George Matthew Roberts..."

This is supposed to be when Hermann divulged the German clues to the Holmes camp.

Near the bottom of pg 188 the closing paragraph says:

"My great Aunt had occasion to talk with Rhinehart at the annual Pioneer Days picnic in 1933. Rhinehart told her the same story that Hermann had told her brother Wm. Edwards almost 30 yrs before."


I guess, according to this, they both passed the German clues to the Holmes camp.


Let's bounce this back and forth a bit and see what shakes out of it.

Let's assume CuMiner's train of thought is correct, stretch it a bit farther and say that Bark either knew nothing or did know the German clues and kept them secret.

Also assuming that Herman and Rhiney passed the German clues on as printed in "The Bible..." That would mean that the two individuals that told me the story about the German clues coming from a letter written to Waltz's sister lied to me. They ARE both Dutch Hunters, and Dutch Hunters have been known to lie. Maybe THEY were seeking attention and admiration or setting themselves up for some kind of financial gain? Anything is Possible.

From other sources I have heard that Brownie Holmes never harbored any ill feelings towards the Petrasches and made several attempts to bury the hatchet with all three of them. The Petraches supposedly were very rude to Brownie and rejected him.

What would they (the Petraches) have had to lose by befriending Brownie who had really personally done them no wrong if they had already divulged their secrets to the Holmes camp many years before?

Something is still cockeyed.

redison
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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redison
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Post by redison »

P

Although I make as strong a case as I can against the exchange of information between the Holmes and Petrasch camps, I would like to believe that at some time or another there was some kind of exchange. I have been shown an area that is almost impossible to deny that the Horse Map applies to. In the same canyon there are a number of landmarks that match some of the UNIQUE “Petrasch” landmarks that Estee Conatser placed so much faith in. That‘s not all, there are also things right there within sight of the other things that match some of the landmarks that are UNIQUE to the Holmes manuscript!

Now I am not talking about things two or three miles apart in the same canyon. I’m talking about things that can all be pointed out from one point at the top of the ridge. I assure you the hair on the back of your neck would stand up like mine did if you stood where I did and saw what I saw.

Here is something that CuMiner will like. Not a single clue from the Bark notes works anywhere within sight of this area, but if I tugged and stretched, I could make some of the landmarks from the German clues fit the trail leading into this area. The problem with that is, if you allow yourself to tug and stretch them they will work just about anywhere.

R
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

Redison,
It could well be that the Petrasches just didn't like Holmes, for reasons of their own. Maybe when Holmes tried to bury the hatchet, they thought he was sucking up to them.
I think TGH is right on target - Edwards and Roberts were a camp of their own. If Herman passed the GC to Edwards and Roberts, he may have thought that they wouldn't be passed on to Holmes. At that time, the Petrasches were still pretty sore at Holmes for (allegedly) stealing the gold from under Waltz's bed.
Were the clues written down at that time, or is there some way to be sure that the story Rhiney told in 1933 was actually the same? 30 years is a long time - that could account for the "spitzefelsen" business. Add to that, the fact(?) that Herman and Rhiney had a falling out at some point along the way and never talked to each other again.
If Holmes Sr. and Jr. had those clues and put faith in them, it seems odd that they would have ended up roaming the whole mountain range instead of concentrating on the area the clues point out. I suspect that either they didn't have them, or they didn't believe them.
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You know, you're right!

Post by Wiz »

Say, this forum really IS picking up some steam now! There's been more interesting exchange of ideas here in the last few days than in the preceding several months. It's getting fun again!
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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S.C.
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German Clues

Post by S.C. »

I have often wondered about the letter Rhiney wrote to Gotfried and Herman. The one convincing them to come back to Arizona and help with the search. As Thomas Glover pointed out in his book, it "must have been some letter." Because they came back to something they had abandoned.

I often thought the clues that came out of the Petrashes (in particular, Herman) that appeared subsequently later in other writers' works (like Bark, Ely, and Storm to name a few...) (and possibly appeared "garbled"...) - might have come more from the letter that Rhiney sent to Gotfried and Herman than from anything.

Could "that" letter be a source of the German clues?
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Wiz
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Waltzer

Post by Wiz »

Bob Garmin and Barney Barnard both said that Herman insisted Waltz's name was actually "Waltzer". Herman also apparently said he knew Waltz, although he couldn't have. If this pronunciation was a result of a German accent, it seems like Herman would know that, and realize the name was really Waltz. Why didn't Rhiney straighten him out on this? Maybe neither of them really spoke German very well? It could be that Rhiney actually thought the name was Waltzer.
Were Rhiney and Herman raised in Germany? (I'm probably the only one here who doesn't know the answer to this). But how good was their German, really? I know quite a number of Mexican folks who can't speak Spanish worth a darn - could the same have been true of Rhiney? This might help explain why some of the GC's seem a little garbled.

Just thinking out loud.
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

TGH,

(lol) Well, I know that, but one of them (I think Barnard) printed a letter written by Herman in which he swears the name was Waltzer. One wonders why he would bother writing such a letter, unless he was one of those guys that just won't admit to being mistaken. (Maybe pig-headedness is a requirement for Dutch hunting?)
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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redison
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Re: German Clues

Post by redison »

S.C. wrote:I have often wondered about the letter Rhiney wrote to Gotfried and Herman. The one convincing them to come back to Arizona and help with the search. As Thomas Glover pointed out in his book, it "must have been some letter." Because they came back to something they had abandoned.
S.C.

I can shed a little more light on that subject.

Earl Arthur Hatt an ordained Minister and part time school teacher was the Great-Grandfather of Jim Hatt. According to the story told to me by Jim, Gottfried and Herman Petrasch were living in a mining camp on the outskirts of Helena, Montana in 1892. Earl Hatt actually delivered the letter to the Petraches, that Rhiney Petrasch had written to them telling the story about Waltz's death and the Mine.

Apparently Julia Thomas & Rhiney Petrasch, concerned about Waltz's comment that they couldn't do anything with the mine because they weren't Miners, and already having failed to locate two caches Waltz was supposed to have made and given them directions to, decided to write to Rhiney's Father (Gottfried) and Brother (Hermann) and ask them to come to Arizona and help them find and work the Mine. The letter contained a list of Landmarks in the general area around the Mine supposedly to convince Gottfried & Hermann that finding the Mine would not be as much of a problem as they had experienced in looking for the caches.

When Earl Hatt delivered that letter to the Petrasch's they opened it in his presence and found it to be almost illegible to any one of them individually because it was written in a combination of English and German. The Three of them worked together to decipher the German parts of the letter and make a copy of it that was all in English. In the end, Earl was invited to join the Petrasch's, and go with them to Arizona as a partner in the mine, but he declined the invitation, and attempted to talk them out of uprooting themselves and making such a long journey in search of something that Rhiney had already failed to locate and might not actually exist.

Remaining determined to go to Arizona and having nothing else of value to offer Earl in return for tutoring services he had provided them during the course of their friendship, and as a gesture of their trust in him, they insisted that he keep the copy of the letter (which they considered to be of great value) that Earl had completely converted to English, in case he ever changed his mind.

They stressed the fact that if something should happen to them on their trip that would prevent them from ever reaching Arizona, He could, at any later Date, go to Phoenix, Arizona find Rhiney, show him the copy of the letter, and Rhiney would know that he had been a trusted friend of theirs in Montana and be received by Rhiney as he would have been received by Gottfried and Hermann themselves. The Petrasch's left for Arizona, and Earl Hatt never heard from them again.

Earl Hatt kept the copy of the letter hoping to someday read about his friends and the rich gold mine they left Montana to search for, but the news never came.

As Arthur Earl Hatt (Son of Earl Arthur and Grandfather of Jim Hatt) was growing up, he heard the story of the Petrasch's repeated many times by his father whenever there were headlines about a Gold Strike somewhere in the Southwest, but his friend’s names would never be included in the story. Some time circa.1956 Arthur Earl obtained a copy of Sims Ely’s book and made the connection between the name Petrasch and what has become known as The Lost Dutchman Mine.

When Jim told me this story, he added that he had never disclosed the intimate details of it to anyone and had only discussed the general details of it to a few individuals. He further stated that he did not know who Thomas Glover was prior to his first book being published, had never talked to him or corresponded with him in any way and did not know who Glover’s source was for the version of the story as it appears in his book.


The following is from the foreword of Jim Hatt’s book about the Peralta Stone Maps.


“Jim Hatt first heard the story about the Lost Dutchman Mine from his great-grandfather Earl Arthur Hatt in 1956. Earl had personally known and been close friends with members of the Petrasch family who were among some of the earliest searchers for the lost mine of Jacob Waltz (the Dutchman). Earl maintained little more than a casual interest in what eventually grew to be one of the most famous legends in the entire history of lost mines in the Southwest. The story smoldered through four generations of the Hatt family until it fell upon Jim’s ears and burned into his soul. Jim dreamed of going to Arizona and searching for the lost mine all of his life, but it was not until 1989 when his children were grown and a long period of being a single parent ended and left him free to pursue his own dreams. “


redison
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Post by TGH »

GoodBye
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Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

Yes indeedy!

So, if Rhiney wrote the letter and filled it with clues to entice Hermann and Gottfried to come to Arizona, I wonder how much embelleshment was added to make it sound more attractive?
And, back to SC's question, I wonder if that was the origin of the German Clues, at least in part?

Wooh! We're right on the verge of... something... here, I can feel it!
-Wiz
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Post by CuMiner »

Cu
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redison
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Post by redison »

Wiz wrote: I wonder if that was the origin of the German Clues, at least in part? -Wiz
Highly unlikely Wiz since the younger Hatt never saw the clues in their German form if he ever did see them at all.

CuMiner

Obviously the Petrasch's ALL knew everything that was in the letter. Plus the additional things Rhiney and Julia knew. If they couldn't find it with all that info it is doubtful that the younger Hatt could stroll in there 100 years later and walk right up to it. I am more intrigued by what he may have found that made him such a strong believer in the stone maps.

R
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Post by CuMiner »

Cu
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Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

redison wrote:
Wiz wrote: I wonder if that was the origin of the German Clues, at least in part? -Wiz
Highly unlikely Wiz since the younger Hatt never saw the clues in their German form if he ever did see them at all.
Well, I didn't think Jim Hatt was the source of the GC, but who knows what rounds the letter, or copies of it, could have made in the last 100 years? They might have found their way anywhere. It would be interesting to see it. You didn't say anything, though, that suggested that Hatt has actually seen the letter.
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Post by redison »

CuMiner,

That is an interesting speculation! I had never entertained the thought that he may have come to Az. allready a believer in the stone maps. He could have seen the Life Magazine article on them at some point in time and made some kind of connection I guess. Maybe if we bounce this around enough something will shake out of it?


Wiz,

For that to be the case, someone would have had to translate the all English version of the letter that the elder Hatt had back into German somewhere along the line. How would they know which parts to convert?

I can't imagine Julia and Rhiney using any German unless they felt the need to repeat something just the way waltz had said it to them. I can easily imagine Waltz not knowing the right word(s) in English to describe a landmark or phrase a thought, and mixing some German into his directions here and there, but to attempt to figure out where that took place and put the German back in once it had been taken out would take a lot of speculation. No reason someone could not just convert it all to German though.

R
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S.C.
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Letter

Post by S.C. »

redison,

Very interesting post.

Thanks for sharing that.

Steve
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